Delayed/Cancelled Recognition

It seems to me kind of strange that this is the first time elves have cancelled a Recognition. If you think about it, Dewshine and Tyldak's recognition is only one of many that actively caused pain to the people who underwent it. Do you think this is a forgotten and rediscovered skill, or is it really the first time? And why didn't it occur to Leetah OR Winnowill that it might be better to end Dewshine and Tyldak's recognition rather than have both of them suffering the way they did?

When the High Ones crash landed there were very few survivors. They had to learn how to procreate again ... and I think the hostile and ALIEN environment cause a high child death rate. Recognition granted children - with the best possible chance to grow healthy and strong.

I think at this time each child of Recognition was too valuable for the survival of the tribe so that "turning off" was out of consideration. And then it became a rule: Recognition cannot be denied. A rule that was never questioned. And as child birth was still rare most of the time it still made sense.
In case it WAS done earlier ... it would have been kept secret.

Besides this - it might be rather challenging to turn off Recognition without doing further damage. The magic of the High Ones was weakend by the WoTMs ... and many of the elves in the following millennia had only weak, unreliable or hardly controllable skills. We know that Leetah wasn't aware about the full potential of her healer abilities before she learned from Winnowill and had her skills enhanced by the awakening Palace. Even when someone would have had the idea to ask - Leetah would not have thought it's possible.

And Winnowill ... who knows? Maybe she simply enjoyed this new exitement. More probably - she didn't dare. In case Voll had got word of this ... and he wanted children desperately!

Now times have changed. Needs have changed. Skills have changed. The Palace have changed possibilities. And still it seams that TWO healers were necessary to manage. Another reason that it has hardly happened before - healers were rare.

Just my two cents.

I don't think they could before it was done with Ember and Teir. It required two powerful healers and a part of the Palace nearby.

Besides; if they'd been able to "turn off" Dewshine's and Tyldak's Recognition there wouldn't even have been any need for this cancellation.

Embala wrote:

When the High Ones crash landed there were very few survivors. They had to learn how to procreate again ... and I think the hostile and ALIEN environment cause a high child death rate. Recognition granted children - with the best possible chance to grow healthy and strong.

But the flip side to that is - if a couple does NOT Recognize, even getting pregnant was nearly impossible right (such as the case for Nightfall and Redlance back in the Original Quest). So it seems like this idea of "Recognition" would be ideal, if it allowed them to continue to have children - but recognized parents bore a stronger child.

And as for cancelling Recognition - I think it also depends. After all, how were the Sunfolk completely devoid of being able to truly Recognize and yet bare as many children as they did? (I know Leetah Recognized Cutter - but I don't think Leetah's parents recognized one another, for example? I could be wrong?)

So it seems like the idea of being able to do away with Recognition is there.

Or you know, it could just be "dramatic writing".....

Tymber wrote:

But the flip side to that is - if a couple does NOT Recognize, even getting pregnant was nearly impossible right (such as the case for Nightfall and Redlance back in the Original Quest). So it seems like this idea of "Recognition" would be ideal, if it allowed them to continue to have children - but recognized parents bore a stronger child.

They lost the ability to have children outside recognition (to most extend) after they found a balance and adepted to the new world. And for me it makes perfect sense, Tymber. Elves are immortal. With the ability to procreate by will or even by chance frequently there would soon be over population. Recognition tends to replace those, who were lost ... and it granted the child the best possible start.

Blue Mountain was the extreme - a closed up community without danger and death means NO births at all.
The Go-Backs found another way. After death became frequent, even the rule they started to procreate outside Recognition ... but Go-Backs tend to die "young" by fate or will.

Tymber wrote:

And as for cancelling Recognition - I think it also depends. After all, how were the Sunfolk completely devoid of being able to truly Recognize and yet bare as many children as they did? (I know Leetah Recognized Cutter - but I don't think Leetah's parents recognized one another, for example? I could be wrong?)

Suntoucher and Thorah were recognized. HY #9 tells the story. Savah and Yurek, the foundes of Sorrow's End, were recognized. Vurdah longed for Recogniton to have a child, too. (The Heart's Way). The principle of Recognition was common for the Sunfolk - it happened rare, tho.

