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truelight

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PostSubject: Cutter's Siblings?   Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:19 am

I feel like I am missing something here. The blood of ten cheifs novel states Bearclaw and Joyleaf had been lovemates since they were old enough to know what that was. That they were cubs together.
THEN the actual comics imply he is years if not centuries older then her. It also implies that at least he (if not her too) have recognized others in the past. In the issue where Skywise is born Joyleaf states to Bearclaw he is too old to remember what it was like when he last recognized someone. THEN she says when it happens to them she'd be sure it's his last.
LATER in Wolfrider! It again says this would be the last recognition for each. Right before Cutter is born there is a lovely panel talking about the faces of lifemates and cubs who had gone before him in the past.
Now obviously by the time Cutter is actually born any siblings he had earlier are dead otherwise they would be cheif or cheiftess instead.
SOOOOOOOOO Where are they? What happened to them? Is Bearclaw older the Joyleaf or the same age? Have they both recognized in the past?
AAAAH the mind boggles!
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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:26 pm

After so many years, so many issues, and so many who have had either played a hand in the art and/or the storyline of EQ, I gave up trying to make sense of the ElfQuest timeline or the lineage long ago.


I've even read where some things that were published aren't even taken as "canon" to the storyline, but I've always taken what Wendy has done by her own hand "as canon"  But lately even that has it's abundance of hic-ups.


To the incidents such as this, I take as a sense of freedom to the reader that their own imagination can come to its own conclusion, and there's nothing written in stone for someone else to say "You're wrong".
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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:33 pm

@Kindredsoul wrote:
After so many years, so many issues, and so many who have had either played a hand in the art and/or the storyline of EQ, I gave up trying to make sense of the ElfQuest timeline or the lineage long ago.


I've even read where some things that were published aren't even taken as "canon" to the storyline, but I've always taken what Wendy has done by her own hand "as canon"  But lately even that has it's abundance of hic-ups.


To the incidents such as this, I take as a sense of freedom to the reader that their own imagination can come to its own conclusion, and there's nothing written in stone for someone else to say "You're wrong".

Can we get a like button on up in here?  cheers 
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truelight

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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:38 pm

other then two issues of Wolfrider, one issue of Hidden Years and one story in Blood of Ten Cheifs is the topic ever touched on again?
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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:43 pm

I think it's more of a global involving those rules of "There are no inconsistencies" and if there are "There are no inconsistences" so in general at a certain point you give up going "Wait... didn't <source> say...?" and toss your hands up, roll with the conjecture, and start writing fanfic.

At least that's my two pesos, anynya....
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truelight

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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:11 pm

That would be a fun fanfic but I can't picture Bearclaw and Joyleaf with anyone but each other.
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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:03 pm

To the incidents such as this, I take as a sense of freedom to the reader that their own imagination can come to its own conclusion, and there's nothing written in stone for someone else to say "You're wrong". wrote:

I think so to.
I always thought they had more cubs before, not with each other, but others, but we may never get an answer to that.
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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:37 pm

I think truelight is right : it's highly emphasized that there WAS another recognition for Bearclaw. It's also interesting how the expression "SON of Bearclaw" comes SO often, about Cutter, hmmmm..? As if..

Well, there might VERY WELL have been another cub, a female one...
...one who ended BANNED from the Wolfriders.

This could explain MUCH.

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Leanan

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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:00 pm

Okay, this is totally random and just popped in my head right now:

What if...

Clearbrook's daughter was Bearclaw's daughter also?
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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:08 pm

That hypothesis was explored, in fan discussions, if I remember well.
Possible.

" Clearbrook is the eldest female Wolfrider, and as her name suggests, she’s calm, dignified and thoughtful, choosing her words carefully and fairly.  She grew up a close friend of the equally wise Joyleaf and now, as an experienced  elder, her quiet advice is rarely ignored by her tribemates.

