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Davrille

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PostSubject: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:26 am

Okay, I need to say this, and say it openly. so I'm posting here, since I can't say this on the EQ official FB.

Wendy's retcon about the Scroll of Colors is dumb.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

It contradicts what she set up in the Original Quest. It contradicts what's been shown of it since! (Human!Winnowill being unable to read the Scroll of Colors until it responds to Rayek's presence drawing nearer).

This is why I hate authors/creators who retcon part of their creation based on changes in personal views in the real world: they tend to screw up what went before. See: Andre norton's witch world and the introduction of Wicca, MZB's Darkover, etc.
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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:41 am

This is in response to this comment by Wendy:

From Wendy: The Scroll of Colors is a very interesting mystical/magical device. It shows what has happened, what is happening and what will happen - but in limitless different versions, all true. One thread of color shows things happening one way. Another thread of color plays the very same thing out in a different way. It keeps changing via the butterfly effect. And so on ad infinitum. There's not enough time in the Universe to know the Scroll completely.

UPDATE: the Scroll of Colors is not a computer. It does not deliver information on command. It's not something one can "use" for any active purpose. When it's activated by levitation so it can turn, the colors "play" as they will. They cannot be controlled or manipulated. They are only to be read, studied and contemplated. We humans read meaning into all sorts of symbols in the form of writing. Elves read colors. The subtlest difference in hues represents entirely different threads of elfin history. The Sun Folk, who are now known as the Palace Dwellers spend most of their time learning how to read the Scroll and gaining tidbits of knowledge from it. Savah can read it like a pro and Sunstream's not far behind. But no one, not even Timmain, can "google" the Scroll of Colors.

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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:42 am

I'm not convinced she's retconning. I think it's always been pretty ambiguous how the scroll of colors works...

What do the rest of you think?

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Miss Gillespie

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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:14 am

So Timmain might have "lied" at the end of OQ (when she possessed Suntop), it didn't show the real past but a past, that might have been

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Redhead Ember

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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:52 am

I think it showed the timeline that Timmain experienced, the timeline lead to the events of Elfquest.
However, if one were to look long enough I think they might see the timeline as what would have happened if the trolls hadn't rebelled, as what would have happened if the Coneheads-come-Firstcomers hadn't attempted to land on WoTM in the first place, as what would have happened if Rayek had gone through with his stop-the-time-crash plan.
What would have happened if Cutter had been a girl and Joyleaf had actually booted Bearclaw from chief-hood? Oh... wait...

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Outlier

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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:51 am

Lunakat wrote:
I'm not convinced she's retconning. I think it's always been pretty ambiguous how the scroll of colors works...

What do the rest of you think?

As it was presented at the end of the original quest, I would have said that Timmain was controlling the Scroll, fast forwarding and rewinding to certain points that she wanted to show. And I got the impression that it was only recording what had happened to the palace or its inhabitants.

So, yeah, to me it sounds like Wendy has changed her thoughts over time about what the Scroll does. Seems like there's going to be a plot point coming up about something showing up in the Scroll and there being uncertainty about whether it would represent what would happen or what might happen, and what choices would create or prevent the event.

Probably what Timmain will show Cutter next issue.

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wingthing

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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:28 pm

Redhead Ember wrote:

What would have happened if Cutter had been a girl and Joyleaf had actually booted Bearclaw from chief-hood? Oh... wait...

Awwwww yeah! Hammy

Outlier wrote:

So, yeah, to me it sounds like Wendy has changed her thoughts over time about what the Scroll does. Seems like there's going to be a plot point coming up about something showing up in the Scroll.

Yep, this smells of an imminent retcon, of which there seem to be so many in FQ. (Remember when Jarrah had silver hair, anyone? Remember when Aurek had a sweet bachelor pad and his own microbrewery?)

Okay, no one has ever specifically said "Scroll, show me...." and had instant results, so I can see how Wendy could claim "oh, you were just *assuming* it works like a computer." But off the top of my head, I can recall...

