A funny thought on mortal vs immortal.

if they all were to become humans in their next life, you can tell who is who because the mortal ones will focus on their current life while the immortal ones will concern themselves with past lives.

Make of that what you will.....

Hmm.. I dont really ascribe to the whole reincarnation concept, personally, and somehow even though I can "plug in to " fiction as a sort of alternate reality when experiencing (reading or writing or pondering) I still dont generally wrap my mind around the concept well, so I cant "se" what a reincarnated elf as human would be like, unfortunately. But to a degree what you point out was highlihted in Dreamtime with the "immortal souls" dreaming of the future and the "mortal souls" as otherwise. Which reminds me... I need to re-read that with the current context of Cutter against his experience at that time.. Hmm...

What I thought this would be is a discussion of how an immortal elf's body would have challenges dealing with healing, dealingwith change, etc. These are the things I ponder on a far too regular basis, and have many thoughts on, some funny/humorous (such as an elf like Ekuar being immortal but still aging... His face wrinkles, does everything else stay in place or does sagging affect an immortal) to the serious (how does dentl hygiene affect an immortal's teeth? Does immortality imply magical healing or does a cavity or a lot tooth just be a lost tooth eventually, and wouldn't that mean all immortals would eventually become toothless, cataract affected, liver spotted, wrinkly old codgers yelling at the kids to get off the lawn?)

This will keep me up tonight. Ill try to give some thought to hypothetical reincarnation, especially since there really isnt much stopping it in Elfquest...

Sorandril wrote:

if they all were to become humans in their next life ...

Simple: for elves, there is no "next" life.
Only one.
So they live it fully.

Wouldnt explain things where im coming from oh well.

Personally think the concepts of recognition and soul names make no sense without that framework.

Sorandril wrote:

Wouldnt explain things where im coming from oh well.

Personally think the concepts of recognition and soul names make no sense without that framework.

Are you meanng from a perspective of the soul name being the name of the creature's soul, that would remain unchanged even if reborn? If you could explain your position more it might help come to a solution.

Possible spoilers:

Personally I love considering all sorts of frameworks both fictional and otherwise, but in doing so I explore things only from within the provided framework. Within EQ, we are never shown anyone to have shared a soul name across time, and it appears that the living elves (and otherwise interactive spirits) dont find any spirits 'missing' side from Cutter's, and this is due to a misunderstanding among those who dont know what was going on.

There was some discussion on the forum and even within the story itself about wether or not elves outside of wolfriders have soul names beyond given names. This is a subject that has had a lot of discussion over the years that I wont go into (cant remember it all anyway), and I think it has been stated explicitly that humans have no soul names, beyond possibly whatever they are passionate about (hidden years I believe, regarding the music one boy played). Within the framework of the story, the elfin soul is eternal, even among wolfriders that do not return to the palace, theres no considerstion within the story for amything else. Even the spirits that are silent within the palace are considered to be in a deep slumber like state, still accounted for but silent.

Im not saying I dont want to hear your perspective, on the contrary, Id like to know how having a soul name implies reincarnation, this seems like too far of a logical leap for me to follow without a bridge, perhaps a nice walking bridge with placards along the way describing what Im seeing?

Again, while Im not one that really ascribes to actual reincarnation, and the mechanics are well beyond my imagination, exploring such things within a story is fascinating and intriguing, and I would love to hear your thoughts.

As to the Recognition part of things, its always been a wierd thing thst doesnt seem to have any fixed rules.  It makes a kind of sense from a multiplayer video game perspective, where the game engine would only allow certain PCs and NPCs to combine and result in a new character for a player to play (explored this heavily when I tried to make an EW based game) but thats with actual real world players essentially taking the place of thr character's souls, not souls with wills of their own. Ive never made heads or tails of Recognition outside of a plot device to make story telling more interesting.

Soul names were far more "realistic" from my younger self's point of view, as I was hoping to meet someone Id have some inexplainable connection so they would "get" my inner self and understand me. From a romantic storytelling point of view it has a huge draw, but as a function of reproduction in elfquest it can get plain wierd. Especially if you try to fit in some kind of Darwinian type selective "fittest" type thing: it implies there is some sort of overseeing matchmaker actively putting one and one together (or perhaps two and one in some cases) to put some sort of best case scenario together... BUT only sometimes, when it feels like it, from a really far ways away (presuming it was something like the temporally active Scroll of Colors, which wsnt close to the Wolfriders or Sarrows End but WAS close to the Go-backs that did not experience recognition... See... It doesnt have rules that make sense utsode of Plot Device).