Clearbrook’s serenity, however, has been hard-won. She lost a daughter and later her lifemate One-Eye .. "

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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:32 pm

I always thought that, if she didn't die in infancy, she might have been one of Rain's mates.

There's sort of an implication that Shale might be related to Rain- based on Rain's reaction to his death. Clearbrook is the only other grey-haired elf- and she sort of looks a lot like Skywise and Shale in the eyes and cheeks. Shale and Rain and Skywise and Pike all have the same poofy hair. And, with Rainsong and Clearbrook, they all have the rounded cheeks.. even though Rain has an angular face. And Rainsong is seen taking care of Skywise when he is young- so... it sort of seemed that might be the case. Wendy tends to draw characters who are related with similar physical characteristics.

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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:33 pm

Why would we think that Clearbrook had a baby with Bearclaw? What's the evidence?

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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:40 pm

Because they Recognized? Does there need to be another reason? I'm not saying it happened or didn't happen, we really can't know from the information available.

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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:01 pm

Part of the problem that came about early on for EQ fandom was the feeling (wrong or rightly) gleaned from the first issues of the comic was Recognition happened once and that was it. Wendy later answered questions posed by members of an old, local holt (Timberlake) that elves could Recognize again if a mate died, but it wouldn't happen soon or often.

The Wolfrider! storyline put that original assumption to rest. My take on it is Bearclaw -- but not Joyleaf -- Recognized before, but all his offspring from those Recognitions are dead.
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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:36 pm

I wonder why they didn't just keep it simple... Anyway I think that if Bearclaw had any other lifemates/recognized and cubs, then they were long dead before he recognized Joyleaf.

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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:27 am

Seems like a consensus to a degree, but it all got my mind back on something I recently read WP writing that has me all twisted up a little. Paraphrasing what I took away (dont feel like its worth trying to track down, Im not that bent over it), she essentially said that the whole story is as though it were recounted history in the future, that its all hearsay passed down from one storyteller to the next, and any discrepancies are both true and false, as memory isnt perfect.

Adding to that, Id even go farther and point out the Now of Wolf-thought would have a pronounced effect on remembered history, basically reducing the whole tail into a "Newhart" style dreamberry vision of whoever is recording it for us to read.... which fits really well into the theme, but to see it along with everything else it just seems too convenient, like "hush, forget it, its meaningless and you should just get over it" in a way.... ah well.

Anyway, that said, while there are a few exceptions (strongbow), it seems as though there are a LOT of elflings that have come and gone that are not recalled. On the matter or recognition, on average each elf would have to have at least one offspring just to maintain population, and thats not counting massacres, bad "years" tribe splits, and so on, which would mean that, on average, each elf would have had to recognized twice in their lifetimes (some more, some less, but once for their own replacement and once for another's replacement, as I see the math), other wise if two can only make one, a dozen starting a tribe would have 6 offspring, who would in turn have 3, who would have 1 (who could technically recognize the leftover of the three) which results in another 1 and finally the final 2 '1s' would have the last generation, no more pairings left after roughly 5 generations... much less than 10 chiefs...

Anyway, Bearclaw's previous offspring might not be remembered from such a long time back in a wolf's eye, and werent chiefs or chieftesses simply because Bearclaw didnt die and the tribe didnt split (or did it? The rogue band of wolfriders they NEVER speak of! Worse than Two Spear's branch!), therefore they are never mentioned.

I dont know, if one of the other tribe is an elder sibling of Cutter, it may be something similar to the way Suntop and Ember knew from the get go that Ember would be Chieftess... just not drawn to it? There was quite the lull in Wolfrider history before Cutter was born if the biggest excitement since Mantricker was Bearclaw sitting in a dreamberry patch for a month... then over a thousand years later (if I recall right), Madcoil was the biggest historical event...

Anyway, I dont know if Im making any sense this time a night, but I guess its an odd thing for me: its left up to interpretation by the fans, we can make up any kind of story we want but itll never be 'canon', and even 'canon' is subject to interpretation and is discardable as is convenient... all questions and no solid answers... a perfect playground for the writer-child in me, but as an answer-seeker it amounts to frustration, especially since more info can feed my inner writer-child and produce a larger world to play in.

