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 Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0

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jabberwookie
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Embala

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PostSubject: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptySun Sep 06, 2015 11:34 pm

Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 2.0 ... this was Winnowill's thread, opened by Multimedea, on the original Scroll of Colors. Follow old discussions and see fanart from earlier times.


Visit [url=elfquest.com/characters/winnowill]Winnowill's bio page[/url] on Elfquest.com.

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyMon Sep 07, 2015 1:49 am

Thanks for listing these, Embala! That's quite a feat Very Happy

Are we continuing the convo?
Because man o man am I sick of Winnowill.
Will she change ? Besides just becoming more evil? I doubt it, but I really hope so.

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyWed Oct 07, 2015 2:03 pm

'Character Bio':

Winnowill (f)  Winnie Evil  Winnowill

Deceased – immortal
Mother of Two-Edge
Lovemate of Voll, Smelt, Rayek and Grohmul Djun


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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyMon Apr 10, 2017 10:43 pm

Ergh, I just hope her soul gets torn apart. She doesn't want to be healed or redeemed. I don't think she'd get much out of being healed. Heck she might just break all over again if she's allowed to feel guilty over what she's done.

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyTue Apr 11, 2017 9:20 am

I don't think making her feel guilty would be healing her.


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Embala

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyTue Apr 11, 2017 6:48 pm

But she'll probably feel guilty once she's healed - and realizes how much harm she had caused!
Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 _12_wi11#12 found

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyTue Apr 11, 2017 7:01 pm

The way I see it, an important part of healing her would be to tell her that Yes! What you did was wrong! But it's a thing of the past. It's over.

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyTue Apr 11, 2017 7:39 pm

Embala wrote:
But she'll probably feel guilty once she's healed - and realzes how much harm she had caused!
That's what I was thinking. I'd assume feeling guilt is a natural part of the process.

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Evil Evie

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyTue Apr 11, 2017 8:11 pm

As a Christian I believe that someday I'll stand before the throne of God. More or less, (I'm just sorta brushing the surface for a point) as I stand their I will be made to feel the remorse for all the things I have done wrong. Afterwards all tears are wiped away.

this is why I think Winnowill's healing could be accomplished, especially considering the healing powers of the palace. I don't think it would have worked if Leetah alone had tried to heal her though.

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Miss Gillespie

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyWed Apr 12, 2017 7:08 am

Do you think Winnowill's "evil-ness" is due to illness or due to her conscious choices?

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Evil Evie

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyWed Apr 12, 2017 3:04 pm

Her conscious choices. She causes little accidents to keep herself sane much like someone who has a drink to calm their nerves. She tried to quit and then ran into smelt and finally turned her powers on him. It says that smelt remembered his mission, so weather winnowill at first might have trying to protect herself or if she intended him harm from the Start I don't know. Either way I think she broke here and succumbed to her powers after that, (alcoholism). I still think she had some choice but didn't want to see it. The illness kind of really took over here and she grew to like her new self except when she is made to see what she truly is. Not an easy question or answer.

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyFri May 18, 2018 12:51 pm

I would love to read about Winnowill's childhood, teenage years and her adult life before turning 'mad' and corrupted. Maybe with hints in her personality to become the person she will later be.

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyThu Jun 14, 2018 4:29 am

I've always thought Winnowill was an interesting bad guy, purely because she does have (if very rare) moments of clarity and compassion to clash with what she is the rest of the time. I also thought it was interesting that not only did she not seem to want to be healed, but she was actually afraid of it. It suggests a lot more is going on beyond the surface of the character that we can't see.

I like that, plot wise, they almost have to find a way to heal her, or accept the risk that she will always remain a problem, since as far as we know, you can't destroy an elf's spirit. It brings up some interesting moral questions. How do you forgive the unforgivable? How do you go about healing that which doesn't want to be healed?

I also feel like maybe conscious choice and that kind of 'soul sickness' can go hand in hand and aren't always separate from the other. If I were to throw in some psychology here, I'd almost say that maybe she's projecting, and all her hatred and contempt for the rest of the world is hatred for herself. You can't love another if you can't love yourself, after all. I think that's part of why she was so afraid when they tried to heal her on the Blue Mountain. There was that moment of vulnerability there, and it made her face the truth of herself. She really didn't like that truth.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

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Embala

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyThu Jun 14, 2018 8:14 pm

Interesting analysis, jabberwookie! Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 _02_wi11#02 found

And you've pointed out the time when Winnowill was most interesting. BEFORE she turned into a cardboard villian.

