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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Fri May 22, 2015 12:06 pm

I think that recognition is a biological aspect of the alien creatures that the elves are. I think it's there to create conflict and drama and force some improbable romance.

Let's face it. Without recognition, Cutter's behavior toward Leetah in book 1 would have been pretty reprehensible. Kidnapping... moving in on another man's girl. As it was though, it's understandable because he couldn't help it. He was driven by a biological imperative that addled his brains. And so was she. They had no choice.

So that turned into an almost Shakespearean love story. And we totally buy it as readers-- because it plays to our cultural fantasies about 'love at first sight' or "true love" and "soul mates." Except, if you really think about it, it's got a very creepy aspect to it. Tyldak and Dewshine give a hint of how very dark and problematic a force recognition can be, under the wrong circumstances. And Dart's story shows how casual it can be- and how non-life-changing... under adequate circumstances.

I actually like it as a plot device. I don't think it's supposed to say anything about marriage, as Miss Gillespie suggests, because it doesn't always result in the elf equivalent of marriage. It doesn't even always result in love. It results in offspring. I think it's basically the elf equivalent of going into heat. Like- you're an animal in heat, and somebody else is too-- but only for each other.

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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Fri May 22, 2015 12:11 pm

Manga and Outlier both bring up good points about sex. I think sex is an act of pleasure and procreation. It can help unify two people in an emotional bond-- because we are semi-monogamous creatures and have an inclination for that. Or, it can also not do that. Because it's just an instinctive behavior, after all. Whatever other meaning you give it is either personal or cultural, and so varies according to who you are or what society you live in.

I don't think it has any universal significance. It just is what it is.

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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Fri May 22, 2015 12:34 pm

I don't understand how people can conclude that the only act that gives life and breath to another being has no special significance.

But this has potential to be a large thread-jack, so that's all I'll say.
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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Fri May 22, 2015 6:02 pm

It has the special significance of giving life to another being-- no more no less. Anything else is what you make it. Animals do it all the time. What does it mean to them?

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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Fri May 22, 2015 7:03 pm

pretty sure it don't mean a doggone thing...i distinctly remember there was this very cute little dog at a flower stand, and i was listening to the owner, who said he was the product of incest i think...and the dog just had a littler of puppies with its daughter.

....so at least i can say, thank GOD there are no super inner family recognitions....cousins, yeah weird. brother and sister...i mean come on, think about Ember and Sunstream recognizing, or Sunstream recognizing Ember's child. that pushes the boundaries.

i mean, at least Ember and Teir are pretty doggone distant cousins...Kahvi is so far removed from Cutter by so many generations, and while Dewshine is Cutter's close cousin, it's been diluted by Tyldak and..yeah. i mean it's weird, but not totally weird.
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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Sat May 23, 2015 4:07 pm

Yes, Recognition brings life, but it doesn't force the involved parties to become lifemates and the child resulting from it will be loved just as much no matter what the parents chose.
Take the Dewshine-Tyldak example; the whole experience was unpleasant for both of them, but with the urging of both their tribemates, and Scouter's reassurance that he'd be the father, they went through with it in order to set each other free.
Then, after the whole mess of SaBM, the Dewshine and Scouter settled in Sorrow's End to raise their son. Sure, everybody knew that Windkin hadn't been sired by Scouter, they just didn't care because who Windkin's sire was - who Dewshine had actually recognized - wasn't really a big deal.
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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Sat May 23, 2015 6:36 pm

The thing that I keep coming back to in the whole "is it too alarmist to consider Recognition a form of rape?" discussion is that Ember, who presumably loves Teir a lot (though I wish she'd show it a bit more) found the idea of being forced to bear a child with him objectionable enough to have Recognition "turned off" even after they were both rescued. Clearly some elves don't consider the whole procreation angle a positive thing. So, surely forcing Ember to have a child against her will would be a form of rape?!

I really like the "idea" of the refusing Recognition - esp. if we could have more dialogue about it. Its about time the child free philosophy got a mention, after decades of nearly every female elf either having children or wanting them. That said: I wish we got a deeper investigation of why Ember didn't want a kid. I know the Recognition Summer Special has more or less been retconned out of existence where it contradicts Final Quest, but I liked Ember's whole outlook of "I want a cub through natural Recognition, not forced" - it made sense for the character... even though I spent many a year revisiting that story and yelling "Oh pull your head out of the Way's ass for once, Ember."

