Final Quest #11

Redhead Ember wrote:

But do we actually know that Dart and Kimo were ever soulbrothers?
Sure, Kimo seemingly knew Dart's soulname in the Forevergreen, but it hasn't really come up since, so it could just be a mistake.

This right here is exactly my point! Dart and Kimo were totally soulbrothers in Forevergreen. Now it's been so long since anyone acknowledged that fact that it's being suggested as a "mistake".

I know that Wendy didn't create that arc so she may not be very invested in anything that happened there. But honestly… don't lynch me… I feel like Wendy and Richard should be more respectful of the work that other artists and writers have done within EQ. They chose to allow those people into their sandbox, and now to just retcon over parts of their stories (even ones as bad as Forevergreen) irks me. Not to mention the total hatchet job that's been done to Teir's entire character. I feel bad for Joellyn.

Getting back to the positive: Sifra, these comics are to die for!

sun girl wrote:

I know that Wendy didn't create that arc so she may not be very invested in anything that happened there. But honestly… don't lynch me… I feel like Wendy and Richard should be more respectful of the work that other artists and writers have done within EQ. They chose to allow those people into their sandbox, and now to just retcon over parts of their stories (even ones as bad as Forevergreen) irks me. Not to mention the total hatchet job that's been done to Teir's entire character. I feel bad for Joellyn.

That's because Wendy and Richard Pini are just like the big two (Marvel and DC). Where, despite continuity, they can come back in and completely revamp a story that was already set in stone and change it. It's rampant in Marvel and DC, and now it's in ElfQuest. Not at all surprised. As soon as they let other people play in their sandbox, I had a feeling that if Wendy ever decided to really come back and do a series; there was going to be stuff that other folks did that she was not going to acknowledge or change.

It's weird to me; because ElfQuest being such a small thing (not a big company license like Marvel or DC), you would think that Richard and Wendy would have the ultimate say over things that would happen to characters. It could be that only major characters had to be approved (Cutter, Skywise, Leetah, Rayek, Winnowill, etc), and minor characters Dart, Mender, etc - did not require approval.

Yeah, Tymber, it's pretty common in comics isn't it. It's just disappointing. Once upon a time EQ had an almost unbroken continuity (a handful of early New Blood and Hidden Years issues, "Bedtime Stories" etc. excepted). I would have thought those major, multiple-issue arcs like Forevergreen and the Shards War were unquestionably canon once. Not so now.

And I still think it's a wee bit disrespectful.

But it was just so... random that Kimo suddenly knew Dart's soulname.
Dart was devastated when Shushen died and went into wrapstuff, then after many years he recognized Serrin, had Bowki and was out for a couple of years before going back into wrapstuff, finally everyone was awakened and healed, and not long after the Gang went off to the Forevergreen and... Kimo suddenly knew his soulname?! Did Dart just randomly tell Kimo his soulname in the years between waking up and going to the Forevergreen?
Also, why do Kimo and Serrin seemingly not have soulnames? They're half-wolfriders, with wolfblood. They non-wolfblooded Sunstream has a soulname.
I'm pretty sure the Forevergreen is canon though, since Leetah was referring to it in the Special.

As for Teir being completely changed; not really. The family he told Ember about in HY was his adopted family, in fact the fact that he didn't seem overly upset by his adopted mother and brother just up and left might have been because he deep down knew she wasn't really his mother.

Finally, about Dart and Mender; They've had 10 years for their relationship to develop from their talk in issue 7 to now.
Think of Treestump and Clearbrook. During all off SaBM and the beginning of KoBW Clearbrook was still "waiting" for One-Eye to return to her, before she finally released his spirit. Then a few days later they moved to the New Land and... Treestump and Clearbrook were moving in together.

Redhead Ember wrote:

Finally, about Dart and Mender; They've had 10 years for their relationship to develop from their talk in issue 7 to now.
Think of Treestump and Clearbrook. During all off SaBM and the beginning of KoBW Clearbrook was still "waiting" for One-Eye to return to her, before she finally released his spirit. Then a few days later they moved to the New Land and... Treestump and Clearbrook were moving in together.

Right, except that you actually saw an ongoing relationship between Treestump and Clearbrook despite them *not* being romantically involved. From day one of One-Eye's death, Treestump was there for her and he waited. The relationship grew, and we don't even really know if they hooked up but they weren't going to life mate until Clearbrook let One-Eye go. But we knew Treestump had the hots for Clearbrook too (I almost wrote Treebrook ) and it was probably only a matter of time.

