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faeriegirl

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:21 am

Kindredsoul wrote:
Tymber wrote:

Some things I feel have been dragged out to death, while other things are entirely skipped and assumed. It feels like they've lost their ability to pace the story - something they once excelled at so much.


That. Exactly.

NOTHING when a whole new elf arrived at the Palace!? To at least see his expression, greeting new faces, and the like? Isn't THAT a monumental occasion, ESPECIALLY since he's the FIRST!?

But we get how many panels of ShenShen (again) with humans (again) and repeated dialogue (again),

Like I said, I'm STILL TRYING to like FQ, but each issue is making harder than the last, and I was at LEAST hopeful for some GRAND welcome to the FIRST newcomer....

But nothing....   Sad  Sad  Sad

I'm trying... I really really am....
Ditto this. I do get excited for the new issue when I read the preview, but then I read the actual issue and I'm like 'meh, wasn't worth all the fuss, really'

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:16 am

Kindredsoul wrote:
Tymber wrote:

Some things I feel have been dragged out to death, while other things are entirely skipped and assumed. It feels like they've lost their ability to pace the story - something they once excelled at so much.
That. Exactly.
NOTHING when a whole new elf arrived at the Palace!? To at least see his expression, greeting new faces, and the like? Isn't THAT a monumental occasion, ESPECIALLY since he's the FIRST!?
But we get how many panels of ShenShen (again) with humans (again) and repeated dialogue (again),
Like I said, I'm STILL TRYING to like FQ, but each issue is making harder than the last, and I was at LEAST hopeful for some GRAND welcome to the FIRST newcomer....
But nothing....   Sad  Sad  Sad
I'm trying... I really really am....

I am glad to see you and @faeriegirl agree with me. I kept thinking, "Maybe I'm old and just not into it like I was before?"

But then I think, "I just re-read the Original Quest like a year ago, and absolutely still loved it!"

So I have clearly not "out grown" ElfQuest. There's legitimately something "off" (and I think it's the pacing) when it comes to me reading Final Quest.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:01 am

Guys... I agree that Final Quest has it's failings... but I think we are all being a bit harsh. It's not that terrible. It's actually okay. No, it's not as great as the Original Quest... but then, neither was much of what came afterward. I really think Seige at Blue Mountain was good storytelling, and that after that... the story didn't get good again until Full Circle. That's how much mediocre story telling and art we had in Elfquest after the Original Quest. Final Quest is not bad, actually. The art is pretty good and the story is okay. The worst thing I really have to say about it is that it's meandering and awkwardly paced. But it isn't this huge ball of suck that we are acting like it is.

The Skywise/Timmain thing has been building for years. It's only out of the blue if this is your first issue of Elfquest. Otherwise-- it's way, way, way anticlimactic-- because it's been so very very anticipated. The new dude did get his moment of "wow- there's a new dude!" He totally did. He's one of the most memorable things about this part of the story-- and everyone falls silent when he walks out.

Skywise knows him because he's been going back and forth between the Palace and the Holt. We see that, because he picks up Moonshade and drops her off. He also, presumably, picks up Ember and the Wavedancers. So we can assume he met the guy when he visited the Palace one day. He's just not been hanging out there full time like he usually does.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:17 pm

Lunakat wrote:

Guys... I agree that Final Quest has it's failings... but I think we are all being a bit harsh.

That is the beauty of opinions. They all greatly differ sometimes.
Just because I love anchovies on pizza, doesn't mean everyone should also love it, because I do.
(I actually don't - was just trying to think of something gross that a lot of people probably do not like!) Smile

So I don't think anyone's being a bit harsh - I think people (like myself) are expressing an entirely different view than you. Which is OK.

Lunakat wrote:

No, it's not as great as the Original Quest... but then, neither was much of what came afterward. I really think Seige at Blue Mountain was good storytelling, and that after that... the story didn't get good again until Full Circle.

Well nothing will compare to the Final Quest, because the book cast was - compared to now - relatively small - and everyone got a moment to shine throughout the series. Compared to now - where we're getting what feels like hundreds of elves crammed down our throat - without any of them getting a chance to shine.