And while I know elves are so much more forgiving and tolerant than we small minded humans... I keep thinking what a great storyline it would be if this brought up all the resentment Dewshine still has about her recognition with Tyldak. Ember gets a free pass and she didn't? Sure, she'sgot windkin and Teir because of it, but she was still psychically and physically bonded against her will! And we know she's still haunted by it as recently as Hidden Years.

And why doesnt Ember want kids? Is it as simple as "babies scare her?" - a perfectly valid reason not to procreate, of course. Or is it more to do with feekings of inadequacy? Doesshe ffear she won't be a good mother just like she fears she isn't a good chief? Is she afraid Teir will love the child more than he does her? Is it about the pregnancy itself, the loss of bodily  autonomy? There is a whole trove of motivations that could be explored. I'm quite disappointed how that whole plotline has been brushed aside with only Strongbow giving his tired old "but its not the Way!!" complaint.

Hmmm.... Man making judgments about a woman's reproductive choices... sounds familiar.

I... hope(?) there will be more on this plotline. But I'm rather afraid HOW it will be handled.
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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Sat May 23, 2015 7:07 pm

As far as Strongbows objection, I don't think that was INTENDED as an "old man makes judgment on women's reproductive rights" so much as a case of lazy storytelling. but you make some good points I'll get back to you guys later I'm trying to cram as much sugar into this kid as I can before mom gets back.

That's my reason for not having kids. Karma!
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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Sat May 23, 2015 7:30 pm

i'm gonna agree with you Wingthing. i would like to also know why she just doesn't want kids. i mean i'm sure there are some women who are just "meh, kids.", but then there are women who feel they are not worth the time, or the world is a horrible place to have children, or there's already enough children, and a multitude of other reasons, both personal and physical.

she said she just doesn't care for the little ones, but she may if she waits as long as Leetah did for recognition...so maybe she feels her life is too young to be shackled down with kids, so to speak? she thinks she'll have more experience, more patience, and more...desire for them when she's older? after all, she is only...jeez, she can't be outside of her first century, which is pretty young for elves.
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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Sun May 24, 2015 2:52 am

Ember did say to Teir, "Someday I want your cub, but for now I want to focus on you." And she did prefer to meet Korafay when her niece was older and had developed more of a personality, probably so Korafay would be easier to relate to then. It could be Ember is underestimating her ability to possess maternal love. Teir seems to think so. So maybe it's partly disinterest at the moment, partly fear she won't be a good mother.

It's odd, though, that she seemed frustrated that she and Teir hadn't Recognized, and wanted a cub that way, but thought she would be six hundred years old when it happened. Now she doesn't care? Either we're looking at a continuity error, or enough time passed that she changed her mind.

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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Sun May 24, 2015 4:19 am

Multi-Facets wrote:

It's odd, though, that she seemed frustrated that she and Teir hadn't Recognized, and wanted a cub that way, but thought she would be six hundred years old when it happened. Now she doesn't care? Either we're looking at a continuity error, or enough time passed that she changed her mind.

The dreaded retcon rears its ugly head. I remember Wendy and/or Richard saying in the letter section of one of the Final Quest issues that the Recognition Summer Special didn't feel "Elfquesty" enough, hence why they rewrote most of it for Final Quest.
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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Sun May 24, 2015 4:29 am

Maybe the reason Ember doesn't want a child now is because it's a really bad time to have a child, what with Angrif preparing to launch his big war fleet. Of course it won't be ready for another ten years but Ember doesn't know that. Not only is having a child during these times maybe not the best idea - and now they actually have the choice to don't - but Ember is chief, maybe she feels she won't be able to lead her tribe through the difficult times if she's heavy with child.

Besides; if Ember and Teir had their child now we'd miss its early childhood, perhaps even the birth. On the other hand; if they wait until after issue 10 time we might get the see the child grow up from teeny baby.
And then Dewshine will be a great-grandmother which I personally think is kinda weird to think about.
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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Sun May 24, 2015 5:11 pm

wingthing wrote:
The thing that I keep coming back to in the whole "is it too alarmist to consider Recognition a form of rape?" discussion is that Ember, who presumably loves Teir a lot (though I wish she'd show it a bit more) found the idea of being forced to bear a child with him objectionable enough to have Recognition "turned off" even after they were both rescued. Clearly some elves don't consider the whole procreation angle a positive thing. So, surely forcing Ember to have a child against her will would be a form of rape?!