- Timmain "Googling" the troll rebellion in OQ.
- Rayek using the Scroll to sync up the moment to merge Palaces in KoBW
- Everyone being terrified that Winnowill would "spy" on them using the Scroll in the Shards War.
- Windkin focusing on the Scroll and calling for Kahvi's spirit

I'm sure Wendy has a very good explanation prepared of how these and other instances were not in fact "controlling" the Scroll. But, yeah, this smacks of a new plot point that will total contradict OQ, and she's laying the groundwork now with some creative reinterpretations to head off criticism when the issue drops.
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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:37 pm

Okay- you guys have a point.

The understanding I had was that the scroll records the past-- but only shows possible futures.

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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:03 pm

wingthing wrote:


(Remember when Jarrah had silver hair, anyone? Remember when Aurek had a sweet bachelor pad and his own microbrewery?)

*Snort* You crack me up, Wingthing.

I never understood what the deal is exactly with the scroll of colors, I mean I get it but I don't. Maybe it was deliberately left vague because even Wendy didn't exactly understand it either?
Wasn't there some kind of connection between Aurek's egg and the scrolls? To where the information was identical or something?

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G0lden

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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:43 pm

I always thought the Scroll of Colors showed the past from a particular users point of view. Timmain showed the history of her people and the changes that occurred during their travels. This is based on the group that she was with when they left for the stars once their home world failed. It apparently doesn't show where mistakes were made. If it did the High Ones would have never assumed that a group of fellow travelers had been on the World of Two Moons, plus they would of had an inkling of their helpers discontent. We know the Scrolls show what is, by the means of focusing on a particular event of person, such as Windkin did. Future events would be shown as different possibilities and not set in stone.

So it is not a computer, but in holds vast knowledge and knowledge to be learned.

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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:30 pm

Maybe Timmain was able to "call up" the story of the Origin of the Elves on WoTM because she had lived that story, but she couldn't as easily have "called up" one of the other threads.
It wasn't exactly a "walk in the park" either; she had to go into wrapstuff, practically possess Suntop and - later - get help from Rayek to turn the Scroll.

My guess is that everytime a choice is made the Scroll shows not just the result of the choice actually being made, but also all the possible results of all the possible other choices, which would then lead to other choices and so on... and I'm not just talking major choices, but also small - seemingly insignificant - ones, such as which way to go around a tree in your way.
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Davrille

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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:38 pm

Wendy's answer side-stepped my question on the Facebook page. Sigh.
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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:38 am

My thoughts... Ill probably go in and put more in after a night's sleep.
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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:20 am

I guess that when you're reading the Scroll you have to be very careful that you stay on the "right path", so to speak.
For example; when Timmain looked up the Troll Rebellion she had to avoid falling for the temptation to look at what would have happened if the Rebellion hadn't happened. She might also have been tempted to look at a thread in which it was Haken, rather than Adya who died.
Someone on FB also suggested that maybe Rayek spent a great deal of time looking at a thread in which the Wolfriders never came to Sorrow's End.
As for simpy 'taking the plunge' and look at everything, every choice, every option, at the same time; I think that would drive anyone mad.

Threads are constantly spreading up, and threads are constantly merging.
Even if Redlance hadn't decided to track that deer on his own, with everything that resultet from that rather stupid - sorry Redlance - decision, the humans might still have decided to burn down the forest.
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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:42 am

Why would the Scroll show things that could have happened? Have we ever seen that?

I think it would make sense if it recorded events that have happened.. and, based on those, swirled around some possible futures-- until the future became the present and occurred. At which point it would become the past and get recorded. Otherwise-- what's the point? It could show a million dozen pictures of anything and you'd never know what's what.

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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:23 am

Because that's what Wendy said:

Quote :
From Wendy: The Scroll of Colors is a very interesting mystical/magical device. It shows what has happened, what is happening and what will happen - but in limitless different versions, all true. One thread of color shows things happening one way. Another thread of color plays the very same thing out in a different way. It keeps changing via the butterfly effect. And so on ad infinitum. There's not enough time in the Universe to know the Scroll completely.

We already know that time doesn't work the same way in the Spirit World as in the Physical World, so even the "Now" you'd live in when reading the Scroll wouldn't be the same as the "Now" of the Scroll.



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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:20 pm

I think I'm completely lost on what the hell the scroll does. I sometimes think they sound like the akashic records or something, the way they're described.

