Glider Culture Autopsy

This is merely a thread where I will be musing on what Glider culture was like, prior to things going decidedly egg-shaped...do not expect any coherence, this is me attempting to flesh out my gangling mall goth elves while I write The Lefthand Way. Feel free to interject, or eviscerate my interpretations as needed.

So, what we have here is a sedentary hunter-gatherer culture, supplemented by tribute provided by humans and presumably whatever they can grow in mountain gardens. They have some means of producing alcohol, and appear to have access to seafood in addition to game. Highly developed skills in architecture and clothing (though a very limited color palate because they're all Edgelords with an Aesthetic).

Essentially their entire culture is derived from a strange combination of collective trauma and ancestor worship; they are hellbent on protecting the ways of the High Ones and creating a state of perfect safety, so their immortal people need not fear death. An entire culture based on maintaining distance from their present world in order to be close to a lost world.

I'd go so far as to say that the Firstcomers and that first generation after them definitely have some sort of deep-seated trauma from the harshness of those first on Abode; they barely know how to function in these meat-suits on this particular planet, let alone contend with an enemy that is far stronger and more prolific/adapted to this planet. They haven't known death in thousands of years, their powers barely work, and they are one wrong step from starving to death.

This is the state that Voll and Winnowill and their agemates are born into. Not much of a childhood, if you're parents don't know what to do with you and you're in daily danger of being wiped out either by humans or banal things like sickness and hunger. Everyone you know dies around you, or breaks away never to be seen again. I almost don't blame them for going as hard as they could in the opposite way.

So. Gliders lose a lot of people and resolve to retreat to an elegant tomb. Prior to that? OQ shows us that there are magic shaped domains in the land around Blue Mountain, and Voll's flashbacks show them living in a forest. I've always imagined them being semi-nomadic during this time, and placing heavy emphasis on hunting and the accompanying prestige of being a good hunter (like whalers had on Nantucket back in 1800s America).

I feel like there would be a bit of a gender divide in terms of tasks around camp, with the male proto-Gliders being the primary hunters/warrior types while female proto-Gliders guarded camp and made sure they didn't starve. At least initially, they had very low numbers so women were encouraged to stay closer to the campsite to mind the children; as they expanded, more lasses joined in on the stabbing enterprises.

From what we see of Winnowill of this time, she seemed to primarily stay out of direct conflict. This makes sense since it's smart to not risk the medic, and all. Also I personally headcanon Voll as weirdly chivalrous/mildly sexist when it comes to her specifically. He doesn't doubt the capabilities of his female warriors in slightest, it's just the thought of Winnowill in battle upsets him deeply, both because he adores her and would never forgive himself if she got hurt and because the idea of his gentle Lady getting her hands bloody is unsettling. (I have a lot of Opinions re:Voll's image of Winnowill vs Winnowill's actual personality and how he wanted children with her and she's all "we've literally walled ourselves into a tomb and you want to knock me up??? REALLY????")

Glider culture seems to be pretty stratified in ways that the Wolfriders and Sunfolk and Go-Backs aren't, with a Lord (and his Lady I will die on this hill) and a group of elite warriors/providers, with the rest of the tribe striving to provide for this elite group. Voll allegedly had the most power, with Winnowill as the brains of the operation his advisor, maybe his ONLY advisor, and the elite warrior group obeying without question. A far cry from the Wolfriders sitting together to talk things out, or the various forms of leadership in the Sun Village. The Glider Lord might be chosen by the Glider people, but their rule is unquestioned. Even Voll didn't take "no" for an answer. Winnowill ruled with fear, Voll ruled through kindness coupled with sheer bloody-mindedness.

Also can we talk about how blood-thirsty these edgelords are? My goodness. At the start of "Lair of the Bird Spirits" it's not just Winnowill and Kureel who are down to kill Briersting--Voll finds it perfectly acceptable as well. He doesn't even reprimand them or even correct them; he accepts it. "A life for a life...it is only just!" They are a people who accept a mentality of retaliation, potentially a policy left over from their time before the Mountain. It could be that Voll is under Winnowill's influence, or is too depressed to do anything to stop the revenge killing, but it could very well be built in.