It is. It's also a tactic used by abusers to keep their victims close by(harder to leave when you have kids. Or to leave without your kids.). In war(and other forms of genocide), the idea is to outbreed your enemy, or forcibly assimilate them. EG, pureblood elves forcing recognitions among themselves, and WITH wolfriders, in order to outnumber and perhaps forcibly assimilate elves with wolfblood.


Quote :
I really like the "idea" of the refusing Recognition - esp. if we could have more dialogue about it. Its about time the child free philosophy got a mention, after decades of nearly every female elf either having children or wanting them. That said: I wish we got a deeper investigation of why Ember didn't want a kid. I know the Recognition Summer Special has more or less been retconned out of existence where it contradicts Final Quest, but I liked Ember's whole outlook of "I want a cub through natural Recognition, not forced" - it made sense for the character... even though I spent many a year revisiting that story and yelling "Oh pull your head out of the Way's ass for once, Ember."

...

And why doesnt Ember want kids? Is it as simple as "babies scare her?" - a perfectly valid reason not to procreate, of course. Or is it more to do with feekings of inadequacy? Doesshe ffear she won't be a good mother just like she fears she isn't a good chief? Is she afraid Teir will love the child more than he does her? Is it about the pregnancy itself, the loss of bodily  autonomy? There is a whole trove of motivations that could be explored. I'm quite disappointed how that whole plotline has been brushed aside with only Strongbow giving his tired old "but its not the Way!!" complaint.

Hmmm.... Man making judgments about a woman's reproductive choices... sounds familiar.

I... hope(?) there will be more on this plotline. But I'm rather afraid HOW it will be handled.

Well, there's nothing wrong with wanting kids, or with wanting kids through natural means. It makes sense that Ember, who's been told since she was a teenager that her father expected her to keep "The Way", would want to wait for natural Recognition.

It would also make sense that, for someone who doesn't want kids, "I'm waiting for Recognition" would make a handy excuse. It's not an eternal escape, but it offers some respite.

As far as Ember's lack of desire for kids, at least small ones, could stem from a variety of sources. We know that in her teenage years she wanted to cultivate a femininity she lacked, but eventually decided against it. She's never seemed particularly fond of younger kids, save for as playmates(eg, her fun with Trinket as kids). As an adult, when dealing with Pool and Sust, she had a tendency, as far as I can remember, to bounce between authoritarian and distant. At least, as distant as you can be in a tribe of less than three people. Now we know she's uncomfortable around young children. She's not a natural nurturer in any way. Like I've said elsewhere, she's a young version of Bearclaw.

I think Ember has two reasons not to want kids.

First off, she doesn't want kids. She's not ready, she may never be ready, she doesn't want to parent(with Teir, or anyone else). She's not a natural parent, and she doesn't have to have a reason beyond that. She's happy to wait, and maybe change, but right now, she doesn't care to have a baby. It's too bad for Teir, whose daddy clock is clearly off the charts, but if he truly loves her, he'll wait.

That's perfectly healthy.

The other reason, and I feel I should clarify these are both MY OPINIONS, nothing else, does probably have to do with her experiences growing up. It's perfectly possible that, watching her parents deal with Sunstream's difficulties(Savah's message to Cutter, the cry, all the other little things that go along with dealing with raising a magic user), she simply cannot imagine dealing with that, AND being chief, AND dealing with Angrif Djun, AND all the other things she has to deal with just being Cutter and Leetah's daughter. I mean, even if the kid is just a run of the mill elf, she already has her hands full. Her mom, brother, niece, and lifemate are all magic users, so the chances that her kid won't be must look pretty slim to her. I think that it's pretty understandable she'd want to wait until a better time.

As it happens, I've decided, not entirely willingly, not to have kids, because I'm thirty, and I have a lot of family responsibilities. There are lots of reasons people decide not to have kids, not all of them under their control. That's why reproductive freedom(the right to choose to have a child, as well as the right to choose against having one) is so important.

