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Trollbabe

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PostSubject: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:26 pm

I didn't want to start too narrow a topic thread, when I thought up this question.
We see Wolfriders mostly using bows and arrows for distance, spears closer up, and swords and knives for contact. They also use darts, slingshots and throwing knives.

I wonder if they set traps before they had Preservers? Or would they consider it unsporting?

Also, the boomerang and the yo-yo are toys that originated as small game hunting weapons. Wouldn't it be cool to see Elves hunting with these?

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TrollHammer

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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:05 am

This is awesome!

I think I remember something about an Elf's snares getting ruined back in early Mantricker's time, before preservers. Ill have to look it up.

Dont forget Treestump's axe! I guess he was caught using it as a ranged weapon (which lead him to needing to make a new one), but before then I dont recall him throwing it much (kind of a bad idea to throw a melee weapon without anything to back it up).

I dont know if its 'canon', but supposedly Redrash was making Cutter a "slingstone", though we never see another reference to one.

While it took them some time to realize it was happening, they didnt seem too surprised at the poisoned bait that the humans left out and killed strongbow's bond beast. Appalled, and rejecting of the concept, but it wasnt alien.

The Trolls, on the otherhand, are depicted as having used pitfall traps over 8000 years before cutter was born, and Id like to say Id seen a spring powered animal trap somewhere but couldnt say where. Would be easy for them to make or figure out.

Im sure that any mechanical snare, tripline, trap, or other mechanation of this type was easily within Two-Edge's capability, and it wouldnt suprise me if, during his 18000+ years of tinkering, he hadnt spent some time forming great marvels of animal entrapment, especially considering the grand scale of the traps he laid for the participants in his "game" leading to his "golden hoard".

Ill need to look those up again to be sure, but I think thats a start.
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Trollbabe

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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:51 pm

The Trolls used pitfall traps to catch large animals, possibly even dinosaurs if they were still around. Troll communities were apparently big enough to process an entire mastodon.

I don't think Wolfriders, living so close to hostile humans, could have dug pit traps without drawing attention. They didn't use a pit to trap Madcoil.

Our animal control officers use a bear trap that is essentially a big green barrel mounted on the bed of a small pickup truck. It has a gate that swings shut. (I helped provide the bait for a successful trapping once - long story.) Two-Edge could easily make something like it.

One thing that has always confused me about slingshots: Ember appears somewhere with a Y-shaped slingshot. Redrash was making a similar device, though I don't know why he was using flat metal. How do these devices work without rubber bands?

I thought the original slingshot was what shepherds used to protect their flocks, and what David used to kill Goliath. It's a straplike device with a depression in the middle. You hold the ends together, kind of folded in half, and load a stone in the depression. Then you swing it around a few times to gain momentum. Finally, you release one end and the stone goes flying.

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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:22 pm

Thief, Olbar's disowned brother, used a sling to take down Skywise. But people are mistaking it takes more than two or three swings to get the stone going; some expert claim that robs the ammo of momentum.

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Embala

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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:46 pm

Let's try a listing - not conclusively for sure. I might edit this for additions.


Wolfriders

knives (bone, stone and metal knives, depending on time period and luck of the owner)
swords (basically long and/or fancy knives)
bow and arrow
arrow whip and arrow(dart?)
spear
slingshot (mainly as a childhood weapon)
axe
net trap
sling traps
spring-pole trap or similar constuctions
biological weapons (like bees/wasps' nest, skunk)
bola (Cutter used the footcuffs like a bola - he seemed familiar with the concept)

I'm sure they know about pitfalls too and would not mind to use traps in general if necessary. They simply have too much fun hunting with their traditional weapons to use traps without need.

It's hard to see them use poisoned bait. They are familiar with it - thanks to humans. Doubt the would use this option, tho.


Sunfolk

knife
spear
probably simple wands against snakes and smal predators

later on arrow whips and all weapons Wolfriders are familiar with


Gliders

knife
claw whip
spear
rope, possibly lassos
not sure whether I've seen something like a bola...
their birds


Go-Backs

knive
sword
spear
metal antler tips


Wavedancers

knife
spear/harpune


Trolls

knife
sword
axe (... not sure but most likely)
club
spiked mace
crossbow
crossbow cannon
pitfalls
stone avalanche
poison (like Maggoty's sleeping dust)

any kind of trap Two-Edge can make up


Humans

FIRE
*is too lazy for this*



Bola, yo-yo and boomerang would be a great idea for elves, Trollbabe. They are weapons that do not require metal processing. Not exactly for Wolfriders tho ... I guess this kind of weapons are not very practical in forest and bush aera. Would be very appropriate for plains elves and desert elves.

The sunfolk has relied too long on Rayek ... looks like the common Sunvillager they had almost no weapons at all ... besides knives as a working tool.