Also this is purely my headcanon with minimal textual support, but honor is a big deal among the Gliders. Voll in particular values it and attempts to behave in an honorable way towards the Wolfriders. He despises dishonesty and seeks to make amends. I like to think other Gliders (who aren't Winnowill, who was always the strategist to Voll's dreamer even when they were children) also seek to behave in an honorable manner. I'm not saying they duel ritualistically to settle differences...but 100% they duel ritualistically to settle differences.

Holy hell this got long. TL;DR: Gliders are a culture that glorifies their martial class and essentially worship their ancestors, and avenge perceived wrongs with swift, sometime brutal retaliation. There is an attitude of collective trauma/grief influencing their society, and loyalty to one's Lord is highly prized. Feel free to refute, debate, critique, etc. This is just a place for me to put my Glider headcanons while I try to give them a personality beyond Racist Bastards in my AU.

It's an excellent description. Winnowill telling the Wolfriders "We are the High Ones", or something to that effect, sums up their arrogance.

The Gliders were trying to be Medieval lords and ladies in a Stone Age existence. Their peasants aren't even of their own species.

They want the lifestyle, but other than keeping giant prehistoric birds, they don't seem to have any concept of agriculture.

They also placed too much emphasis upon being Gliders. All adult Wolfriders rode wolves, and most hunted. However, we see specialists with a diversity of skills that are just as important.

Without human interference, the Wolfriders could have lived forever in a sustainable manner.

Quote :

The Gliders were trying to be Medieval lords and ladies in a Stone Age existence. Their peasants aren't even of their own species.

UGH YES HOW DO YOU ARTICULATE IT SO WELL GOD. Which makes me wonder what society was structured like back on Starhome or wherever; the Firstcomers had the aesthetic of the Medieval period but what about the social structure? Or did the Gliders just kind of reinvent it? Also the Gliders are the only elfin society we see that enslaves others, including other elves. That's, uh...that's certainly terrible.

Also, once Voll splits for the North with half the fighting/hunting force of the tribe...are the Gliders okay? Like...are they okay? I mean, Canonically they aren't because Winnowill wakes up, realizes her husband is dead, and cuts the breaks on her DIY Palace project which...doesn't end well for the tribe as a whole.

In The Lefthand Way (TLW) things progress the same way as Canon, except Winnowill stalks follows Voll North with the Chosen, and they're all gone a lot longer than the Chosen were in Canon. So Blue Mountain has effectively lost both their official and unofficial leader and about half their fighting/hunting force. I guess I'm wondering what an insular people like that would do in the event of a power vacuum. Voll (and Winnowill) ran things, and there's no heir to step up...what sort of governance would emerge? Would the remaining Chosen step up and train some extra hunters? Who the hell will feed the Doors, Brace, and Egg????

I'm just so, so curious about ways such a stolid, traditionalist tribe would react to a major political upheaval, especially after centuries of apathy and not participating in the ruling process.

Also, what would happen when the human pets find themselves abandoned?  Especially the young ones who found life in Blue Mountain was not the endless sleepover party they were expecting?

I am deeply invested in the idea of a schism forming among the Hoan G'Tay Sho, within and without the mountain. Some of the youngsters within the mountain nail their 95 theses to the door start speculating about the fact that these spirits certainly don't seem to know what in hell they're doing now that the lord and his hunters have left, stirring up unrest. A revolution in miniature begins, perhaps. They would want answers, and to return to the outside. They would be heretics among their tribe, which could lead to a cultural division maybe?