Tymber wrote:

So it seems like the idea of being able to do away with Recognition is there.

Or you know, it could just be "dramatic writing".....

THIS is always an option. ^^

At one point, Leetah said "there is nothing I do, it seems, that Winnowil has not already done-- nothing."

Well, now there's this. I don't think they even knew for sure they could do it before Ember asked. I don't think it had ever been tried, because it wasn't considered possible.

Lunakat wrote:

At one point, Leetah said "there is nothing I do, it seems, that Winnowil has not already done-- nothing."

Well, now there's this. I don't think they even knew for sure they could do it before Ember asked. I don't think it had ever been tried, because it wasn't considered possible.

Yeah but why wouldn't Dewshine and Tyldak do this?

Especially with how much they disliked one another? And you'd figure someone like Winnowill would know how to break Recognition... (or maybe she knew and never revealed how, which would be more up her alley...)

Tymber wrote:

And you'd figure someone like Winnowill would know how to break Recognition... (or maybe she knew and never revealed how, which would be more up her alley...)

Apparently she could not.

I think Tyldak and Dewshine didn't do it because that wasn't an option at the time.

I wish it had been. No offence to Windkin, he's a great guy, but Tyldak kept Dewshine and her family captive and helped torture her friend, besides insulting her and her entire lineage. It really wasn't fair.

There's also Goodtree's mother, whose early Recognition(she was basically a teenager, and she didn't look at Tanner as any kind of lovemate, IIRC) laid the foundation for Goodtree's abusive childhood.

Although I suppose if it had been possible before, most of the current crop of elves(Sunstream and Ember, for example) might not have been born. It just seems really unfair that all rights to bodily autonomy and desire are set aside because "babies!"

Survival of the species does not care about individuals.

Sentient beings aren't ducks. They have the right to decide what happens to their bodies, and how those bodies are used.

It's weird how EQ is so gung ho about the choice to retain one's mortality, but not the right to decide when and where one will become a parent, or with whom.

well i distinctly remember Winnowill saying she would increase the glider's fertility for Voll's sake, but then when the glider's slept, she would come back and undo her work, whatever that means. though i think she did end up basically....disolving the fetus' after conception, because there was mention of lost children or something like that.

http://elfquest.com/gallery/OnlineComics/index.php?s=RC&p=236

About Tyldak and Dewshine: I think Luna already gave the answer, it was not considered an option.

Another explanation may be that, even though they didn't like each other, the cub was welcome. Think about it: you have the chance to have a baby and, even though you don't like the father, you know it might be your only chance to ever have a child... overcoming the dislike for the father to do the deed seems like a small offer to me.

Amber is not specially fond of babies so it's not like "Yeah! I'm gonna be a mom!", she won't put her other tasks aside to fully concentrate on raising a child. She DOES like Teir, but the circumstances are not ideal to have a child. So here the problem is not the deed, but the result.

About the Sunfolk: I think their children were born only through recognition. Although we see children when we first are introduced to the Sunfolk, later it is stated that Ember and Suntop are the first children to be born in a long while.
Embala mentioned it before: The Heart's Way explains a lot. Vurdah wants a child with Skywise. She only talks about recognition, she even mentions forced recognition when she discusses with Leetha, there doesn't seem to be another option.
Another hint that recognition was needed for the Sunfolk to reproduce is to be found in HY9: Leetha organising orgies hoping these might trigger recognition, why would she if they would be able to conceive without it?

Like every reliable narrator, Winnowill makes her case to be justifiable in her own mind. She's making sure they don't over populate the mountain. In reality, she's removing the choice to reproduce one's self and determine one's own destiny.

kathleen3.0 wrote:

Sentient beings aren't ducks. They have the right to decide what happens to their bodies, and how those bodies are used. It's weird how EQ is so gung ho about the choice to retain one's mortality, but not the right to decide when and where one will become a parent, or with whom.