This really was not the case with Dart and Mender. It was a nonexistent relationship and then a comment showing dislike from Dart, and then suddenly Mender is all over him? That's from issue 7 to now. Disdain to love, really?
It doesn't matter how much 'time has passed'. They knew of each other but that's all. We never even saw them have a friendship. If the relationship is not in some way shown  (at least as a friendship, for god's sake, at least for a start), then how would the reader find it at all believable?

The more fundamental change in Teir is in his personality. He used to have this calm, wise, spiritual, self-sufficient atmosphere about him. He seems entirely different now, clingy and needy and irrational.

My only objection to changing Teir's lineage is that it's a missed opportunity. When Teir first showed up there were all these fascinating mysterious hints thrown out about his culture's Go-Back heritage, and I always wanted to hear more about how the exiled Go-Backs evolved into the plains folk.

They could still explore all that stuff if they wanted to by actually talking about Teir's adopted family, but of course they won't. Establishing him as Kahvi and Windkin's son… it makes the world smaller instead of bigger. It just brings it all back to the small central cast of characters that have been around since the beginning, emphasizing that they and only they are the important ones. After all, those elves who struggled and suffered and died/had to be put into wrapstuff comas getting to the Palace aren't important enough to even get names.

I'm just never gonna come around on FQ. I do not like any of the story choices they're making.

I *kind of* understand why Tier became clingy and needy, and my take on it is that he was without company of others for so long that his issues didn't come out. He was alone and therefor completely emotionally self-sufficient because (besides the animals), he just was in hermit mode.
Meeting up with the others and getting closer made his abandonment issues surface. If anything, this is something I can relate to just from personal experience (unfortunately). You think you're fine and then others come along and you find yourself dealing with this bottomless emotional pit you never knew was inside you before as you learn intimacy.  

Heh, I'm probably over relating here

But I do agree, Sun girl, that it's a real pity we don't find out more about the exiled Go-Backs. I would've found their story really interesting probably. I'm surprised they don't answer the palace's call either. I mean, unless a couple of those that trekked out and already are there are from that group. Maybe they are? I'm not holding my breath but it would be really great if we get some story on them.

Tbh, I would rather they came up with a whole different elf if they wanted Ember to become a life mate to Windkin and Kahvi's boy. They completely retooled Teir's personality, basically white-washed him, and redesigned his appearance to the point of being unrecognizable.

What happened in the Wild Hunt made sense. He showed up, quietly took his place in the tribe, screwed up, was forgiven, and he and Ember's relationship developed in a natural way.

Now he's a completely different elf, and I honestly have a hard time seeing what Ember sees in him, but then I can't get a grasp on her character, either.

Redhead Ember wrote:

Also, why do Kimo and Serrin seemingly not have soulnames? They're half-wolfriders, with wolfblood. They non-wolfblooded Sunstream has a soulname.

I would think that has more to do with upbringing than blood.

Like, Suntop was named a Wolfrider name. He was later raised almost completely as a Wolfrider. Serrin and Kimo were basically raised as Sun Villagers, hence no soul name.

Then too, I think Sun Villagers might say "name words" differently from other words. Nightfall specifies that Tyleet will have a soul name, to ensure that everyone knows that her calling name isn't her soul name, it's just that she used a Sun Folk way of naming.

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As for Teir being completely changed; not really. The family he told Ember about in HY was his adopted family, in fact the fact that he didn't seem overly upset by his adopted mother and brother just up and left might have been because he deep down knew she wasn't really his mother.

I can't actually believe I'm reading this with my own eyes, or that someone could say something that ignorant.

Adoptive parents are real parents. Adoptive families are real families, and for all Elfquest's flaws, I never thought I would have to say that on an EQ forum. Maybe I'm feeling a bit sensitive because I visited my adoptive brother's grave today to prep the rose bushes there for winter, but the idea that I would feel less devotion to him because of a separate genetic code is honestly insulting.

And Teir is shown to be honestly grieved by his father's death. Oh, sorry, his adoptive father's death. K, I guess it wasn't that awful after all.

sun girl wrote:

The more fundamental change in Teir is in his personality. He used to have this calm, wise, spiritual, self-sufficient atmosphere about him. He seems entirely different now, clingy and needy and irrational.