So did Cutter have siblings? Definately could have, and possibly could still as far as I know since technically, as each child becomes the son or daughter of the tribe, direct geneological ties can break down over time (in the now of wolf thought), and such a meaning becomes lost when fresh decendancy arises.

Yes? No? The only one that could say for sure isnt one Id ask at this point as I get the feeling Id get an indeterminate answer. ( yeesh, feel like deleting the post, cant tell if this stuff is going to sound bad or something, dont intend to, but its late and Im tired.)

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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:27 am

@TrollHammer wrote:

Anyway, that said, while there are a few exceptions (strongbow), it seems as though there are a LOT of elflings that have come and gone that are not recalled.  On the matter or recognition, on average each elf would have to have at least one offspring just to maintain population, and thats not counting massacres, bad "years" tribe splits, and so on, which would mean that, on average, each elf would have had to recognized twice in their lifetimes (some more, some less, but once for their own replacement and once for another's replacement, as I see the math), other wise if two can only make one, a dozen starting a tribe would have 6 offspring, who would in turn have 3, who would have 1 (who could technically recognize the leftover of the three) which results in another 1 and finally the final 2 '1s' would have the last generation, no more pairings left after roughly 5 generations... much less than 10 chiefs...
Not necessarily, as long as there are individuals who have a lot of kids... Throughout Elf's history, Timmorn had a lot of cubs, Rahnee had a lot of cubs, Freefoot had quite a few children, Kahvi might have had more children than that we know of - not to mention Woodlock/Rainsong, Strongbow/Moonshade and Preypacer who all had 3 cubs.

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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:23 pm

It would take at least TWO offsprings per elf (at average) to maintain population.


Even in elfkind Bearclaw two Joyleaf are needed to make one  Cutter Smile cub ^^ ... and there are two to be replaced in the long run. ^^


Cutter's siblings ... making up stories ... let's say Redlance is a descendant of Goodtree via Bearclaw. The (great)grandson of Bearclaw's first cub! ^^

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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:33 pm

Yeah I may have misread Trollhammer's post silent

(By the way, I actually think Redlance is Goodtree's descendant via her daughter Speedwell Razz)

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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:54 pm

**Love Spark for me-teach him to make trees grow....** <--- Because of that? I think that's as good a theory as any, so why not?

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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:38 am

@Zinegirl wrote:
I wonder why they didn't just keep it simple... Anyway I think that if Bearclaw had any other lifemates/recognized and cubs, then they were long dead before he recognized Joyleaf.
That is the impression I got as well. But i am still curious if there is an untold story. How many cubs/lifemates/lovemates were before Cutter and Joyleaf. What happened to them? How different would the story have been if Bearclaw's eldest cub and not his youngest had lived to become chief?
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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:11 am

Elfin reproduction makes no sense at all, but if we take even parts of TBOTC seriously there seem to have been booms and busts. Perhaps Bearclaw's other kids were born during boom years and died in the meantime.
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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:55 pm

@kathleen3.0 wrote:
Elfin reproduction makes no sense at all, but if we take even parts of TBOTC seriously there seem to have been booms and busts. Perhaps Bearclaw's other kids were born during boom years and died in the meantime.  
Yeah it could be that an event such as Madcoil or a plague happened that killed off half the tribe. For beings that are near-immortal, the tribe wasn't that big after all - even before Madcoil.

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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:41 pm

I think that's probably right. There were implied generations of elves that we didn't see. Bearclaw's lived a long time. If he had other mates besides Joyleaf, as the text suggests, they weren't around in Cutter... or even Strongbow's... day and age. Whoever he mated with before had been dead a long time. And so, probably, had any offspring.

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PostSubject: Re: Cutter's Siblings?   Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:44 pm

Oh my gosh- look at that!

Bearclaw Joyleaf Blackfell Drinking

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