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 Who is your least favorite elf?

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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:12 am

Sun girl, I almost sneezed out my grilled cheese sandwich through my nose after reading what you just wrote.

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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:05 am

@Kindredsoul wrote:
Never thought I would say this ever but....

I'm not liking Cutter much lately -.- Maybe it's because he's gotten more passive with age, I don't know, but it's like he's taken an unspoken step away from being/acting like a chief and just going along with what others want done, or wants to do. Especially in the beginning when Ember and her tribe were in such danger.

The Cutter I remember with the fiery spirit and value of life would have told Ember there's a time to fight for the Way, and then there's survival and YOUR tribe. She refused help from the Palace and the others for foolish reasons, in my opinion, especially when she knew HER tribe's lives were at stake and being hunted. Still, she denied any outside help. The Cutter I remember would have stepped up for the sake of saving elfin lives and dealt with his daughter's wrath for going against her.
Instead he sat merrily by with a basket of berries in the pretty Palace discussing elfin philosophy.

Rolling Eyes  

Where was Bearclaw's spirit to backhand his son in the back of his head and saying, "GET OFF YOUR ASS!"?

I think it was basically killing him to not go and rescue her, but he had to trust her judgement; she's an adult. No matter how much he might have wanted to fly off in a Palace pod and save his "baby girl", he just couldn't because she wasn't a baby anymore but an adult chieftess in her own right who had specifically asked not to be rescued unless there was no other way. If Cutter and gone to save her anyway it would've been the same as saying "Well, cubling, you clearly don't know what's best for you. Let daddy take care of things."
Then when she finally did call he was overjoyed, and then they all agreed that of course "Save him" actually meant "Save us"

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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:38 am

I agree with red. Also-- that whole incident only lasted two days in the timeframe of the story. It just felt like longer to us because we had to wait months for the issues to come out. But a couple days is not an unreasonable amount of time.

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Kindredsoul

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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:56 pm

Again, I said her and the whole tribe. It wasn’t just about Ember, or daddy’s little girl trying to make a point. It was many lives at stake, not just hers alone. That’s what made how the situation was handled by both chiefs completely reckless when the entire value of the EQ plot has always been the value of elfin life since there’s not that many elves as compared to the amount of humans always trying to kill them.

As for the time issue, I didn’t even bring that up, but since it is now, ok. When many lives are in obvious danger (being hunted to be murdered), respecting Ember’s wishes for the sake of pride for just 5 minutes when the entire tribe is in danger like that is simply reckless. So yes, a day or two is an unreasonable amount of time when an entire tribe's lives are at stake from being put to imminent death. That was the inevitable outcome had the humans caught up with them. Ember knew that. Cutter knew that. And they both decided to hold off from helping them as soon as they needed it.

All the hundreds of years of experience Cutter has endured in this, the lives he already knew were lost by human hands in the past, and how quickly humans have done so when elfin guard was let down for just mere moments, is what made his decision to just sit back and do nothing at first completely absurd to me.

It made both of them look like fools, and it just went against the character of both Ember and Cutter for the sake of a story plot.

I'm not trying to say Cutter or Ember are bad chiefs. It was just a stupid set up that went against who Ember and Cutter really are, and I blame that folly on the writers.

It's just my opinion, that's all.
:faceplant:

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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:35 pm

Didn't Ember call Suntop to summon the palace around that time though? And Skywise and Timmain were taking it out for a joyride, so they all had to go hang out with the trolls?
Was this the same time that you're talking about?
Or in FQ when Ember let herself get captured right after recognizing Teir?

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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:02 pm

She's talking about final quest.

Ember was trying to solve the problem herself to stick to the way. I'm pretty sure that her Wolfriders had faced various life threatening situations in the past, just like generations of Wolfriders before them, without calling the Palace for help. That was the whole point of her tribe even existing-- to see if they could still survive that way.