Well to be fair, in the case of Tyldak and Dewshine - I actually _liked_ the twist of irony. She saw him as a beautiful figure (before his flesh was changed), and he saw her as this horrible wolf beast inside. So the irony that Dewshine saw his inner "beauty" (soul, whatever), but could not stand his outward appearance; and he saw her as beautiful (I think) on the outside, but every time he looked at her he saw the "wolf beast" of her soul. So both are beautiful, both are ugly, but not in the same way - one on the outside, one on the inside.

Made for great dramatics.

And not to mention - ElfQuest may be gung ho about mortality - but the "choice" to breed with whom was taken away from them by the High Ones, I'd assume, who enacted this whole Recognition thing.

Yeah, Tyldak pre development is an arrogant, anti-not!Glider jerk, frankly, he's ugly in all the ways it counts. Given the choice of no baby vs. baby with him, I'd pick the former.

kathleen3.0 wrote:

Yeah, Tyldak pre development is an arrogant, anti-not!Glider jerk, frankly, he's ugly in all the ways it counts. Given the choice of no baby vs. baby with him, I'd pick the former.

I'm sure, given the choice, neither Dewshine nor Tyldak would have wanted to roll in the furs with each other.

kathleen3.0 wrote:

It seems to me kind of strange that this is the first time elves have cancelled a Recognition. If you think about it, Dewshine and Tyldak's recognition is only one of many that actively caused pain to the people who underwent it. Do you think this is a forgotten and rediscovered skill, or is it really the first time? And why didn't it occur to Leetah OR Winnowill that it might be better to end Dewshine and Tyldak's recognition rather than have both of them suffering the way they did?

For my .02, I think Winnie would be as thrilled as possible to have another glider offspring, even if 'tainted'. I think she had been planning on controlling Windkin from the moment she heard of the Recognition, so other than prolonging or causing torment, I dont think she would have lifted a finger to help or hurt the situation, regardless of what she knew magically. If nothing else, Im sure she looked at the whole thing as an experiment, a half breed elf with a shapechanged elf of her own design... who knows what genetic manipulation she caused while changing Tyldak, if she could remove bred in wolf genes from a wolfrider.

Leetah was still not sure what should could or couldnt do, and was still relatively fresh from recognizing Cutter (whats 6 or so years compared to 800?). I dont know if she had been around enough to get the full feeling of the Wolfrider's "all life is precious", but Im sure considering her own children she wouldnt have denied another elf a child, especially one she knew, even if she knew how to.

The question I have is if a soul name is tied in with recognition, and Winnie couod control others with their soul names, Id think if Leetah knew some form of manipulation in that area she would ha e tried to free those who were held by their soul names.

I would also like to add that Cutter/Skywise recognition did not result in a child birth (unless you ascribe to the theory it carried over to be one of the twins), but didnt result in any issues besides puzzlement that we were shown. Recognition could mean many things on different levels.

On the "creative license" front, I seem to remember a post by RP or WP that they had a rule: events fell into one of two catagories-- it either happened all the time and rarely doesnt happen (like hunting), or is rare and only happens once (as in Two Edge, Rayak absorbing spirits, the broken one, Elfin twins, Tyldak, and so on). I cant remember the actual post, but that was what I got out of it. No Sonic Screwdrivers, as it were.

kathleen3.0 wrote:

I wish it had been. No offence to Windkin, he's a great guy, but Tyldak kept Dewshine and her family captive and helped torture her friend, besides insulting her and her entire lineage. It really wasn't fair.

Wasn't that part of the drama of that Recognition? They were both repulsed by the other but they had to go through with it.


Tymber, where do you get the idea that the Sun-Villagers can't recognize? They do have children (or at least did, seems like they don't much these days).

Redhead Ember wrote:

kathleen3.0 wrote:

I wish it had been. No offence to Windkin, he's a great guy, but Tyldak kept Dewshine and her family captive and helped torture her friend, besides insulting her and her entire lineage. It really wasn't fair.

Wasn't that part of the drama of that Recognition? They were both repulsed by the other but they had to go through with it.
Tymber, where do you get the idea that the Sun-Villagers can't recognize? They do have children (or at least did, seems like they don't much these days).