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyFri Jun 15, 2018 11:38 am

I love this analysis of yours, jabberwookie! Many 'aha-moments'. It makes so much sense that she's projecting!

I think she is one of the most interesting villains out there. She has a long, hurtful, ill-fated past. Fighted many battles. Became 'incurable' yet tried so desperately to 'win her games' no matter what.

Rayek didn't give up on her though. The only one left who wants her to be cured and convince her hat she IS loveable. No matter what she did. No matter what she became because of hatred. However knowing Rayek's character I wonder if he loves her because of herself or her power...his personality is also very special. You gotta love or hate him. Like Winnowill.

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyFri Jun 15, 2018 10:36 pm

Hah! Rayek is certainly something! I think he at least thinks he loves her, but as for really, truly loving her, I'm not sure. He's got a pretty rocky past himself, and sometimes I wonder if he's not trying to somehow redeem himself through somehow redeeming her.

He's probably one of the only ones who can and is willing to contain her, so the point is probably moot anyway, but he's got some serious control issues, that one, and I never really thought it was good for her healing process. I think sometimes that's the real reason he hated Cutter and his lot for a long while. They were one of the only things in his life he couldn't control-- they were wild and didn't play by the rules, and they busted up his illusion that he was ever in control at all (multiple times, hah).

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Prayer

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptySat Jun 16, 2018 3:13 pm

That's some great insight into Rayek's edgy personality. Thank you for the analysis, Jabberwookie.

It's true but also think he matured very much throughout the series. I assume he's not only thinking he is loving Winnowill but - in his way - genuinely loving her. He endures much pain to contain her. Yet he didn't become all weak and whiney because of it. I'm glad about that... because if so, he wouldn't RAYEK anymore, would he? Very Happy

Guess Winnowill will never love him back. Their personalities don't fit well in my opinion. I liked the old Winnowill/Voll love couple. When Winnowill was still not badass-super-villain-crazy and had sweet flowers in her hair in Blue Mountain...
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Arill3.0

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyThu Jul 09, 2020 12:44 am

AIGHT TIME TO ARTICULATE 14 YEARS OF COMPLICATED EMOTIONS

Trigger warnings for discussions of child abuse and mental health.

So. As a teenager I was obsessed with Winnowill. Like. Obsessed. Still am, to some extent. Those present in the firestorm of my earliest obsession are likely having war flashbacks right now. I adored her, lavished an unprecedented amount of attention on her, and wrote excruciatingly out of character redemption AUs for her.

But.

I'm a survivor of childhood abuse. I had a parent attempt to destroy my personhood from my earliest days, and I'm still dealing with the fallout over twenty years after the abuse ended. I should hate Winnowill. I absolutely understand people who do.

Her behavior is indefensible. Even before she really went of the rails (in-universe and as a character in general), even before Rogue's Quest, her actions within Blue Mountain are indefensible; to paraphrase Granny Weatherwax, true evil starts when you treat people like things.Winnowill treats sentient people as things, quite literally. She uses elves as doors and keeps human beings as pets. She destroyed her son in virtually every way one can destroy a person. She seeks to control the choices and actions of everyone around her. Oh and genocide. Cannot disregard that.

For the longest time I've been grappling with why I still enjoy Winnowill. Like, people are allowed to enjoy villains of course, it's fiction after all, but I usually despise characters who abuse children. But I don't in this instance. And I think that's because I recognize some of my own mental health struggles in Winnowill. Her fear and self-loathing early on in her madness ring true to me, as is her desire to go to ground when confronted with things that she would rather avoid. Her knee-jerk urge to lash out at those she thinks have wronged her is also, ah, perhaps a little too familiar. Winnowill is basically my worst mental health days jacked up to 100.

I like to use Winnowill as a means of exploring my own fears regarding my mental health and continuing the cycle of abuse. That I chose to explore this through her point of view rather than Two Edge's confuses me still. Typically I'm not at all interested in the reasoning of an abuser...but I suppose since I fear become an abuser myself this fits?

Anyway Winnowill is a monster and I love her.
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Arill3.0

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyThu Jul 09, 2020 1:42 am

ALSO BECAUSE I'M ALWAYS VOLL/WINNOWILL TRASH

I like the implication that it was basically Voll who kept Winnowill from leaping off that last edge into total darkness. She initially began subverting life within Blue Mountain in order to protect him (and then kept doing it under the guise of love but mostly because she liked the control), left to find the Palace for Voll specifically, and went completely off the deep end when he died. She was half dead from her confrontation with Leetah and kept trying to send to him when he flew off...and he ignored her.