I think the word you're looking for is "annoying."

kathleen3.0 wrote:

They completely retooled Teir's personality, basically white-washed him, and redesigned his appearance to the point of being unrecognizable.

Testify! The white-washing is especially awkward to dwell upon, but the drastic plastic surgery on he nose and cheekbones is hard to overlook too.

To me it seems Wendy is slowly turning Teir into a brunette Cutter.

kathleen3.0 wrote:

Redhead Ember wrote:

Also, why do Kimo and Serrin seemingly not have soulnames? They're half-wolfriders, with wolfblood. They non-wolfblooded Sunstream has a soulname.

I would think that has more to do with upbringing than blood.
Like, Suntop was named a Wolfrider name. He was later raised almost completely as a Wolfrider. Serrin and Kimo were basically raised as Sun Villagers, hence no soul name.

But... why would how you're brought up matter if you have Soul Names? Because, it's not like someone names their own soul name? It's just something that's there, as far as I understand it? Or maybe I just don't recall, know enough, or read the issues, that explain how soul names work... but my impression was it's something that a person is BORN with - and that when people connect strongly enough - that soul name is revealed (like through Recognition), and the people know their own soul names - and can share it with those that they trust (whether for love, like Nightfall & Redlance, or through friendship, like Skywise and Cutter).

I think you are a bit over-reacting, Kathleen, because you are personally, emotionally attached and even more sensitive due to the tragic loss of your beloved brother and today's closeness to him. *hugs*

Adoptive families are real families. In real life. In EQ. And if you'd know Redhead like I do you would know that she is the first to acknowlede this. She's the one who will never get tired to remind us that family ties by adoption are as true and important than family ties by blood.

When you consider Teir's story Red's remark makes a lot of sense. Teir ALWAYS had the feeling of loss. Of being abandoned by his mother as a toddler. This feeling was unconscious and did not come aware for him before Kahvi's smell brought back the guried memories.
But under this condition the boy could have felt to some degree, that his mother was not what - or WHO he longed for. Teir did not say: You have only adopted me. You are not my real Mom! He simply felt that he missed something ... the mother he had during his first year or so. This feeling of loss might have alienated him from his mother far enough to stay ... less attached to her.
On the other hand he never remembered another father than the one who raise him and loved him as a son.

In this light Redhead's suggetion is not ignorant at all for me.

kathleen3.0 wrote:

They completely retooled Teir's personality, basically white-washed him, and redesigned his appearance to the point of being unrecognizable.

Yeah, all of this too. He has been redesigned in basically every way possible since his introduction. The dark skin and raven braids are gone, the story about the father who could call birds out of the sky and the mother who abandoned them will never be expanded on, the mystic loner who endured Ember's rejection with patience and devotion for some reason can't give her an inch of emotional space anymore. Why not just kill him off and replace him with some new guy? Because taking a formerly-popular character that someone else created and transforming him into the deserving butt of weepy emoticon jokes is fun?

Apparently, yes!

The alternative, of course, is assuming Wendy really can't see the difference between original Teir and her Teir Lite, and that is profoundly disturbing.

Heh. Go-Backs seem to almost never know who their dads are

kathleen3.0 wrote:

Redhead Ember wrote:

Also, why do Kimo and Serrin seemingly not have soulnames? They're half-wolfriders, with wolfblood. They non-wolfblooded Sunstream has a soulname.

I would think that has more to do with upbringing than blood.
Like, Suntop was named a Wolfrider name. He was later raised almost completely as a Wolfrider. Serrin and Kimo were basically raised as Sun Villagers, hence no soul name.

Because BB was not informed very well about soulnames? It was his story about the Dart-Serrin recognition; same with the Dart/Kimo relationship. The chance he simply messed up like "Serrin=Sunfolk and Kimo=Sunfolk thus no soulname" is as good as any made up rational explanation.

Tymber wrote:

But... why would how you're brought up matter if you have Soul Names? Because, it's not like someone names their own soul name? It's just something that's there, as far as I understand it? Or maybe I just don't recall, know enough, or read the issues, that explain how soul names work... but my impression was it's something that a person is BORN with - and that when people connect strongly enough - that soul name is revealed (like through Recognition), and the people know their own soul names - and can share it with those that they trust (whether for love, like Nightfall & Redlance, or through friendship, like Skywise and Cutter).