I wonder just how "faithful" some of the humans were, particularly those who had lived longest in the mountain, or who spent the most time with Winnowill. Presumably they live very closely with the elves, and are likely privy to their limitations. Kakuk seems to know Winnowill's moods very well, and she reflects on the fact that she never needs to lie to them to have their trust. It's a sick and unbalanced relationship, but the implication is that they are at the least very familiar with each other...surely they started having doubts about the infallibility of their bird spirits.

ALSO, was there stratification among the humans sent to live in Blue Mountain? Like, were Winnowill's servants considered more highly among their community than, say, someone who helped tend birds in the Aerie, or who tended gardens? I absolutely believe that Winnowill would observe these miniature social conflicts with rapacious fascination, and would want 1000% of The Tea from her handmaidens...I'm probably giving her far too much credit, but I don't think she would actively influence the conflicts of the humans. Partially because it would ruin the surprise of whatever they would do, and partially because...her humans like her. They are probably the only people in Blue Mountain aside from Voll who liked and trusted her on any level. She could be something like her old self to them, and that held some value to her. IDK.

Anyway now I want to write about the Great Reformation of the Hoan G'Tay Sho.

Every time I re-read the original quest, I get the feeling the Blue Mountain elves vs Wofriders clash..
..represents the clash between the 'civilized' and the ones perceived as 'not civilized'.
"Savages", as Winnowill so crudely expresses..

Getting shelter in Blue Mountain is an extreme solace, but that society is very well organized, and Aroree tries and explain it to Skywise: " Oh! We DO things.. in ways you can barely understand. "

But the truth is ugly: there are no more children, inside that evolved and wonderful elfin society.
Voll: " We are dying, though unable to die. "

What follows is but the classic plot, where the civilized ones suddenly see an opportunity and totally RUSH for it..
..while the 'un-civilized' know the harsh reality all too well and try and warn..
..all to no avail. Until the final catastrophe.

But all of this HIDES many-many-many interesting elements from the past, especially:
. How did Voll and Winnowill convince so many elves of following them into that stony tomb?
. "Why did so few heed my warnings? " asks himself Voll: WHERE did the ones who REFUSED to join Voll GO?.. and what actually happened to them, all along the millenias?
. WHAT did Voll ONCE try? ( "It has begun.. again!", "Voll dreams his dream of old" )

Besides, have a look at king Guttlekraw's trolls: they are USED to war, brutal, very well armed, and the king himself even says this, eventually: " KILL THEM! Or it will be the end of our reign and the return of theirs! "
Look at the huge efforts for SHIELDING the Palace, while it was only a RUIN!
This obviously hides a hidden element:
The trolls and the elves had FOUGHT a war, already, some time before the original quest's time. And, if you pay attention, a war NOT simply between the pitiful band of 'Go-Backs' and Guttlekraw's army of trolls.

Also.. Look at Savah's PAST: she and the survivors of the long cross of the desert..
..obviously came from an already VERY civilized elfin population.

My guess is that at least one great elfin civilization existed, and they tried to get the Palace back..
..and they succeeded, long ago, ruling over the trolls for long..
..trying desperately to awaken the Palace's power, but without success..
..but they ended vanquished by the trolls.

Some time AFTER that, Winnowill finally discovers the trolls, Smelt, and she even gives birth to Two-Edge..
..and she learns MANY secrets, she learns MUCH of all of those past events..
..and she unfortunately draws the WRONG conclusions.


...

But I also noticed that Wendy was VERY good at harping on the readers' emotions..
..in order to KEEP all of this hidden.

The Gliders and the Go-Backs to me were created as mirror cultures of the Sunfolk and Wolfriders.
Sunfolk and Wolfriders were willing to accept change and grow,while Gliders and Go-Backs stagnated and degenerated. In terms of Element/Season I thought of the 4 original tribes as this---------------------
Wolfriders=Spring/Earth,Sunfolk=Summer/Fire,Gliders=Fall/Air and Go-Backs=Winter/Water. Now granted the Gliders came across as refined,snobbish,martial,class-conscious,obedient and honor bound to an extent while Go-Backs were rowdy,crass,callous,hardened and brutal. They were the reflections of what the Sunfolk and Wolfriders could become if they weren't willing to change.