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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:37 pm

I think the Scroll records everything, including not just things that happened in the "canon" Elfquest story, but also what happened in various Worldpool tales, and even random (AU) fanfics.
And I think in the Scroll everything happens now.

In fact the more I think about it the more I get convinced that this Showing every possible past, present, and future thing might have something to do with Cutter's freakout.
He could've seen a timeline in which he was never reunited with Leetah, Skywise and the cubs.
He could've seen the timeline in which Skywise actually did die at that waterfall.
He could've seen the timeline of that Worldpool tale in which he's half human.
He could've seen the Alternaverse. Sorry, wingthing. I know Swift and your Rayek love each other, but I think Cutter would find the thought of being recognized to Rayek rather unsettling, as well as the thought of being a girl.
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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:20 pm

I dunno. I'm with Lunakat-- I prefer to think that once an event has become the actual historical past, it alone is preserved; that only the future has infinite permutations. It just makes more sense to me.

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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:18 pm

@ Redhead Ember: I like your speculation about the reasons Cutter might freak out. Remember in Dreamtime how he has a nightmare about falling off the bridge of destiny, Rayek coming in to take Leetah, and then he wakes up, counting everyone. I know he had some PTSD about his family being away and having Rayek 'turn him human'...although Cutter was always more susceptible to this due to his nature bending and changing from 'the way'.
Maybe it's related to the scrolls, who knows, maybe he sees some alternate reality.
I need to go back and read again about the scrolls in OQ, but I'm reluctant to because it sounds like Wendy's changing it, so I have no idea.

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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:44 pm

Redhead Ember wrote:
I guess that when you're reading the Scroll you have to be very careful that you stay on the "right path", so to speak.
For example; when Timmain looked up the Troll Rebellion she had to avoid falling for the temptation to look at what would have happened if the Rebellion hadn't happened. She might also have been tempted to look at a thread in which it was Haken, rather than Adya who died.

But this would still be controlling the Scroll, which you can't do. I agree with Trollhammer, a device that only shows random scenes that may or not have happened seems pretty functionally useless.

Maybe it's like a big tangle of multicolored yarns wadded up in a ball. If you start looking at it from different sides, you may be able to pick out a certain color strand, and by focusing on that one enough you might get an idea of most of it's path inside the tangle.

I don't really understand why Savah would be better at it than anyone else. Does it rely on some form of genetic memory that's stronger in her because of her age? Ekuar should be a whiz then, too.

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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:20 pm

Well, they did call her the mother of memory in the Sun Village. Maybe because she was the eldest but also because her function was to meditate on the past and be a reminder to her tribe, especially after having come from the forest to the desert ? It's like the elfin version of being an old photo album.

Ekuar would be a whiz and he probably is, but maybe having spent so many years in captivity, captured in troll caves, kept him isolated...plus rock shaping seems to be more his 'gift'.

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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:41 am

I'm too lazy to look the correct term up, but there is this theory in higher physics, that there are a gazillion universes, where anything that could've happened, happened.

Who knows, maybe the palace can't jump in time but it can jump between dimensions.

If you had to exactly know, for which thread of colour you're looking, the scrolls are indeed useless. How are you supposed, that you actually picked the right thread?

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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:36 am

KR Wordgazer wrote:
I dunno.  I'm with Lunakat-- I prefer to think that once an event has become the actual historical past, it alone is preserved; that only the future has infinite permutations.  It just makes more sense to me.

I don't think the Scroll is supposed to be easy to understand and make sense.



Outlier wrote:
But this would still be controlling the Scroll, which you can't do. I agree with Trollhammer, a device that only shows random scenes that may or not have happened seems pretty functionally useless.

I think it would be more controlling yourself. If you can't, and for just a brief moment think something like I wonder what would have happened if... the Scroll might take you down that thread.
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PostSubject: Re: The Scroll of Colors and retconning   Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:50 am

Redhead Ember wrote:
I think it would be more controlling yourself. If you can't, and for just a brief moment think something like I wonder what would have happened if... the Scroll might take you down that thread.

PLEASE tell me Cutter tries to read the Scroll and goes insane! That would be a hundred Christmases rolled into one!

... I'd ask for Timmain, but she's clearly already off her rocker.
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