Quote :
And while I know elves are so much more forgiving and tolerant than we small minded humans... I keep thinking what a great storyline it would be if this brought up all the resentment Dewshine still has about her recognition with Tyldak. Ember gets a free pass and she didn't? Sure, she'sgot windkin and Teir because of it, but she was still psychically and physically bonded against her will! And we know she's still haunted by it as recently as Hidden Years.

To be fair, some of that was the lingering effect of Tyldak being a dumbass and saying her soulname in front of someone he KNEW was an abuser. However, I admit I like the idea of Dewshine being resentful(after all, Ember has a chance to have a baby with someone she knows and loves, who respects her and loves her in return, wtf), but that would involve her having a personality again. And we both know that's not going to happen.

Quote :
Hmmm.... Man making judgments about a woman's reproductive choices... sounds familiar.

Another problem where the fantasy meets reality and leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. I have my own theories on why Strongbow clings to "The Way" and none of it makes him look like a functional adult. But this line is pretty much him saying, like he did in OQ, everyone needs to do what he thinks they need to do(sort of like how Rayek acts, huh?) and do it it his way and all women should be babymakers and happy with it. Someone needs to smack this dude upside the head. It's so good he's not chief.

He makes sense in the context of "there aren't enough elves, and we shouldn't turn down a chance to make more", but not so much in the context of "people should be free to make their own reproductive choices." Which is a problem in today's cultural and political climate, one that the Pinis should have been aware of.
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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Sun May 24, 2015 11:59 pm

But Dewshine wasn't resentful when Tyleet and Scouter Recognized; in fact, she was overjoyed. She might have even stepped aside to let them be lifemates if they hadn't asked to be a threesome.

I also mentioned over at elfquest.com that I am very childfree and I wish more people would just not have kids, or adopt more often, so I respect Ember's doubts and wishes. But at the same time, I feel I'm a hypocrite because I believe, without any doubt, that the Wolfriders will go extinct, either through having their wolf blood removed or just dying out. A cub would not only continue the chief's line, but be one small bulwark against the inevitability.

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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Mon May 25, 2015 12:32 am

Yeah, but we were specifically discussing Dewshine reacting to what went down with Ember and Teir, not her reaction to Scouter and Tyleet.

Her main reaction to Scouter and Tyleet was an immediate, "Congrats". Which makes sense because at the time, all anyone knew was that Recognition was unavoidable and undeniable, and Dewshine's generally pretty optimistic, except when people are telling her she has no choice but to do the nasty with a guy who literally kept her as a slave.

In fact, in Wolfrider and Sun Villager culture, there seems to be a strong expectation that people who Recognize will become lifemates, which adds a whole new level of horror onto the crap Dewshine was put through. In fact, until Scouter said, "I'm stepping up, no matter what, because I love you" she was probably either thinking she was permanently stuck with Tyldak, or she was raising this kid on her own.

So, yes, we were imagining her reaction to people being able to break Recognition, and not just anyone, people who were actually very much in love with each other, people who didn't harm each other, on purpose or by accident. I think Dewshine would probably not show it to them, but I imagine she would privately be somewhat resentful that Ember got an "out" when she didn't.
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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Mon May 25, 2015 1:01 am

Multi-Facets wrote:
But Dewshine wasn't resentful when Tyleet and Scouter Recognized; in fact, she was overjoyed. She might have even stepped aside to let them be lifemates if they hadn't asked to be a threesome.

Yyeeeah.... I know elves are supposed to be "better" than us and all...but I always thought Dewshine's total acceptance of that Recognition beggared belief. I mean, the accepted courtesy really *should* be to tell your longterm lovemate before you go off banging your newly Recognized. Dewshine had to find out about it by wolfhowl telegraph. (yes yes I'm being snarky, Scouter probably sent to her, but we didn't see it, I'm going by what's on the page.)

Quote :
I also mentioned over at elfquest.com that I am very childfree and I wish more people would just not have kids, or adopt more often, so I respect Ember's doubts and wishes. But at the same time, I feel I'm a hypocrite because I believe, without any doubt, that the Wolfriders will go extinct, either through having their wolf blood removed or just dying out. A cub would not only continue the chief's line, but be one small bulwark against the inevitability.