Voll let Winnowill down, I think. I'm not saying him being a neglectful boyfriend is what turned her to The Dark Side, but him ignoring her concerns about what she saw in the Egg and apparently not being aware of what being locked inside a stagnate mountain was doing to her did have a hand in things. I think they were essentially each other's sole emotional support in their lives together; as the leaders of their tribe they had a sort of emotional remove from the rest of their people and shared the burden of leadership together. When Voll started shutting her out he eliminated himself as a source of emotional support for her. I think a small part of Winnowill blamed him for that later on, even if she never acknowledged it to herself.

Like, even when he's been dead for three years Voll is very present in Winnowill's thoughts during SaBM. His death has allowed her to assume command and to try and fulfill her original vision for the Gliders but...we see that she's thinking of him constantly, even when bringing her plan together. Without him to keep "safe" she really has nothing that she really cares about anymore; the Gliders are fuel, a means to an end. The one person she cares about besides herself is gone and she's...not lost, if anything she is very, very present and driven, but she's not anchored anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyThu Jul 09, 2020 11:52 pm

Unrelated note: I kind of love the fact that Winnowill does her deep motivation monologues to small children. She just lays things out there for Suntop and later Windkin with an honesty she utterly lacks with adults.

Likely this is because she knows that they are very small and can't do a thing about any of what she's telling them, but I found it very interesting nonetheless. She drops certain pretenses with small children, levels with them like they can even understand what she's going on about. I laugh nervously every time Winnowill take Suntop to her lair and is like "And this is where I bring my humans to die. Which your family is going to do, eventually."
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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptySun Feb 07, 2021 4:00 pm

Well, have some extra time on my hands, figured Id explore something equestrian, bit there are no horses around, so elfqueatian will habe to do.

Todays victi... I mean subject: Ol' Winnieface.

I've read through the above and the official profile. I dont see anything I dont generally agree with, and analysis of her character has been thorough and in depth here and elsewhere, so other than a few things I dont know about yet as I write this in rough draft mode, Im not going into that aspect, but rather what her character says about us, or at least explore things a bit and see where it goes.

Removing the personally identifiable information from Winnie's character generates a profile that could describe several historical figures, and Ill leave specific finger pointing to the reader, but one aspect to look at as a mirror to reflect on: if Winnie had been human, specifically an historical real world villain, would we consider redemption as even possible or acceptible? As even a cardboard cutout Winnie type villain, if it werent for the ability of her spirit to interact with the story after her death, would there be any consideration for allowance for therapy and bringing back to the family, as it were?

But that further brings up the point: what, exactly, is there to redeem? Is a person (character) the same "who they are" throughout all time? Is a child, a teen, a young adult, and an elder, all the same person but snapshots at different times of their lives, actually the same?  I dont feel that the world we love in has been the same throughout my life, and I dont see certain aspects of who I am to be unchanging either... But who I am today is formed from the history of thoughts, decisions, and events that I have experienced, so the question becomes, if I could change something in my past I dislike about myself, redeem some part of me I find lacking, am I then the same person afterwards, just without that part I didnt want, or am I something else?

As far as I can tell, Winnie's "sickness" is her desire to control, manipulate, and forge reality into what she believes it should be, and those things that are in the way or can be used to attain that goal are simply expendable resources to be used as necessary or dealt with to get out of the way of her progress. She's not much different from an unruly child that has gotten away with begging and then lashes out when anything denies her what she wants. Viruca Salt (sp?) of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory comes to mind.

But unlike a child who is still growing and developing, Winnowil is a full grown adult with superpowers and very little she hasnt been able to manipulate to get her way, very little telling her "No". Who she is now, as an accumulation of decisions, actions, and events ofer the course of some 15000 years or so is mostly the result of murder, manipulation, torture, unfulfilled desires, failure... The list goes on, and theres very little left when you take the "bad" away. What is left? If she or another healer swept away the "her" that is attached to the sickness, what would be left to consider "salvaged"? Some love that cant be returned by a long dead crush? Some well wishes for her kin? These are a start, but wouldnt make a whole person that wouldnt potentially return to the same old things that resulted in her becoming who she is now, especially if her "healing" retained the memories of doing what she had for most of her lifetime, IMHO.

