Some questions about the First Comer Troll King

I had thought that the original series said that the Trolls & Preservers evolved over many generations from the animals the High Ones brought with them. Yet the First Comer King seemed to imply that he was one of the original apes that got brought on-board the Palace.Is that what happened ?

Secondly he seems to say that he will go back to being one of those ground borrowing apes when he gets back to the home world. Is that really what he wants? If so why? I don't think many humans would want to go back to being an Australopithecus

Yup, he was on the Palace to begin with. As for the first? Who knows, he could be correct.

I don't think he will return to his original form when they get back to their home world. Who knows what they will find when they get there.

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I had thought that the original series said that the Trolls & Preservers evolved over many generations from the animals the High Ones brought with them.

This was said by Timmain (via Suntop) in OQ # 20:

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Yet the First Comer King seemed to imply that he was one of the original apes that got brought on-board the Palace.

And This is from FQ #18 - how the Firstcomer Troll remembers:


For me it is one of the many contradictions between the storyline from Original quest til Final Quest - an inconsistency at least. It puzzled me the same way as it did puzzle you, mojojojo.

Timmain clearly sais:
- We saw many generations of our pets come and go.
- Our shell, suffused with self-changing magic, affected them.
- The burrowers evolved, gained thought and speach.
- Eventually they became as long lived as we.
Upshot: The Trolls as we know them are the result of a generations lasting evolution - enhanced and speeded up by the Palace.

Firstcomer Troll remembers:
- to dig and find in the burrows of our home-sphere
- the Palace changed ME
- and generations of Trolls born within it
Upshot: HE came from the homeworld as an ape-like proto-troll and was shapechanged and mentally and physically envolved by the Palace
and there were generations of Trolls born in the Palace and changed as well.

Inconsistency.   ... or misinterpretation?
Firstcomer Troll uses the term "home-sphere". Can he refer to the Palace sphere instead of the homeworld? No. Some panels later he's speaking of "Back to the palace-ship and then the home-sphere!"
Inconsistency.

Now I can make up my mind and ...
1. shrug it away as one of the many weird inconsistencies, retcons and changes and mistakes in FQ
2. go with the infamous rule #1 - "There are no ..." you know how it goes.
3. decide that one of them remembers wrong - probably Firstcomer Troll has mixed up oooold legends with reality - and the "richest soil of all" was just a "terraformed" home-world area in the Palace.
4. suppose that some proto-trolls got an extra dose of magic, became immortal first and then developed by magical transformation into Trolls.

What's right for you, for other readers ... or how much more different explanations can be found - make up your mind yourself. That's the best answer I can give here.

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Secondly he seems to say that he will go back to being one of those ground borrowing apes when he gets back to the home world. Is that really what he wants? If so why? I don't think many humans would want to go back to being an  

I don't think the Firstcomer Troll wants to regress into an "Australopithecus" proto-troll.

I can imagine what he means, tho. He remerbers that he was "digging in the home soil" - a simple being with a simple task. He remembers that he was a good digger - he did right and his task was satisfying. He was content with his life.

Then he became a rebel - and this rebellion turned out to be a major fail. "When I first saw this unfriendly world ... how I longed to undo my mischief!". This experiance was not satisfying at all ...
... nothing specific known about the following some 20,000 years ...
and then they made him King. Not a job he was fond of: "Too bad they made me King. All I do is sleep and eat ... and gaze at the treasures they bring."

He longs for this old life, satisfying work and contentness. No more worries. He considers himself as "Never smart ..." - maybe we should see him as the Troll model of Forrest Gump? Being a millionaire mawing the lawn. ^^

by the way: the panorama page of Homeworld shows him on top of a crystal tower at Savah's side in his King's mantle ... Inconsistency? Change of mind? *shrug*

mojojojo wrote:

I had thought that the original series said that the Trolls & Preservers evolved over many generations from the animals the High Ones brought with them. Yet the First Comer King seemed to imply that he was one of the original apes that got brought on-board the Palace.

Were they apes?
I had them down as rodents.
I'm sticking with rodents, 'apes' make me uncomfortable.

Good you've mentioned it, Shadowpath. In HY #6 the troll ancestors are pictured as small rodent-like amimals. Personally I was reminded of the rock hyrax.

I've skipped this part because is was declared an allegory and basically non-canon. :/ And it becomes even more difficult to make sense of this OQ-FQ inconsistency if I'd have considered this. *sigh* In my mind the Trolls started out of these small creatures ... and my first thought after The Firstcomer Troll's statements was: How can you remember what you did as a Hyrax?

Shadowpath wrote:

mojojojo wrote:

I had thought that the original series said that the Trolls & Preservers evolved over many generations from the animals the High Ones brought with them. Yet the First Comer King seemed to imply that he was one of the original apes that got brought on-board the Palace.

Were they apes?
I had them down as rodents.
I'm sticking with rodents, 'apes' make me uncomfortable.