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TrollHammer

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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:29 pm

Good ones, Embala!, a couple that came to mind reading that were that the Gobacks weaponized their stags with metal points on their antlers (which doesnt make sense-- where did they get the metal, and antlers are only suitable for putting such things on for a fraction of the year before they fall off and regrow). The Wolfriders also used their wolves as living weapons, as do most that control bond-beasts.

I can see how contemporary slingshots would end up getting drawn by someone hearing about slings being an ancient weapon, however to a degree it isn't forgivable, with how much other research that had been done here and there throughout the story. While latex is a natural thing found in varying quantities in many plants, there is a huge leap needed requiring the realization that it is there and what it could be used for. Besides, leather slings are by no means low powered and easy to make with primitive materials.

There are a series of other throwing devices that are somewhere between a hand held catapult and the arrow-whips depicted that would have been of-era, but I have not seen any.
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Miss Gillespie

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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:54 am

I always found the design of these arrow-whips incredible stupid. Such a weapon wouldn't work (you'd release the arrow and the feathers of the arrow would get stuck in the loop of the whip). Wendy probably discarded it when Dart became too grown up and cool to use such a silly weapon

Ember uses a "real" slingshot on HY when she's hunting the porcupine Wink

One uses axes if you have to axe something down, so if there are such things in the dungeons, the trolls probably will have axes Smile
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Outlier

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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:53 am

I am so glad to see that someone else is bothered by the arrow - whip design. That has irritated me since that issue came out. I can never read that scene without thinking about how they're supposed to work.

I think spring-loaded traps or snares are featured in the Huntress Sky fire story about the snow beast. If the elves didn't use them themselves, I'm sure they were familiar from human use.

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TrollHammer

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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:27 pm

Trying to find what the "Atlatl" (stick thrown arrow) was called, I came across this:http://sensiblesurvival.org/2013/01/02/make-a-throwing-arrow/

It describes an arrow that is throw using a piece of string, however the string does come loose from the arrow as it is released. The demonstrator states he can get about 40-50 yards out of it, about half to a third the range of a high powered bow (I have a 75lb recurve I used in a an archery golf game and was able to make a 120 yard shot at one point).

Yes, the arrow-whips bothered me, I figured it had to release at the arrowhead, but there is no easy way (other than above) to make a good hook with primitive materials (flint arrowheads kind of hook in the back, but are sharp and would cut the string).

Another thing that was a minor question for me was Moonshade's (and other tanner's) tanning baths: where were these located so that the humans wouldnt find them, but the stench didnt drive everyone out of the holt? As far as I understand, hide tanning can be quite smelly, and if it was too far from the father tree, might attract humans, Id think.
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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Wed Aug 26, 2015 3:43 pm

That's a good point about the tanning pools/baths. But I didn't see any tanning pools in OQ, they didn't show up until Dream Time...were they shown before? I know Tanner had made the discovery by accident, so they must have been used. Did humans know how to use them as well? Maybe they were similar and so they paid them no mind. I mean, humans MUST have known about tanning, I would imagine. Did Tyleet use the tanning pools? It didn't show anything about it when Ember branched out with her own tribe, or in Wild Hunt. Maybe they had another method.

It seems suddenly important to have an explanation for this, it's going to drive me crazy!

On a side note, the term 'leg lift water' has always made me titter.

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Miss Gillespie

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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:28 pm

All elves seem to wear perfectly well done clothes, even if they're all alone (the new guy, Kahvi, Egg, Teir) so just ignore the fact, that it doesn't make sense. I mean, how do you collect enough pee for tanning in the forest? If an Wolfrider has to take a leak, does s/he hold it back until the pissing-hole is close? I doubt they could even collect enough piss for tanning (it's easier in a human society, since there are so many of us). Who's doing the tanning in Cutters tribe, now that every tanner is gone (Ember on the other hand has two tanners)?

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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:39 am

Well, if there's no urine, look for oak trees. If there're no oak trees, there's bound to be an alternative. Out in Sorrow's End, Moonshade seemed to do a lot of scraping and stretching of dried hides, since there were no oaks. So I guess if it comes to it, an elf could scrape the flesh from the hide, let it dry, then stretch and scrape some more. Sam Gribley of "My Side of the Mountain" did a lot of jumping, pounding, and even chewing to soften his deer hides even with oak tannins.

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TrollHammer

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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:39 pm

Those with weaker stomachs may wish to skip the following...

Not that it is referenced in EQ, but as to just pure hide tanning there are many ways to do it. One way that some of my books discuss is using the animal's brain to tan with: scrape the fat and connective tissue from the hide (these are the things that cause decomposition, without these a leather will cure as hard rawhide if stretched to dry), then, if desired, remove the fur or hair by singeing or scraping, then rub the "inside" with the animal's brain. It is said that all animals have the exact amount of brain to cover the fur from the animal, from squirrels to deer. Then fold it or roll it up and place it in a cool, dark, dry, safe place (I think some said to bury, some said not to, its been a while since I read it). The theory is that the combination of oils and acids in the brain matter is a perfect combination for a soft hide, and this works with both fur-on and fur-off hides.