As to a hypothetical situation as I have reread your original post... Its hard to say. Dreamtime is the defining "what does mortal/immortal mean to an Elf soul?' And it is explored even more thoroughly in the following stories as various things come to be (searcher and sword being the summation of Treestump's dream of swinging metal, seems to me)

But on the other hand, it also begs the question: its implied that some, suc as Pike, who are imortal in spirit, had immortal dreams, but they never really nail down HOW mortal the wolfriders are... They imply that a generation or two died at the sun village over the course of what...10000 years or so? Begetting what it is, that still implies thousands of years, the bowls of pebbles imply thousands of years,and the trolls who were believed to be mortal are revield to be at least long lived on the 20000 year range... Begs a lot of questions... Maybe the bowls would have never stopped getting bigger if it werent for unfortunate circumstances perhaps instead of old age that killed them?

Remember Leetah had faced death head on and explored it very deeply, peehaps ther is more to heaelong than sensing the mortality of a physical body, but somehow she saw Cutter's end through time in her own way, not understanding what she saw.. Maybe she was seeing the future in a way and saw that the wolfriders would die because of their lifestyle more than wolf blood aging them out. Did we ever see a wolfrider actually die of old age? Keep in mind the bowls scene was just implied o one actually said " and then one morning we found him old and wrinkled, dead from age related organ failure and not from the tuff-cat tracks where one carried him off and ate him"

Not wanting to hijack the thread more or snything, but at the same time I dont think this post is important enough to start a new thread of such a similar subject.

i have had a lot of thought on immortality in general and specifically to Elfquest as well, what it would mean philosophically, biologically, physically, and so on. Was kond of wondering what anyone else thought of it.

For the Elves in Elfquest, I get the impression that a form of magical self healing as the mechanism behind the "immortality" among them. Science cant really make a good definition when "just magic" is involved, but thr "healong" part of magical healing is easier to target.

Healing, as in the repair of damage caused by abuse, is scientifically the generation of new tissue to replace or stitch together tissue that was supposed to be together in the first place (and sometimes stuff thst isnt supposed to be stuck together, when things go wrong). Strictly speaking this holds true for everything from a scratch from tree bark, a broken bone, a puncture wound, muscle strain, bruising, and most other anomalies. This does not always result in scar tissue, but usually does. This contributes to aging effects.

Rapid healing (think wolverine or deadpool) in the strictest sense should be accompanied by just as rapid of aging. That doesnt make good stories, though, so we have other ways to explain it, usually "because the ods (script) demands it". Magic should imply some sort of will imposed on the repair, however, and in the way of "flesh shaping" implies the individual (internal or external) will would force growth along guidelines outside of nature. (This cell goes here, not two cells, I dont wanna have wrinkles!)

But the Trolls have no magic. Magicless immortality would require immutable biology. This would mean they could not heal or would take a very long time to heal to slow aging effects.

I should back up a moment: everything ages, wears out, fades away... Nothing is immortal in the sensenthat it will actually last for the full remaining age of the universe. In order to last that long, it would either need to be made so it wont lose any parts of itself (evaporation, decomposition, destruction, mutation) or has to continuously maintain itself. The problem with either is that it implies there is something eternal that can be used as a comparison to test for immortality. How can you know you are maintaining yourself in an ideal sense if you dont have the standard available to check against? How can you be sure that an immutable object has not changed either unless your standard is also immutable?

Each of these have issues, and this trope is at the heart of EQ: mortality vs immortality. The "mortal" live more, story wise, because nothing stays the same, and change equals experience. The immortal cant follow, due to a percieved chance of loss of a greater amount of life (infinity is always more than less than infinity, in perception at least).

Anyway, my long winded posts have never been a forum favorite (other forums, at the least), and Im on my phone, so Ill leave it there. I could probably write for days about this subject, for all the intriguing implications it brings, but I was wondering what anyone else thinks?