But Timmain said they were apes
http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=OQ/OQ20&p=25

Timmain also stated that trolls ( burrowing apes) and preserves evolved in the star ship. That they both gained speech as well as thought. So the magic of the High Ones did ultimately change those within. The Trolls became willful, while the Preservers became willing helpers.

mojojojo wrote:

But  Timmain said they were apes
http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=OQ/OQ20&p=25

Proves that I'm a very visual type - it's easier for me to remenber a picture than written word.

*wonders whether a ground-digging ape might look like a hyrax*

The trolls are actually mining, not digging. But that's probably only a technicality, though.
Rich soil is interesting for a farmer, not a miner

Can "soil" have a more global meaning like ground / earth?
Trolls probably have another view on "soil" than farmers. I've imagined that "rich soil" refer to ore and and minerals and crystals. At least when you are a Troll. ^^

I imagine that their could be a bit of instinctual remembrance. Kind of like a bird's keep returning to the same spots generation after generation and some fish too. That's how I'd explain the remembering even long after leaving the homeworld. It would keep the consistency of the original text and yet make the first comer trolls words accurate in a sense as well.

If you think about it, the fact that some elves, like skywise are drawn by the stars could also be explained this way. He almost seemed to know, without knowing.

Soil would be important to Trolls. Soil would have rocks. Those rocks and soil could tell a Troll much. What type of soil for the purpose of tunneling. I live in an area that has hard panned soil. Meaning there is a lot of clay in the soil, makes digging more difficult. The rocks found could lead to more of precious metals, gems, etc.

Just a little info on rocks and soil.

I'm happy to have found this topic, because I actually stopped reading new material about five years ago.  If the Firstcomer Troll isn't a canon character, I won't concern myself with him.

BTW Part of why I identify with Trolls is my attraction to rocks and dirt.

My fictional character Cowl, under "Trollbabe's Tales", joined a community of Trolls who live separately from what they call "Kingdom Trolls."  They are situated in Fox Mountain, at the western end of a mountain range that stretches eas-west across the Original Quest continent.  (Far south and inland from Blue Mountain, before the time of Cutter's birth.}

Theres is a more liberated society, although I can't think of the right political name for them.  Their numbers are big enough to promote genetic diversity, but small enough to function as a single organization.

I'm writing an origin story for the Fox Mountain Trolls, beginning with their time aboard the Palace.

My ancestral characters resemble the creatures who flee the Palace soon after it crashes on the World of Two Moons.

I still have plenty of questions:

How many of the (whatever they are) servants of the High Ones lived on the Palace when it crashed on the WoTM?  My story begins with less than a dozen who are not involved in the Rebellion.  Some even thought it was a bad idea and looked instead for an opportunity to escape on the right planet.  For the sake of my story, those involved in the rebellion number twenty or more.

Had they started mating and reproducing in the Palace, or were they like the High Ones, who would reproduce only after they were stranded on the WoTM?  In my story, I assume they haven't, although they are distinctly male and female.  The Palace would get crowded if they did.

Why is it that the Palace crash scene always shows the rebellious servants scattering once the humans invade the Palace, then disappearing?  We assume that they take to the ground while the High Ones flee across the surface of the WoTM.   But do the Elves and Trolls really never see each other again until Cutter discovers Old Maggoty?

I don't have answers, Trollbabe, but mused about this or that myself and might even able to addsome knowledge.
I think that the Palace can adept to the need of its passengers, i.e. "grow" to offer special environments or hold a bigger number of inhabitants. During Final quest it was never mentioned that there would have been a problem to host ALL the scattered Elves and Trolls (known tribes and unknown ones) if they would have decided to leave.

@Trollbabe wrote:

How many of the (whatever they are) servants of the High Ones lived on the Palace when it crashed on the WoTM?  My story begins with less than a dozen who are not involved in the Rebellion.  Some even thought it was a bad idea and looked instead for an opportunity to escape on the right planet.  For the sake of my story, those involved in the rebellion number twenty or more.

I'm convinced that there were much more Coneheads than we've got to know during the stories - some  died during or shortly after the crash, otheres fled and spread in more or less small groups in all directions - and as you've mentioned you need a certain number to form viable groups (even for technically immortal beings).
And I think that the Proto-Trolls outnumbered the Coneheads. The reason is that they must have reproduced.

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Had they started mating and reproducing in the Palace, or were they like the High Ones, who would reproduce only after they were stranded on the WoTM?  In my story, I assume they haven't, although they are distinctly male and female.  The Palace would get crowded if they did.

The "Burrowers" started out as dassie-like creatures (or borrowing underground apes) and developed during the eternal voyage . Developing by reproduction and evolution would be the most logical way.
The "Flutterers", the third surving species on the dying Homeworld, developed into Preservers. They gained there recent shape and intelligence and found their purpose in providing wrapstuff. Finally they stopped reproduction and totally lost this ability.
I don't think that the Proto-Trolls ever reached this state. In my opinion their circle of life, birth and death never stopped. Reproduction might have tuned down the more they got Trolls and became immortal (or VERY long living) but didn't come to an end. After the crash they simply went on ... while the Elves had to rediscover "joining" and reproduction.