I'm fascinated by what everyone has to say about the Glider culture. Prism's post reminded me that the Go-Backs and the Gliders never actually encountered each other as tribes.

Incidentally, I wonder if any of Winnowill's human pets actually knew how to leave Blue Mountain, or if it were possible to do so? She must have made it impossible for them to leave on their own.

Trollbabe: I absolutely agree that Winnowill probably did her utmost to make sure that no one could leave the mountain. And the older/more faithful generation probably did not think too much about leaving...but there had to have been at least some teenagers in the human population, and there is no greater escape artist in nature than the adolescent human. now i want to write a crackfic where an increasingly frustrated Winnowill attempts to teen-proof the mountain to no avail

Winnowill was the primary point of contact for the humans in Blue Mountain, but what of the other elves? I'm sure some friendships (or...less savory relationships) were made between the two groups.

Prism: I actually really love the idea that both the Go-Backs and the Gliders exist as foils to the Wolfriders and Sun Folk respectively. The Go-Backs are at least partially framed as "good guys" who have adapted to the WoTM...but once their main goal as a tribe is gone there are growing pains as they attempt to adapt again. I am deeply grieved that the Go-Backs and Gliders never really had a chance to interact in Canon. I would have loved to see Kahvi and Winnowill try to kill each other have a frank exchange of opinions, or even Kahvi and Voll.

PCoquelin: The more you discuss the "it begins...again" theory the more enamored I become of it. Because, really, I can't see the proto-Gliders NOT attempting to go home at least once. They gear up, form an expedition...and things go very, very wrong. Perhaps that loss is what triggered the final withdrawal from Abode by the Gliders, and the Rootless Ones splintering off.

While it is true that the Go-Backs and Gliders never interacted as tribes,there were a few interactions.....
Kahvi and Aroree when they met,Kahvi was intending to use her,then they became friends after living together in a cave for 2 decades,then Kahvi and Tyldak got together and we all agree that he was the love of her life and vise versa. And of course,we have the weird hate/hate?,bdsm? relationship between Chot and male Door. And Aroree definitely had no problem living with the remnants of Go-Backs. Maybe the Go-Backs and Gliders would have complemented each other. Either that or a very volatile,teeth-gritting relationship of Snob vs Slob which to us the audience would be hilarious.

Those are fair points Prism (god I forgot how hard I ship Kahvi/Tyldak). I guess I was thinking the Gliders in general meeting with the Go-Backs, rather than their outliers/survivors.

There would be teeth-clenched teamwork between the two groups, but I feel like they would compliment each other as you said. I interpret the Gliders as valuing honor very highly, and the Go-Backs are similar.

"Snob versus Slob" - ROFL!!

Arill3.0 wrote:

...and the Rootless Ones splintering off.

That was meant to be a pun, right?

In the "Hidden Years" story of "Little Patch", Auroree reveals that she had been "familiar" with Winnowill's human pets. So there was sexual contact between at least one Glider and the humans.

As far as managing teen humans inside Blue Mountain, I can hear Winnowill muttering under her breath about her "gifts" of youth and beauty. Having been a foster parent, I can say that it's a major challenge to keep teen boys and teen girls far enough apart to avoid having even more kids to wrangle.

Trollbabe wrote:

As far as managing teen humans inside Blue Mountain, I can hear Winnowill muttering under her breath about her "gifts" of youth and beauty. Having been a foster parent, I can say that it's a major challenge to keep teen boys and teen girls far enough apart to avoid having even more kids to wrangle.

First of all, my hat's off to you for being a foster parent! Second of all, I almost choked to death on my cup of tea at the mental image of Winnowill trying to keep randy teenagers under control.