As a dungeon master ( for decades ), I have long been studying the case of elves, in AD&D.
To me, their incredible lifespan ( up to 1,200 years for grey elves! ) can be explained only by a very effective cellular regeneration, including nerve cells and neurons.
It would also explain a lot of other elements defining elves, for instance:
when your neurons regenerate, it tends to affect your memories, be they long term or short term ones, thus creating a very chaotic mindset ; it would also explain why they do not physically degenerate like humans.

For Tolkien, the elves are immortal.
For Wendy, the elves are shapechangers ( even if they don't know it ) with extreme lifespan ( at least some millenias, considering the case of Lord Voll; oooold, but still active ), or descendants of shapechangers : a VERY special case of 'elves'...

There’s evidence this regeneration is partially due to the HIF gene. One piece of which is Ember giggling thinking about snow, the other being my outfit in Book 4 while way up north.

Note this is Wendy writing in more -actual- elf stuff in sideways...

My hubby once said on the subject of immortal elves that they must be terrified of a fatal accident or being killed. Because living immortally this must inevitably happen to them one day. Unless they can be preserved in the wrapstuff and even then they are not immune to attacks or an accident from outside.

PCoquelin wrote:

Sorandril wrote:

if they all were to become humans in their next life ...

Simple: for elves, there is no "next" life.
Only one.
So they live it fully.

I disagree.

Clearly their spirits go to the Palace. As we've seen.

So they're "living" in a state of unliving.

And if they don’t come back how is Pike immortal in spirit???

I think we found something here...

In Pike's case, the phrase 'Immortal in spirit' isn't a reference to his actual spirit (which, as a wolfrider, has been covered in the series as being able to choose to go to the Palace or back to the Holt when/if he dies). It is a reference in his thought process and attitude in life, in that he does not fear death as such, he is optimistic and looks ahead to a bright future, instead of, well, sort of brooding over impending doom. Treestump has been really long lived, and shows no sign of stopping (well, where I left off the series, at least), but he feared the destruction of his kin and way of life through progress. This doesn't reflect on the 'physics of the metaphysics of his soul' but rather a reflection of his fears. Pike has relatively few fears. Its hard to see him without a smile of his face and a fond story at the ready.

The authors have made it quite clear what happens to Elves when they die in the canonical story: Immortal elves go to the Palace when their bodies die, Wolfriders alone are able to choose, being both of the Palace and of the world, whether to return to the Palace or to wander the World of Two Moons for all time as disembodied spirits.

I figured you were asking 'what if (the above, stated, canon) wasn't true, and elves reincarnated as humans?" This is pure spectuation for anyone, as a alternate reality of a fictional story, but these sort of discussions are fun, brain teasing, and allows one to reflect on what they believe and why. I love speculating the 'what ifs' (much to my teacher's displeasure growing up), but as I said I have no perspective when it comes to reincarnation.

From a fictional AU/Species-bender, purely 'what if' situation, it would be fun to line up which Elves and Humans could be swapped around in the story, though. Such as, how would the situation have changed if Cutter and the Shaman were switched: A fanatical, kin-centric leader with a strong belief in a higher power swapped with a stubborn, tribally loyal leader with a unshakable faith in that which is above him... Which one is which, and which one is right?

Pike replacing Nonna (She's the one that was painting the murals, right? if not, that's the one I mean). Winnowil swapped with the Bone Woman... Each one of these would be interesting to explore in fanfic. And I could even provide a canon-compatible AU reasoning for it: The palace being a time-traveling, multiverse tracking, spirit vessel that has already been through one loop of that world's history, why not another, meddling with all creature's spirits? I mean, it's just sitting there for 10000 years doing nothing, half sentient and has a global aura.... I could write that some time if I feel it. Canon-wise, though, it's pretty cut and dried as far as Elf spirits and what happens to them.

Trolls, Humans, and Preservers, though... that's up for anything you want to imagine. (We only know of one, unnamed (as far as I know, but suspect it's the new one) preserver body in Future Quest, and we presume all other preservers are AOK. Plenty of deadies among the humans and trolls, though.)

"I figured you were asking 'what if (the above, stated, canon) wasn't true, and elves reincarnated as humans?" This is pure spectuation for anyone, as a alternate reality of a fictional story, but these sort of discussions are fun, brain teasing, and allows one to reflect on what they believe and why. I love speculating the 'what ifs' (much to my teacher's displeasure growing up), but as I said I have no perspective when it comes to reincarnation."

That would be pretty much what i was getting at....