This works with any critter it seems, regardless what is around, and has been used for quite a while. It also matches what is depicted with Tanner and his lost, buried hides Finder helped him find (if I remember the story right).

As to "urine", Im sure they could use that from the bladders of the animals they hunt as well. (Im not confirming that urea or ammonia can or should be used to tan leather, I dont know, just speculating). Further, Im sure there is more than just urine used if this is a method. As I understand, soft leather needs two things to be fully processed: controlled breakdown and oil. The breakdown loosens the leather, and the oils make it soft. As oils dry out, more needs to be applied (this is why boots, saddles, and so on need oil applied regularly to last).

The one thing I have learned is that there are many ways to cure a hide, with vastly different processes and vastly different results. A friend of mine used glycerin to cure a snake skin, and it turned out soft and almost stretchy, but the scales started falling off if he rolled it back on itself too far. I cured a snake skin and a head using Borax. It is hard a cardboard but has lasted 5 years so far (still havent decided on a knife blade to put it on, so its just sitting there collecting dust.)

As to oils... they could use a coconut for coconut oil, if they have migrating swallows... ; )

Im sure rendered fat would work, though, I should read those books more....
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kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:40 pm

Have you guys seen the way those leather clothes fold, hang, etc?

I've seen a lot of good leather, at pow-wows, dance exhibits, etc.

The elves are using fantasium to tan those leathers. No other explanation.
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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:46 pm

There's a story, in BoTC, about Tanner discovering that piss tans leather. I think they ended up burying the leather and peeing on it-- and putting it somewhere that human beings came to pee as well-- so there was a lot of pee on that leather. And then they wore it.

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TrollHammer

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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:35 pm

kathleen3.0 wrote:
Have you guys seen the way those leather clothes fold, hang, etc?

I've seen a lot of good leather, at pow-wows, dance exhibits, etc.

The elves are using fantasium to tan those leathers. No other explanation.

Be that as it may, I will say deerskin/leather is a lot thinner and softer than cow leather. Rabbit skins are also very soft. All of these are much thinner than cow hide (and cow hide is split several times at that), but scaling for an elf-sized person, they would hang similarly.

Cutter would walk funny in a pair of cow hide chaps, stiff as they would be.
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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:07 pm

That's how ppl make leather, Lunakat.
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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:02 am

Good to know!

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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:52 pm

I, too, recall that saying about each animal having enough brain matter to tan its own hide.

Years ago I read that there is at least one Indian tribe in the US that uses natural tanning methods. I man had to make a custom body race for a disabled child. He used this special order leather so the chemicals in ordinary leather wouldn't irritate the child's skin.

Moon shade is so adept with leather at this point, I suspect she has a whole mental manual of tanning formulas - one for shoe leather, another for a baby's bedding, etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:07 am

Well, those humans early on in Shards who discover Ekuar's tunnel down into the troll kingdom does point out that it's a bit weird with leather as soft as silk.
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kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:17 am

Trollbabe wrote:
I, too, recall that saying about each animal having enough brain matter to tan its own hide.

Years ago I read that there is at least one Indian tribe in the US that uses natural tanning methods.  I man had to make a custom body race for a disabled child.  He used this special order leather so the chemicals in ordinary leather wouldn't irritate the child's skin.

Moon shade is so adept with leather at this point, I suspect she has a whole mental manual of tanning formulas - one for shoe leather, another for a baby's bedding, etc.

FYI, as "tribe" has unpleasant connotations, most indigenous people in the Americas prefer "Nation", eg, "Navajo Nation", or "Norway House(name of reservation" Cree Nation".
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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:49 pm

Urine is the pre 20th century Uber source of chemicals, heck till after WWI we used it in Toothpaste. Want to get rich in the Post-Apocalypse learn how to become a Fuller.

Pee the Real Liquid Gold.
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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:39 pm

Bought some dowel, will be trying out various "arrow-whip" variants and will post the results.

If anyone wants to post the image of arrow-whips being used, or a link to the digital page, itll save me time tracking it down.

Ill be trying the following:
Adladl
Arrow whip (as depicted)
String thrown arrow
(Anything else mentioned above, except traditional bow and troll type crossbow, as these wont be any reasonable comparison)

Ill even try a couple variants of an unconventional but logical variant using a modern sling shot, just as a silly curiosity.

If there is anything else anyone wants tested (tech wise), let me know! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:31 pm


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PostSubject: Re: Tools, handcrafts and weapons   Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:36 pm

The "tanning one's own hide" thing only works, because most times the size of an animal's brain correlates with its general size. Humans have more than enough brain to tan themselves, large animals as whales, hippos, elephants* do not.


*A larger brain does not equal with greater intelligence, I'm not saying whales are stupid Smile

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