From the perspective of the extant elves, though, we have another perspective to explore. "What is redeemable" aside, the high ones essentially have a sort of "reality bomb" that has actually already gone off, but has been stuffed in a box to deal with later, but the box and thr blast have minds of their own, and the box is vulnerable to destruction, AND isnt really being treated with any care... So... We could look at is as Batman carrying an unstoppable, city destroying bomb out to safety, potentially sacrificing himself in the process, except that there is no "to safety" to get to and if Batman (rayak) ends up dieing in the process it saves no one.

Its been explored in depth in the comic and in forum, but the elves really have a conundrum: wait foe the bomb to defuse itself, defuse the bomb by attempting to unmake it (which might release it with a fury much larger than it would have before, because now Winnie's even madder for the attempt at a spirit-kill), remake it into something it isnt (as discussed above, essentially giving her a lobotomy and hoping for the best), or locking Rayak up for all time to protect the box she's in... But instead of anything the group just lets the bomb and the box its in wander around aimlessly on a planet hell-bent to destroy them. I dont know the best course of action, but I have to wondee if, somehow, the best course of action might also be the riskiest: take her to Starhome and hope the home-ness will be a balm on her.

That or calculate how strong of a black hole would be needed to keep a spirit in. A normal small one only keeps light in, and speed of spirit is much higher than that, according to what speeds the Palace can reach, but of course if the ship can time travel, is the speed its traveling even relevant? Still, the concept of throwing Rayak/Winnie into a black hole makes me chuckle in a way on a whole range of levels.
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Miss Gillespie

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyTue Feb 23, 2021 11:56 pm

I don't think she was planned as this ultimate bad guy with the conception of OQ, that's something that just happened way later.

In that split scene we get from Blue Mountain, when Suntop is sending out the story of the High Ones, Aroree and Tyldak both look normal (as juxtaposed to fearful and frightened). There are quotes on how Two-Edge is more scary than his mother or how the elves would rathe deal with her than with her son.

While Winnie wasn't happy about the Wolfriders, she certainly didn't care about Dewshine carrying Tyldak's child and yet still leaving Blue Mountain. Winnie wasn't characterised as evil but misguided and in need of healing.

From Siege onwards, she was beyond repair

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptySun Feb 28, 2021 12:43 pm

“ But instead of anything the group just lets the bomb and the box its in wander around aimlessly on a planet hell-bent to destroy them. I dont know the best course of action, but I have to wondee if, somehow, the best course of action might also be the riskiest: take her to Starhome and hope the home-ness will be a balm on her.”

Didn’t Timmain essentially offer to do this, and Rayek turned her down?

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PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptySun Feb 28, 2021 7:48 pm

Lunakat wrote:
“ But instead of anything the group just lets the bomb and the box its in wander around aimlessly on a planet hell-bent to destroy them. I dont know the best course of action, but I have to wondee if, somehow, the best course of action might also be the riskiest: take her to Starhome and hope the home-ness will be a balm on her.”

Didn’t Timmain essentially offer to do this, and Rayek turned her down?

*sheepishly* I know it's not a popular opinion, but Rayak and Winnie never seemed to make very mature decisions, or act maturely in general. Even Rayak's "self sacrifice" can be looked at partially as a selfish way to keep Winnie as his own forever.

Of course, Timmain seems to have lost maturity in her old age... she started out risking herself to save her kin, but over the years lost out to 'lets dabble with other's fate by taking over their chance to be themselves, just to play around and find out what happens..." Not the best character trait to hold responsible as needing to step in as 'mom' and say "no, this is best for you and everyone else... You're going to Yellowstone with the rest of us even though you'd rather stay home and play with legos"

(I know I wasn't invested in that story as much as the rest of it, but I still don't see how Timmain's soul-splitting into Cutter bennifits the group or what it does at all... other than to provide a possible plot device for 'Tammin' to rebel later and split actual from Timmain with some kind of star-home-ending consequences or something....)
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Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 EmptyMon Mar 01, 2021 9:05 pm

" Even Rayak's "self sacrifice" can be looked at partially as a selfish way to keep Winnie as his own forever. "

Oh yes, indeed! Timmain said: "Let go!",Rayek: "No I can`t, I`d rather die...!" (or something like that) Timmain stopped healing/taking her away from him because she feared, that Rayeks heart would stop beating. So sad, he is selfish out of the fear of being left alone (the old left alone child theme).

heh! Timmain: "no, this is best for you and everyone else... You're going to Yellowstone with the rest of us even though you'd rather stay home and play with legos"
Rayek: "BWAAAAAAHAHAAAA! WANNAOLAYWITHLEGOS!" throws with lego bricks around while whining, crying and yelling.



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Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0   Winno-wicked, er, Winnowill 3.0 Empty

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