The Original ElfQuest gave me a chance to get to know the Elves - so when someone like One-Eye died, I was legitimately sad. Just about anyone can die in this book, and I wouldn't feel a damn thing - except the breeze across my face as I turn the page and keep trying to figure out what's happening.

Lunakat wrote:

The art is pretty good and the story is okay.

I love the art. The story, I will disagree with you on however.

Lunakat wrote:

Skywise knows him because he's been going back and forth between the Palace and the Holt. We see that, because he picks up Moonshade and drops her off. He also, presumably, picks up Ember and the Wavedancers. So we can assume he met the guy when he visited the Palace one day. He's just not been hanging out there full time like he usually does.

At one time, this would have been shown - rather than "presumed."

Clearly, there's quite a few of us who were very confused by these few panels, so that's telling you something.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:28 pm

I didn't think I came off as harsh. My apologies.

And thank you Tymber. Well said

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:49 pm

Tymber, "sup" as the verb form of "to eat supper" has been around for a long time. Wendy's not cutting corners to make that rhyme.

So I was noodling about on the FAQ page today and I found a couple of things.

#1: FQ is slated for 24 issues, so issue #10 isn't even the halfway point.  Though I am definitely not happy with the development vis-a-vis Rayek and Winnowill, well, I wouldn't have been happy with whatever issue of "KotBW" featured the timetrip either.  I'll hope for better developments.  I don't think it will involve the ret-conning of "Rogue's Curse" out of existence but there may be at least a better spin on things or even, dare to hope, the folding in of a conclusion.  (Since we don't know how far out, in the elves' time-line, the ending will actually be.)

#2: "When we first met Cutter, his wolf-friend Nightrunner warned him of danger via a crude sending. At that point in the story, a few of the Wolfrider wolves retained just enough elf-blood (from the time of Timmain and Timmorn) to be able to send. Now, in the time of Final Quest, many thousands of years later, that “blood” (and ability) has been completely diluted – bred out, actually – to the point where the Wolfriders’ lupine friends are 100 percent wolf. So no, they can no longer send."      No more elf-blooded wolves at all, though it seems to me that by the same logic, the Wolfriders shouldn't have much wolf blood left either.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:23 pm

I don't know that we're being too harsh. These past 3 or 4 issues have really taken a turn for the worse imo in terms of storytelling due to the lack of focus, as others have mentioned, as well as the palace itself being almost an obstruction to the story.

To be clear, I thought the first 5 issues of FQ were decent in terms of story - I liked the return of Lehigren and how he went. He was, I feel, one of the strongest characters post Original Quest. I even like Shen Shen's storyline, and I respectfully disagree about where she's going. I always felt she was more 'throwaway' and simply acted as contrast to Leetah's seriousness in story, and it's nice to see her have more depth and development. And by god, it makes sense that she becomes a human midwife. I still cannot understand what the point even was in the first place to have an elf midwife when they pop them out so easily and yet also infrequently. I like Shen Shen having a little more depth. I loved finding out how Kahvi died, and seeing her in the palace, and also getting the story about Windkin and how Tyldak died (sad story) . I like seeing Mender turn more and more 'grey' and take actual pleasure in killing humans.

I liked all of these progressions, including the elf separation and possible divorce of Moonshade and Strongbow.

But these are all odds and ends, and they're not really cohesive or tying in to some greater story. What *is* the story now, exactly? I think this is the main problem, not knowing.

The entire thing with Rayek has really, really pissed me off. It's just careless and lazy. And dull. He's still a 'bad guy' and we still see people talking about how terrible he is etc.. I mean, this was one character that was always on the complicated side and more gray. Wendy's taken the easy way out, obvious, lazy way out with him. He will never get his redemption arc unless he DIES. Which is just ... it's complacent is what it is.

I'm also irritated with the Skywise/Timmain thing. Yes, yes, I realize they've set it up for a long time that he had the hots for her. It's just that the whole thing has always seemed so bloody one-sided. Time and again there've been opportunities to give Timmain more of ...oh, a PERSONALITY...and it's like watching a freakin' glacier. She hasn't been 'into' Skywise since she was in her wolf form and that was a long time ago. As an actual elf, she has NO PERSONALITY and I think this is my main problem with the Skywise/Timmain thing. This whole time he hasn't had recognition with anyone and now he gets it with this archetypal figure? I think this is what feels so unbelievable to me.
I realize she's being made out to be enigmatic or mysterious or whatever, but she's not. She just goes from dull to bitchy.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:26 pm

manga wrote:

#1: FQ is slated for 24 issues, so issue #10 isn't even the halfway point. .