That's how I've understood it as well, Tymber - for the last two decades or so. With all the retconing and changing in the Final Quest I would not risk a bet anymore. Less my sanity. XD

One correction: Cutter and Skywise did not share soulnames.
They avctually recognized, means: spontaniously found each othere's soulmame while "eyes met eyes". Yup, male/male recognition - for the mind, not for cubs tho. ^^

wingthing wrote:

Apparently, yes!
The alternative, of course, is assuming Wendy really can't see the difference between original Teir and her Teir Lite, and that is profoundly disturbing.

Well, it's probably, because it's going to turn out, that Teir is just an extension of Timmain also. And because Tier is near the castle, he's changed, melding more into Timmain, being absorbed by her... or something along those lines, that is completely illogical.

Embala wrote:

Tymber wrote:

But... why would how you're brought up matter if you have Soul Names? Because, it's not like someone names their own soul name? It's just something that's there, as far as I understand it? Or maybe I just don't recall, know enough, or read the issues, that explain how soul names work... but my impression was it's something that a person is BORN with - and that when people connect strongly enough - that soul name is revealed (like through Recognition), and the people know their own soul names - and can share it with those that they trust (whether for love, like Nightfall & Redlance, or through friendship, like Skywise and Cutter).

That's how I've understood it as well, Tymber - for the last two decades or so. With all the retconing and changing in the Final Quest I would not risk a bet anymore. Less my sanity. XD

One correction: Cutter and Skywise did not share soulnames.
They avctually recognized, means: spontaniously found each othere's soulmame while "eyes met eyes". Yup, male/male recognition - for the mind, not for cubs tho. ^^

Ach, you are correct about Cutter/Skywise. Sorry!

The characterization and mishandling of Teir has been one of the worst parts of Final Quest. I can't echo enough how disappointing it is too see what was once an intriguing character turned into a cardboard cut-out. Joellyn must be secretly fuming. I know I would. She created a character who was one of the best parts of Hidden Years. A mysterious, mystical loner, more than capable of taking care of himself. He's been turned into an annoying, whiny little weakling. He was clearly intended to be the child of Go-Back wanderers, the descendants of the group that were exiled by Rayek. It all made perfect sense. Then Wendy got a hold of him and completely changed him. Not only his appearance and design, but his personality, his history, and his magic. The retconning of Teir is a huge shame. He went from one of my favourite characters to one I can't stand. Kahvi and Windkin's son? Please. What shoddy storytelling. I really hope he and Ember DON'T have a cub.

If they do have a cub, it'll likely happen after the Final Quest ends, and thus not truly be explored. It feels like WaRP is running outta time to tell the story of the Final Quest (have they said anything about wanting to retire, come to think of it?), so anything like that will be left to the minds of the readers. But that's just a theory.

I'm very sorry if my comments have hurt anyone.
Embala is right, what I meant was that when Teir told Ember about his family in HY he was talking about his family, his adopted family.
His father could call birds out of the sky, something Kahvi even acknowledged in issue 5. In fact she might even have chosen him to raise Teir in part because she suspected Teir, being part-glider, would have similar skills.
His mother and brother did leave with another travelling band.
Just because they weren't his family by blood doesn't mean they weren't his family, and I'm sure Teir would be absolutely thrilled if he learned that his mother and brother were still alive.
It's just like how for Windkin father will always be Scouter, and how Windkin would never try to make Teir call him father, it wouldn't be right to the father who raised him.
It's how Dewshine is just as much Pool's mother as Tyleet is, and how Talmah was just as much Bowki's father as Dart was, if not more.
It's how Skot and Pike couldn't care less who of them sired Cheipar and Sust.
It's how Little Patch was Tyleet's son, Khorbasi is Yun's son, and Shuna is Cutter and Leetah's daughter.

Finally I'd say that Teir whiny streak was a combanation of having his locked-away infant memories triggered, together with recognizing Ember and then being forcefully separated from her while being on the run.
In issue 6, when Cutter and Ember went off for their Little Chief's Council Teir was the one who had to assure Ember that he'd be fine.