Well having children does not equal Recognition does it? The Go-Backs have loads of children. I don't think the majority of them are through Recognition. I guess, simply because the Sun Folk apparently did away with Soul Names, and Recognition always seemed to center on "recognizing the soul name" - and though Cutter and Leetah DID "Recognize" - she didn't have a Soul Name. (If I remember correctly...) So I just figured, that was because Cutter had a Soul name that Recognition between them actually happened - and that I assumed, like the Go-Backs, the Sun Folk just had children through love mates, not soul mates.

Tymber wrote:

Redhead Ember wrote:

kathleen3.0 wrote:

I wish it had been. No offence to Windkin, he's a great guy, but Tyldak kept Dewshine and her family captive and helped torture her friend, besides insulting her and her entire lineage. It really wasn't fair.

Wasn't that part of the drama of that Recognition? They were both repulsed by the other but they had to go through with it.
Tymber, where do you get the idea that the Sun-Villagers can't recognize? They do have children (or at least did, seems like they don't much these days).

Well having children does not equal Recognition does it? The Go-Backs have loads of children. I don't think the majority of them are through Recognition. I guess, simply because the Sun Folk apparently did away with Soul Names, and Recognition always seemed to center on "recognizing the soul name" - and though Cutter and Leetah DID "Recognize" - she didn't have a Soul Name. (If I remember correctly...) So I just figured, that was because Cutter had a Soul name that Recognition between them actually happened - and that I assumed, like the Go-Backs, the Sun Folk just had children through love mates, not soul mates.

Nope, if I remember correctly they do have Recognition as we know it - just without the whole Soulname part because they've done away with those. I think it was visible in the story where Leetah's parents Recognized - but I cannot remember which issue that is.

The Go-Backs are Unique for their ability to have children outside Recognition.
If soulnames were required to recognize then only Wolfriders would be able to.

Redhead Ember wrote:

The Go-Backs are Unique for their ability to have children outside Recognition.
If soulnames were required to recognize then only Wolfriders would be able to.

Correct! And I think others can have kids without recognizion to, but that happens more rare.

Quote :

Another explanation may be that, even though they didn't like each other, the cub was welcome. Think about it: you have the chance to have a baby and, even though you don't like the father, you know it might be your only chance to ever have a child... overcoming the dislike for the father to do the deed seems like a small offer to me.

I agree with that. I think Dewshine wanted that cub, and I think she also know that this might be the only time she recognize, and there is a reason she has recognized HIM, they might not love each other, but they and their genes will make a awesome cub. And they look differently on the subject of kids, a wolfrider can live in 2000-3000 (?) years, and might not recognize at all, and even rarer to conceive without it, so when you have a chance, you take it.
Ember can delay it, because she has two healers and a palace, and she knows they can help her when she is ready ( and she isn't so crazy about babies )

Blackbird wrote:

Redhead Ember wrote:

The Go-Backs are Unique for their ability to have children outside Recognition.
If soulnames were required to recognize then only Wolfriders would be able to.

Correct! And I think others can have kids without recognizion to, but that happens more rare.

I always figured it was mostly the Wolfriders who could that back in the early days. Back then they were genetically closer to wolves and obviously wolves don't need to recognize.

kathleen3.0 wrote:

Sentient beings aren't ducks. They have the right to decide what happens to their bodies, and how those bodies are used.

It's weird how EQ is so gung ho about the choice to retain one's mortality, but not the right to decide when and where one will become a parent, or with whom.

Let me ask you this: the elves live forever (or reallllllly long times). They appear to have perfect pregnancies with none of the dangers or complications we humans can have and ludicrously easy births*. And their attitude towards sex is so open they don't hold to species barriers, let alone gender ones. It means less to them than having a coffee with someone you don't like.

In light of this, why should they care? What's a quick roll in the furs and a decade or two of child-care (with none of the isolated house-wife crap to deal with too)? Especially when you factor in that that they don't have enough numbers to satisfy the 50/500 rule of species survival.

*(Brill's labor was just so TWEE.)