If this pace goes on, than nothing will happen until #24  
Hopefully this 'moving chess pieces at their places' is finally over

Maybe the stories of future quest and rogue's curse will get rendered obsolete, I have no idea how they can fit Jink into this
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:46 pm

manga wrote:

Tymber, "sup" as the verb form of "to eat supper" has been around for a long time. Wendy's not cutting corners to make that rhyme.

Certainly! But the word "bro" has been around for a long time too. But would you be okay, if he made the rhyme of, "Don't look to me bro, you must decide where to go!"

To me, it seemed very out of place. Because a word exists doesn't mean it "feels" right (to me) in the ElfQuest universe. "Sup", "bro", "dude" and a mess of other slangs that people in the "real world" use does not necessarily mean it would translate well being used in ElfQuest.

But it wasn't just the "sup" - but Two-Edge's rhyming in general seems very... lack luster in this issue.


manga wrote:

#2: "When we first met Cutter, his wolf-friend Nightrunner warned him of danger via a crude sending. At that point in the story, a few of the Wolfrider wolves retained just enough elf-blood (from the time of Timmain and Timmorn) to be able to send. Now, in the time of Final Quest, many thousands of years later, that “blood” (and ability) has been completely diluted – bred out, actually – to the point where the Wolfriders’ lupine friends are 100 percent wolf. So no, they can no longer send."      No more elf-blooded wolves at all, though it seems to me that by the same logic, the Wolfriders shouldn't have much wolf blood left either.

I think this can probably be described that the Elves still used it frequently for hunting and what not, so they retained the ability to send.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:50 pm

Zadzi wrote:

To be clear, I thought the first 5 issues of FQ were decent in terms of story

I agree. I was enjoying it - despite being confused a little (it'd been eons since I read anything other than OQ, SaBM & KotBW - which I re-read pretty frequently). But despite not remembering a lot of the things, the first few issues genuinely had me excited. I blabbed all over the comic book podcast I do how much I was loving it. If I were to talk about where the series is now - it'd be a lot less favorable.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:54 pm

Going back to Moonshade and Strongbow, I have to wonder if her stay for the New Green wasn't partly prompted by the scene with Rayek and Winnowill. It may have reminded her of someone who loved her as desperately as Rayek loves (or thinks he loves) Winnowill but who, unlike Rayek, did let her go.

So that in the eye to everyone dissing Strongbow for that recent story arc. "If you love something, leg it go" doesn't mean "without letting them know it will hurt to lose them."
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:59 pm

@Tymber:Hey! What comic book podcast? Links!

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:43 pm

Lunakat wrote:
@Tymber:Hey! What comic book podcast? Links!

If you're so inclined to hear me (and Maico) ramble about comics, it's all on iTunes, but also available for downloading or even streaming from our site (if you don't want to download the MP3 or don't have iTunes or whatever). All of the "Issues" so far are here:

http://comicreliefpodcast.com/issues

We also post about various things (by we, I mean ME since Maico never posts...)
http://comicreliefpodcast.com/


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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:03 pm

If, indeed, FQ is only 24 issues, well that puts a whole different slant on the pacing for me.

I had thought that the story arc for FQ would be quite a bit bigger than what would fit into 24 issues, and i have to wonder if, indeed, it was outlined as such but the publisher told them "our research from the last 3p years of comic book publishing is that we cant go over 24 issues unless its a never ending series (like Batman, and even then the thing is broken into ADD friendly short story arcs that also conveniently fit into graphic novels later on). As you have a start and an end already published , it cant be unending, so if you want us as a publisher, you have to squeeze it into 24 issues or nothing at all."

I had wondered about it before,but until I read Manga's post about a 24 issue limit (quoted in another post), I didnt want to assume the worst. It tells me that MAYBE they dont have the page-space to dwell on some of the relatively "minor" stuff (stuff that used to make the OQ so interesting and fun to read) to get the meat and potatoes finished by the end, if you will.