Tymber wrote:

Or maybe I just don't recall, know enough, or read the issues, that explain how soul names work... but my impression was it's something that a person is BORN with - and that when people connect strongly enough - that soul name is revealed (like through Recognition), and the people know their own soul names - and can share it with those that they trust (whether for love, like Nightfall & Redlance, or through friendship, like Skywise and Cutter).

Back when Ember/Suntop were born (IIRC), and back when Windkin was born (which I re-read recently), it seemed as though their mothers could detect, in utero, whether or not the children had soul names. Can't dig up the pages right now, but basically, Dewshine tells Cutter that Windkin's soul name is a Wolfrider's.

So, I'd assumed that this is something that is specific to the child, happens in utero, and doesn't *have* to happen (if there's any question).

I don't think it's ever been stated explicitly, though, so there's some wiggle room for all sorts of interpretation...

m0nkeyh0use wrote:

Tymber wrote:

Or maybe I just don't recall, know enough, or read the issues, that explain how soul names work... but my impression was it's something that a person is BORN with - and that when people connect strongly enough - that soul name is revealed (like through Recognition), and the people know their own soul names - and can share it with those that they trust (whether for love, like Nightfall & Redlance, or through friendship, like Skywise and Cutter).

Back when Ember/Suntop were born (IIRC), and back when Windkin was born (which I re-read recently), it seemed as though their mothers could detect, in utero, whether or not the children had soul names. Can't dig up the pages right now, but basically, Dewshine tells Cutter that Windkin's soul name is a Wolfrider's.

So, I'd assumed that this is something that is specific to the child, happens in utero, and doesn't *have* to happen (if there's any question).

I don't think it's ever been stated explicitly, though, so there's some wiggle room for all sorts of interpretation...

I guess the next question becomes; how is a Soul Name created? If it's while the cub is still in the womb - then why would one get a soul name and one not - if they're Wolfriders?

More and more, it seems having a soul name is more damaging than good...

Because it seemed, without the help of powerful healers (such as Leetah), baring children as Wolfriders, without Recognition was difficult (Redlance and Nightfall), but not impossible (take Pike for example, being born without Recognition happening, if I remember correctly) - where you have Go-Backs and Sun Villagers who did away with Soul Names and have a ton of children. Sure, soul names go hand in hand with Recognition and create potentially amazing children of great power; but look at Rayek... Winnowill... Leetah... all, to my knowledge born without Recognition and insanely powerful.

So the benefit of a soul name is where?

Pike was born outside Recognition similar to Tyleet. His father Rain tried to increase the numbers of Wolfriders and experimented with "artificially triggered" Recognition. Tho he was a comparably week healer he was successful at least once.

Rayek and Leetah are born by Recognition, Tymber! In Rayek's case I think it was stated somewhere ... or at least implied. And the Recognition of Toorah and Suntoucher was told in a HY comic. Savah's child/children were born by Recognition as well. How I understand it the Sunfolk depends on Recognition just like the Wolfriders.

Not sure about Winnowill but she was born so early in time, possibly a firstborn of the High Ones, that it could have been before they (re)discovered recognition ... or while Recognition was already established.

The "independant" procreation of the Go-Backs seemed surprising and unique to all other tribes.
Recognition was not a "Wolfrider thing" for sure.

Embala wrote:

Rayek and Leetah are born by Recognition, Tymber! In Rayek's case I think it was stated somewhere ... or at least implied. And the Recognition of Toorah and Suntoucher was told in a HY comic. Savah's child/children were born by Recognition as well. How I understand it the Sunfolk depends on Recognition just like the Wolfriders.

They were born out of Recognition (Rayek and Leetah)? I totally do NOT remember that at all. I thought the Sun Villagers did away with Recognition completely, similar to the Go-Backs.

Embala wrote:

Not sure about Winnowill but she was born so early in time, prossibly a firstborn of the High Ones, that it could have been bofore they (re)discovered recognition ... or while Recognition was already established.

Which is also odd, because wasn't the first born High One magic going completely weak? And look what she managed to do. (Not just in terms of healing, flesh shaping, but essentially mind controlling, for lack of a better word, the majority of Blue Mountain with Door & Egg...

Embala wrote:

The "independant" procreation of the Go-Backs seemed surprising and unique to all other tribes.
Recognition was not a "Wolfrider thing" for sure.

I guess, I just don't remember Hidden Years all that well... because I don't think they ever discussed Recognition before (well, Savah knew what it was... So I guess I should have known...)