Though now of course my brain is saying "We both know she's an awful person and would totally 'breed' her favorite humans together to see what would happen." and now I'm slightly nauseous. Actually, there must be some Blue Mountain humans who were born inside the mountain itself, surely? They send in enough attractive folks in the prime of their life...in a strange new situation...it's bound to have happened. (Oh god ew ew Gliders treating human babies as like puppies or "replacement" babies ew ew ew why do I do this to myself???)

Also squinting at the inherent power imbalances involved in any Glider/Hoan G'Tay Sho pairing. That gives me A: the heebies, B: the jeebies.

Quite frankly one could turn out a decent horror story writing about life inside Blue Mountain from a human captive's point of view. Particularly if they start out very faithful and excited to be there. I've always wondered what Winnowill was like from a Hoan G'Tay Sho POV...very friendly and kind, initially, but with dead eyes like a shark, and the unspoken guarantee that she would vivisect you for her own amusement in a heartbeat.

Thank you. We had custody of a pregnant runaway for a few months. We took her in on two days' notice and never regretted it.

I wonder how long Nonna's tribemates would hang on to the notion of it being a privelege to live inside the mountain with the Bird Spirits. For the young, it must have been quite a let-down, unless Winnowill used some combination of drugs and healing-induced euphoria to keep them from wanting to leave. For the rest, indoor plumbing and a roof that doesn't leak was probably incentive enough.

Did those initiated into servitude fantasize that they would ride on the Great Birds with the Bird Spirits? Nobody ever waved down to them and yelled, "Hi, Mom!"

I always wondered why Nonna and Adar, not fitting into Adar's tribe, didn't just go live with Nonna's tribe. It looks as if Adar was on good terms with his in-laws. In a stone age existence, being a couple of hermits greatly reduced their chances of survival. I think that it was just a convenient plot device.

When the Hoan G'Tay Sho placed their people on stone altars and offered them to the Bird Spirits, never to be seen again, were they that much better than people of ancient times sacrificing their children to Baal?


I'm reading the second of two books on slavery in the American South. If Winnowill breeding slave children is distasteful to you, let me say that what I've read so far would give you nightmares.

One incentive Winnowil might have for breeding humans is the fact that they are given at all aspects of their lifespan which might fascinate the stagnant Gliders. I got the impression that Winnowil initially was easier on the humans than the Gliders. Which leads me to wander if a Glider/Go-Back tribal meeting wouldn't be too bad. Plenty of elf children from the very fertile Go-Backs that the childless Gliders might appreciate. After all,they were envious of Ember and Suntop and Voll was very happy/shocked to learn Tyldak Recognized Dewshine. So,maybe a Glider/Go-Back union wouldn't be too bad. The main issue would be with magic...................Go-Backs scorn magic while Gliders are reliant upon it.

Trollbabe: The humans we see in Winnowill's service seem to be very devoted to her, but all of them seem to be in their late twenties and upward (I love Kakuk, by the way, he gives off such Dad Energy). We really don't see anyone younger, do we? So either they were very devout to begin with, or they "drank the koolaid" as a coping mechanism. Though I agree that the idea of a safe stronghold and food security would be a pretty good incentive.

I also always thought that the humans went because they thought that they would receive some form of favor from the spirits for their devotion. Perhaps a chance to bond with the great birds and become spirit protectors themselves, or perhaps even long life and health. I think Winnowill's ability to ease pain/cure illness may have gone a long way towards guaranteeing the loyalty of the Hoan G'Tay Sho; a tangible "miracle" that directly helped them in times of need. I was horrified and fascinated by the fact that Winnowill has a chamber where she brings the humans to die. Is this to perhaps preserve a myth ("I am taking him into the heart of the mountain to remake him into a spirit."), or is it a weird form of palliative care she provides as a means of satiating her healing power/looking after people and making her feel better about herself?

Prism: I think the Gliders would definitely envy the Go-Backs their many children while simultaneously being horrified at their disdain for magic. I'm envisioning a Glider essentially going full evangelical on assorted Go-Backs, attempting to bring them around to the wonders of Elfin Ancestral Power.