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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:43 pm

Let me just say Ember really fell down my list of "favorite" character ranking for complaining to Cutter "What about the WAAAAAAAAY?!" when he'd just called in the cavalry to save her and Teir. Anyone else wanted Cutter to give her the stink eye and ask: "Do you want me to turn this Palace around, young lady? Cause I can do that! I can drop you right back in that village square and let them keep throwing veggies at you!"

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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:27 am

Quote :
 I'm pretty sure that her Wolfriders had faced various life threatening situations in the past, just like generations of Wolfriders before them, without calling the Palace for help.

Indeed… but that was before guns were a part of the human arsenal. After what Ember witnessed, a gun fired right next to her head, she still refuses to accept help...

Common now…. Suspect

The whole “she wanted to keep to the Way” reasoning is stretching it when up against good ol’ common sense we all know Ember and Cutter have. Especially when a weapon like that (which no elf had ever seen before) is fired off right next to the face.

Like I said… writer’s folly. No fault to the characters themselves Wink Still makes a reader extremely frustrated when it’s characters one is quite fond of

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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:58 am

Wasn't it right after that that she asked for help?

As I remember (maybe not correctly?), the gun was fired-- Teir tried to contact her because he sensed she was freaked out-- she blocked him out-- he fell off a cliff-- she asked for help?

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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:04 am

Yeah that whole clusterfuck was totally disorienting. One second she was being spat on and shocked at the gun thing, the next she was on Cutter's lap and complaining about the palace. Fun times.

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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:33 am

I no longer have access to the issue, so if I’m wrong about when she called for help then I’ll be first to say my bad.

But I still stand by my point. And the fact that waiting a day or two was irresponsible just for the sake of “keeping the Way”

Because if Cutter went and did that when the humans captured Redlance, he wouldn’t have lasted “a day or two”. So how is that any different than when Ember was captured?  Djun was a nicer guy than the Shaman?

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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:55 am

Another thing that really pissed me off about Member's character during FQ was that reflection about how if Krim hadn't died she never would have Recognized Teir and was it so bad to think something good came of the Djun's attack.

*sigh* so I know what Wendy is trying to say. From death comes new life, sunrise sunset, etc. But considering Ember doesn't want the kid, just the bond with Teir... uh, you could have pulled a Nightfall and just TOLD him your soulname years ago. But that's not the Way, Ember says. Teir has to find it, apparently. And we all know (and presumably the elves have noticed too ) that Recognitions usually follow death OR a sudden disruption (new tribe being found, tirbe splitting up, new territory, etc.)

So by linking Krim's death with their Recognition... I know Ember didn't mean "Krim died, but hey, it was the tradeoff for my Recognition, so yay for that!" but that's how it came off. And if the whole point of that Recognition was to "make up" the life lost when Krim went kamikaze, and Ember has put it on indefinite hold because she doesn't really want a cub... then Ember REALLY has no right to call herself keeper of the way.

Which, you know, cool. I've never been shy about my opinion on the general suckiness of the Way. But I can't stand how sanctimonious New Ember gets about it - until it inconveniences her own desires.

I can just picture Krim in the Palace  thinking "well I sure didn't die just so you Teir could call you Zheel!"
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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:31 am

Eh, good point, Wingthing. All of Ember's talk about 'the way' amidst the denial of recognition's intended call to procreate. It makes no sense. Lots of holes.
I actually miss the Ember that was being shaped in Wild Hunt.

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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:39 am

There is so much contradiction. It never used to be so contradictory- did it?

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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:56 am

Not all at once that I recall, no. The contradictions were present in some way before, I feel...but they never felt so compressed and obvious.

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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:54 am

@Kindredsoul wrote:
I no longer have access to the issue, so if I’m wrong about when she called for help then I’ll be first to say my bad.

But I still stand by my point. And the fact that waiting a day or two was irresponsible just for the sake of “keeping the Way”

Because if Cutter went and did that when the humans captured Redlance, he wouldn’t have lasted “a day or two”. So how is that any different than when Ember was captured?  Djun was a nicer guy than the Shaman?