Holla at the fellow childfree! I too feel totally conflicted - I am psyched that there is a proud child free role model in EQ.... but I so wish it wasn't Ember, because I've want her and Teir to have adorable wolfriding twins since I was 17! (oh puckernuts, I just realized that's half my life! Elfquest is a hell of a drug!! lol!  )
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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Mon May 25, 2015 1:03 am

wingthing wrote:
Multi-Facets wrote:
But Dewshine wasn't resentful when Tyleet and Scouter Recognized; in fact, she was overjoyed. She might have even stepped aside to let them be lifemates if they hadn't asked to be a threesome.

Yyeeeah.... I know elves are supposed to be "better" than us and all...but I always thought Dewshine's total acceptance of that Recognition beggared belief. I mean, the accepted courtesy really *should* be to tell your longterm lovemate before you go off banging your newly Recognized. Dewshine had to find out about it by wolfhowl telegraph. (yes yes I'm being snarky, Scouter probably sent to her, but we didn't see it, I'm going by what's on the page.)

Quote :
I also mentioned over at elfquest.com that I am very childfree and I wish more people would just not have kids, or adopt more often, so I respect Ember's doubts and wishes. But at the same time, I feel I'm a hypocrite because I believe, without any doubt, that the Wolfriders will go extinct, either through having their wolf blood removed or just dying out. A cub would not only continue the chief's line, but be one small bulwark against the inevitability.

Holla at the fellow childfree! I too feel totally conflicted - I am psyched that there is a proud child free role model in EQ.... but I so wish it wasn't Ember, because I've want her and Teir to have adorable wolfriding twins since I was 17! (oh puckernuts, I just realized that's half my life! Elfquest is a hell of a drug!! lol!  )

Dewshine literally threw Scouter's clothes at him, you really think she didn't figure it out before him?
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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Mon May 25, 2015 1:09 am

Like I said, beggared belief. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Mon May 25, 2015 1:11 am

It did, but frankly, the emotional depth hasn't really been the same in the story since KOBTW.
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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Mon May 25, 2015 1:17 am

Amen to that. Sadly. Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Mon May 25, 2015 1:26 am

Hence it would be extremely unlikely for WRP to spend much time on how this affects Dewshine. Also, while it would be interesting, it would detract from the speed in which they're telling the story.

However, this is making me wonder how many characters became lifemates because of the societal impetus. For example, what if Rayek had told Leetah, "It doesn't matter if the child you bear has white hair and weird ass pale skin, or your beautiful auburn hair and green eyes, I'll love it, because it will be part of you"? And did Moonshade even like Strongbow to begin with, or did they become lifemates because it was "The Way"? What about Clearbrook and One Eye? Would Joyleaf and Bearclaw have made up permanently if not for the hormonal overdose? Do Toorah and Anatim love each other at all, or is it just habitual at this point?

And if elves could originally only reproduce through Recognition, why do they even have sex the rest of the time? Is it social bonding, bonobo style? Or habit?
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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Mon May 25, 2015 2:44 am

I just meant that if Dewshine wasn't upset over Tyleet and Scouter, who didn't love each other romantically beforehand, why would she be upset over Ember and Teir?

Speaking of Teir, he did agree to wait; as much as he wants to be a father, he realized he's not cut out for the job right now.

Sex for elves is just fun and recreational, it seems.

And: (high-five to Wingthing)

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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Mon May 25, 2015 5:15 am

I think Dewshine definitely knew what was about to happen with Scouter and Tyleet, perhaps even before they knew themselves.
As for her still being affected by what happened with Winnowill learning her soulname; I think the moment she willingly shared her soulname with Scouter and Tyleet was the moment she was truly over what happened; the moment she realised that even though she'd been hurt horribly by the wrong person knowing her soulname she could still love freely enough to share even that.
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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Wed May 27, 2015 10:21 am

I don't get that bit about waiting as long as Leetah did. Leetah was barely a stripling as her people counted it. She hardly waited at all. (Aside from the fact she seemed to be actively avoiding it.)
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PostSubject: Re: Delayed/Cancelled Recognition    Wed May 27, 2015 11:15 am

She just doesn't want babies right now- and figured out a form of birth control. More power to her.

The rest seems like baloney surprise.

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