Hopefully, this issue was a 'time leap' issue to get on track with plot pace vs page space and wont happen often.

A Troll can hope, right?

Still doesnt mean Im satisfied, doesnt mean I wont hope for another 24 issues afterwards.

Also doesnt mean I like the aforementioned (page back in this thread) lack of detail on the newcomer vs the potential Skywise/Timmain thing. Seems like the whole plot of FQ is about the Elves getting back together with all the other "family", not just two time-worn characters getting it on. Yet the newcomer's intro didnt even get a full mini-panel to itself without having to share with other plot points, but the two bleach blonde old timers get a half page to themselves and probably more in the next issue.

Shoot, its like "Oh hey, I wont to introduce you to someone we have been waiting a while for, someone you will all want to get to know, a really swell guy, here is..... SQUIRREL! What a nice looking squirrel.... blah blah blah squirrel, blah blah... what was I talking about?"

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:47 pm

TrollHammer wrote:

If, indeed, FQ is only 24 issues, well that puts a whole different slant on the pacing for me.
I had thought that the story arc for FQ would be quite a bit bigger than what would fit into 24 issues.
I had wondered about it before,but until I read Manga's post about a 24 issue limit (quoted in another post), I didnt want to assume the worst.  It tells me that MAYBE they dont have the page-space to dwell on some of the relatively "minor" stuff (stuff that used to make the OQ so interesting and fun to read) to get the meat and potatoes finished by the end, if you will.

The Original Quest ran 20 issues. Just 4 less than Final Quest.
The Original Quest was their first real dive into comics (not sure if Wendy had done writing elsewhere).
And the pacing of the Original Quest is infinitely better.

The Original Quest was broke into "arcs."
The arcs were (I feel) -
1. Issues #1 through #5 (Lose home to life at the Sun Village)
2. Issues #6 through #10 (life fast forwarded w/cubs to Forbidden Grove)
3. Issues #11 through #15 (The entire Blue Mountain Saga)
4. Issues #16 through #20 (the fight against the frozen trolls for the Palace)

The Final Quest?
So far it feels like:

Arc 1: All the elves take their sweet time getting to the Palace, while over here Ember and Tier are going on and on about Recognition, and then she gets captured, and then the humans prepare for war, and let's go back to the Palace, oh by the way - all these elves arrive. And hey, new reader - look, Timmain and Skywise are Recognized! What do you mean you have no idea what that means? Or the impact?

I think you make a very good point (I forgot to quote it), that Final Quest makes NO attempt - ZERO! - to even ease any NEW readers to the series. So if someone decided to pick up ElfQuest: Final Quest, for the first time, never having heard about ElfQuest but thought the art looked great - would have NO idea from it's very first issue to understand WHAT was going on.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:38 pm

manga wrote:
Going back to Moonshade and Strongbow, I have to wonder if her stay for the New Green wasn't partly prompted by the scene with Rayek and Winnowill. It may have reminded her of someone who loved her as desperately as Rayek loves (or thinks he loves) Winnowill but who, unlike Rayek, did let her go.

So that in the eye to everyone dissing Strongbow for that recent story arc. "If you love something, leg it go" doesn't mean "without letting them know it will hurt to lose them."

I do like that theory. It reminds me of a saying Mom kept around for a little while some years ago: "Let go, let it go, let all of it go.... and so comes love."

Rayek would do well to learn from that, and from Strongbow's example. (Not that it would make Winnowill want to be healed, but oh well.)

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:35 pm

But I always thought Rayek *did* let her go in a sense and just kept her in due to his having to, in Rogue's Curse. The whole thing felt wrapped up during Shards, when they had it out and he was trying to stop her. Now it feels like it's changed and it's like, Nooo, he never let her go. I mean it just doesn't make sense, story-wise. And Ekuar just seems like some doddering old fool now, following along. How is it over the course of all the time throughout Rogue's Curse this crap wasn't even mentioned or brought up in dialogue, that he had a choice? It's terrible. Again, it's like no one gives a damn about Rayek or Winnowill's story arcs so oh well....