...aaaaaand now I'm envisioning a buddy-cop comedy situation where a prim and proper magically talented Glider teams up with a rough-and-ready combat expert Go-Back so they can solve crimes. The Glider can levitate as well as float and they use this power to hurl their Go-Back friend at their enemies YEET

[quote="Arill3.0]
...aaaaaand now I'm envisioning a buddy-cop comedy situation where a prim and proper magically talented Glider teams up with a rough-and-ready combat expert Go-Back so they can solve crimes. The Glider can levitate as well as float and they use this power to hurl their Go-Back friend at their enemies YEET[/quote]

GO FOR IT!!!! lol!

Oh! But it seems Winnowill did have some occasions for fun..

Ok but I'm extremely fixated on the implied relationship between OQ Winnowill and her human captives because she is deriving some form of emotional benefit from the interaction. She takes some form of pride in having never lied to them in order to get their loyalty (making them think you're a god [i]is[i] lying, Winnowill, but ok), and seems to have a more "positive" relationship with Kakuk than with her fellow elves (in the same way one might have a positive relationship with a songbird). She values their trust in her, and uses her healing gifts to help as well as harm.

I'm not saying this is a good thing, by the by. This is not a "Awww look how nice she is to humans!" moment, this is "Winnowill is literally treating people like pets to fill the emotional void where her interpersonal relationships with her own species ought to be and that's evil" moment.

I do wonder if she used the humans as guinea pigs in healing experiments, and she goes through a quite a lot of them. Maybe that's what happens to the humans who lose their faith and start asking too many questions.

This sums it all up:

My duty is now clear: A) Write the funny thing where Winnowill tries and fails to keep the teenaged captives under control B)Write the terrifying thing where Winnowill experiments on "faithless" human captives. Possibly this will end up being the same story. Who knows.

Back to the original musings on Glider culture: I'm wondering what the music is like. By the time of OQ Winnowill reflects on the fact that the Gliders make music seldom, and that it's "subtle" (whatever that means--must not have any decent percussion). When they did make music, what sort of music was it? As the group that is, ostensibly, the closest to the High Ones culturally maybe the Gliders have more songs from the original starhome, things they sing but don't always make sense as they are separated from the cultural context.

My personal headcanon is that there is a long song, or series of songs, that record orally what they would later record in the Egg. Lamentations for every soul lost, for the home that was taken from them. Also records of great deeds--the taming of the first hawk, say, or the slaying of a ferocious animal or the founding of the mountain itself. They're the only tribe we see that is obsessed with remembering, with archiving, for all the good it does them, so it stands to reason that they would keep a meticulous oral tradition.

...are there Glider academics? Who debate over the merits of one song or another? One thing to be said for immortality is that you don't necessarily have to worry about your primary sources dying on you. Oh, gods, imagine a scholar trying to talk to Voll or Winnowill about the minutiae of some historical event and being told off for bothering them with that garbage again.

Or, no, I actually see them getting into an argument about how a specific event went down. Winnowill would probably call events into question purely to fuck with Voll for sport. Or to gaslight him and make him mistrust his own memories wow I made myself sad again.

One of the reasons Troll culture thrives is that we remember our mistakes. Maggoty is good at remembering Picknose's failures, but it's not exclusive to her. The important thing is not the dates or details, but what we learn from the dead.

Another thing that benefits Troll culture is healthy competition. Just as the Sun Folk have the log-rolling game, we too have games of skill. We also have craft competitions for which we are judged. Strong young Trolls hold organized tunnel-digging competitions, one reason why enslaving rock-shaping Elves is frowned upon by today's Troll.

Regarding teenage Elves, it seems to me that any collection of humans of both genders, including fertile females, is likely to result in large numbers of offspring. Elf years to human years is like human years to rabbit or rodent years.

Winnowill might have "spayed and neutered" her human pets without telling them. I wouldn't put it past her.