Well, I don't know what you think you might be wrong about.
The difference between this situation and back when Redlance was captured is that Cutter was Redlance's chief, making Redlance Cutter's responsibility, whereas Ember is a chief in her own right, having responsibiliy over her own tribe. Despite being Cutter's daughter Ember - and her tribe - is not Cutter's responsibility.
The fault during the entire thing was not on Cutter's part, it was on Ember's. She was the one who made the decision not to have any magic rescues; Cutter simply had to accept that his daughter is an adult and had to let her make her own decisions, including her own mistakes.
If Cutter had any fault it at all it happened way back during HY, when he told Ember to go off an be chief in her own right while he was still alive, putting Ember in the rather complicated situation of "I'm a chieftess but my father is still alive, so there might be some who think I shouldn't be chief." (Moonshade during HY).


@wingthing wrote:
Another thing that really pissed me off about Member's character during FQ was that reflection about how if Krim hadn't died she never would have Recognized Teir and was it so bad to think something good came of the Djun's attack.

Member? The unknown fusion of Ember and Mender?
Anyway, Ember actually did express remorse over feeling that something good came of Krim's death. She's feeling the slightest tinge of happiness that Krim's death spurred Teir to find her soulname, but she knows it's horrible.

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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:41 am

@Lunakat wrote:
There is so much contradiction. It never used to be so contradictory- did it?

There were some contradictions in the past, but I think they were never so… fundamental as they are now. I mean, a lot of the core "truths" of Elfquest seems to have been proved false in FQ. "No-one can refuse Recognition!" debunked. "No elf must die!" debunked.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:38 am

I'd say "No elf must die!" was proven false a long time ago. Back when... Adya was killed.


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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:30 am

I always took the 'no elf must die' as 'you can't actively let an elf, who is in danger,die if you are able to help'.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:09 pm

@Shadowpath wrote:
I always took the 'no elf must die' as 'you can't actively let an elf, who is in danger,die if you are able to help'.

Right. That was never a truism or fact of life, or even the philosophy of elves at large. It was just Cutter's personal, moral code that he came up with on the Bridge of Destiny when he decided to save Rayek. Obviously elves had been dying all along and continued dying. He just felt that he was morally compelled to save an elf life if he could-- even if it happened to be the life of his enemy.

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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:41 pm

Yes, obviously elves can die, that's not what I mean. I mean the elf who died on the way to the Palace is considered to be No Big Deal, even though they totally could have helped them. I know it's not the same circumstances as when Cutter said that line originally, but it's still something that feels extremely jarring to the "all life is precious" kind of philosophy the elves used to espouse.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:00 pm

Back when Cutter said it, they didn't know elf spirits lived on in the palace, right? So maybe now that they know that, death is not that bad, anymore. Especially since the elfs can actually talk to the dead. (To be honest I don't agree with this viewpoint but I think this is the reasoning behind it.)

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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:03 pm

@sun girl wrote:
I mean the elf who died on the way to the Palace is considered to be No Big Deal, even though they totally could have helped them. I know it's not the same circumstances as when Cutter said that line originally, but it's still something that feels extremely jarring to the "all life is precious" kind of philosophy the elves used to espouse.

I don't get that either! I can't help but think it's just a way to make easy drama,plot-wise.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:04 pm

That wasn't everyone's philosophy-- just Cutter's.

And I think Sefra's right. Even his perspective on life and death has changed since he made that pronouncement. That was before he knew about his own mortality, much less that spirits could live on after death.

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PostSubject: Re: Who is your least favorite elf?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:09 pm

@Shadowpath wrote:


I don't get that either! I can't help but think it's just a way to make easy drama,plot-wise.

I think it was a way for Wendy to not have to draw new elves and introduce a bunch of new characters. Still-- why send out "the call" and wait ten years? Why not have the party happen sooner? The Go Backs could have made it within a year-- and maybe one or two new people could have shown up with others being on the way... and then that shindig of chiefs could have happened without it being strange that only three or four elves (two in wrap stuff and one dead) rsvped within a ten year span.

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