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Why is it that the Palace crash scene always shows the rebellious servants scattering once the humans invade the Palace, then disappearing?  We assume that they take to the ground while the High Ones flee across the surface of the WoTM.   But do the Elves and Trolls really never see each other again until Cutter discovers Old Maggoty?

The early Trolls might have kept some "Burrowers" instincts and soil and rock offered them a feeling of savety and home away from hume. And it was a good hiding place for sure.
Hiding from the hostile ancient Humans.
Hiding form the vengeful surviving Coneheads (the Trolls must have considered this).
So they went underground and thrived. Not much reason to show up on the surface and deals with either Humans or Elves. I see a good chance that the three species have met several times during the 10.000 years til EQ 1 nevertheless. Maybe whole tribes learned to know each other ... close encounters of individuals would have been likely.

It's said that Bearclaw discovered the Trolls for the first time. This can be true for the Wolfrider tribe. On the other hand - there was consent on the old Scroll that Wolfriders are forgetful. In the now of wolf thought and with only oral lore knowledge can get lost during the milennias.

btw: There's a prose story in the Antologies where a Troll was mentor and protector of a small group of young Elves... Trickster's Clan.

Okay, I've looked up his bio page on Elfquest.com ...

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This ancient being is the last surviving troll who traveled with the High Ones on their interstellar journeys before coming to the World of Two Moons. Originally an ape-like burrowing creature born on their distant homeworld, he morphed into immortal troll form through the magical influence of the High Ones’ Palace-ship.

Apparently he IS meant to be an original being from the Homeworld. Mrs. Pini has decided this way.

Rule 1: There are no inconsistencies.
Rule 2: If there are inconsitenccies see Rule 1.

I take the freedom to stick with a ... slightly different head canon.

Sorry I didn't get back to this earlier.  Trollhubby has been admitted to the hospital for the second time since the end of April.  Just got home after spending the last two days in his room.  I hope he will be home Monday or sooner.

The more I read back over the information posted here, the less favor I find toward the Firstcomer.  I'd expect more depth of character from one who led our first rebellion.  More like George Washington if he hung around with Indiana Jones.

As I said, I've read from the Original Quest through the first few chapter of Final Quest, and I really don't see the Trolls serving as much more than a species and culture that will never be equal to the High Ones or their descendents.

Whether the Firstcomer Troll is canon or not shouldn't have much effect upon the general universe of Elfquest.  His story could be true, or he might be imagining some of it.

In sending there is only truth, but he doesn't appear to be sending.  (To my knowledge, humans and Elves can send, but not Trolls and not Preservers.)

This doesn't necessarily mean dementia.  As humans, we tend to remember events the way we want to remember them, or the way our friends and family want to remember them.  I can verify this from talking to my sister about our childhood.

I once read about how research is conducted for the Guiness Book of World Records.  It described the difficulty in verifying the record-breaking age of an individual.

The family might produce a birth certificate or other document proving that James Johnson is 132 years old.  Further research might prove that Mr. Johnson is actually James Johnson Jr., 102 years old, and that the birth certificate belonged to his late father.

His relatives have submitted the claim, and have convinced Mr. Johnson himself that he is the elder and not the junior.

If we committed an act which we later regret, or if we didn't understand its consequences until later, we might re-write the script in our head.

Survivor, hours after a shipwreck:  "I found an officer from the cruise ship floating in the water.  I didn't know if he was dead or unconscious.  I took his life jacket and put it on."

Weeks later:  "I found a dead officer, and took his life jacket."

Years later:  "I had on a life jacket. I tried to save the officer, but it was too late."

Every family has "something we don't talk about", scandals and tragedies which further corrupt our elders' memory of events.

As nobody expects fanfiction to meet publishing standards, I've written the origins of the Fox Mountain Trolls based upon a group of Palace-dwellers with the following characteristics:

Physically similar to Trolls, but much smaller
Equal in intelligence to Elves, Humans and OQ Trolls
Male and female, but without mates or offspring, at least among the group in my story
Capable of forming friendships and good working relationships, such as musician and dancer
Wearing clothes and having a sense of modesty and dignity
Specialists who are happy with the actual work they do
Unhappy with the lack of freedom, merit and compensation

The Trolls who actually rebelled against the High Ones, who caused the crash, and who eventually formed kingdoms, are an example of the oppressed becoming the oppressor.  A real-life example would be the Americans who threw off the yoke of English monarchy and nobility, then built mansions for themselves and enslaved Africans to do the actual work.

Aside from looking for pretty stones, I believe the Trolls and their ancestors have a biological drive to burrow into the earth.

One is for defense. On a strange planet, seeing their masters slaughtered by its natives, the Groundlings took to the ground as a bird takes wing. Putting foliage, rocks and dirt between themselves and predators may have been how they survived on their home world.

The other is for insulation. Dogs dig in the garden for the same reason their wild ancestors dug into the ground and the snow. Perhaps the original Groundlings lived in dens and tunnels.