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:42 am

It's really disturbing when you consider what no one in the Palace was at all concerned beyond a "oh, Rayek, there he goes being Rayek-like again!" sigh when he announced he was hanging on to Winnowill. I guess eternal solitary confinement isn't that big a deal when it's Winnowill suffering.

And why exactly would Winnowill never be his to possess again? Presumably once she is healed she could *choose* to haunt Rayek all she wanted. Or was Timmain lying to cover the fact that she and all the others plan to lobotomize or outright destroy Winnowill's soul? "Don't be surprised if you never hear from her again... ever... because she won't want to talk to you... not because she disappeared or anything."
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:56 am

Possessing someone and just hanging around with them are two different things.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:58 am

Tymber wrote:
Lunakat wrote:
@Tymber:Hey! What comic book podcast? Links!

If you're so inclined to hear me (and Maico) ramble about comics, it's all on iTunes, but also available for downloading or even streaming from our site (if you don't want to download the MP3 or don't have iTunes or whatever). All of the "Issues" so far are here:

http://comicreliefpodcast.com/issues

We also post about various things (by we, I mean ME since Maico never posts...)
http://comicreliefpodcast.com/

\

Cool- thanks! Can't wait to listen!

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:06 am

Zadzi wrote:


I'm also irritated with the Skywise/Timmain thing. Yes, yes, I realize they've set it up for a long time that he had the hots for her. It's just that the whole thing has always seemed so bloody one-sided. Time and again there've been opportunities to give Timmain more of ...oh, a PERSONALITY...and it's like watching a freakin' glacier. She hasn't been 'into' Skywise since she was in her wolf form and that was a long time ago. As an actual elf, she has NO PERSONALITY and I think this is my main problem with the Skywise/Timmain thing. This whole time he hasn't had recognition with anyone and now he gets it with this archetypal figure? I think this is what feels so unbelievable to me.
I realize she's being made out to be enigmatic or mysterious or whatever, but she's not. She just goes from dull to bitchy.

Perhaps Timmain thinks she's expressing emotion and affection, but after tens of thousands of years as a wolf, she just forgot that her ears don't move and her tail can't wag?

Seriously though, I really hate the whole Skywise/Timmain thing. Its just heinous. It's been hinted at for so long I was hoping it was just a red herring, surely the Pinis wouldn't be that obvious? But no, it looks like they're going there after all. Timmain is just so bland and unlikeable. Literally any of his previous lovemates would have been a better match for him, although I was hoping for someone cool and new.

I don't think it's recognition though, at least not yet. Recognition has always been shown by the 'recognition star' but there wasn't one in that panel of the two of them.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:43 am

Stargazer wrote:
Perhaps Timmain thinks she's expressing emotion and affection, but after tens of thousands of years as a wolf, she just forgot that her ears don't move and her tail can't wag?

That's entirely possible. She hasn't been an elf very long. She's actually an alien who, it seems, had very limited facial expression. And then, most of the rest of the time she was being a wolf. It makes sense she would be remote and strange.

Stargazer wrote:
It's been hinted at for so long I was hoping it was just a red herring,
Elfquest doesn't really do red herrings. I know everyone keeps saying it does.. but it doesn't. I can't think of a legitimate red herring yet. Maybe one or two-- but nothing major comes to mind. Everything has always been pretty clear and straightforward.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:53 am

Yeah, it was just wishful thinking, because I really didn't want to see him end up with Timmain.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:44 am

I completely understand. I think we all kind of wanted Skywise to eventually have what Cutter has-- a mutually supportive, committed, loving and down-to-earth relationship. Is Timmain even capable of that? Is Skywise?

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #10   Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:57 am

Stargazer wrote:

Perhaps Timmain thinks she's expressing emotion and affection, but after tens of thousands of years as a wolf, she just forgot that her ears don't move and her tail can't wag?

And that's another thing - in issue #9, she was being completely bitchy to Skywise. And in Issue #10, he's like, "Man, she's a hottie! I can't get her out of my mind!" Then by the end of Issue #10, Timmain's like, "Oh! Look! I shaped myself to be your size! Let's go make beautiful music together!"

It just feels like it's everywhere.

It's like trying to watch a tennis match while fast forwarding the entire thing. My eyes are back and forth so much I have a headache.

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Final Quest #10
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