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 Final Quest # 13

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kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:32 pm

@Shadowpath wrote:
Wouldn't that imply the elves were an invading force, the group that is in control and oppressive as all hell?

Wait. But what if they are?

They don't even have to realize it. Like, we only have Timmain's word that they were peaceful explorers on a mission to seek out new life, etc.

What if the firstcomers were actually here to take over?

Think about?

Their world dies, they set off in some ships. They decide to retain their physical form, they have the powers to telekinetically terraform any world they land on, who's to say they didn't intend to do just that?

Of course, it helps if they find a world with a similar composition and atmosphere to the home world, and not to only do they find it, it's inhabited by a race of beings that already worship creatures with powers that are similar to theirs, a ready made servant class!

They're getting ready to land, but unfortunately for them, their current slave/servant race overheard them, and one brave soul decided to take action, to save these new people from being subjugated(not entirely unselfishly, as they also are hoping to be allowed to settle in the new world, as equals). Within moments, they take a wrong turn, and find themselves millennia away from their goal, and barred from their ship. Not only that, some unknown component of this world prevents them from retaining full use of their powers.

Haken, of course, decides that, even with their current detriments, they might still be able to achieve their goals fairly quickly. Timmain, being slightly wiser, decides on a long term strategy of adaptation, and conquest. First, they adapt to this world, including adapting their abilities. Secondly, they set themselves up as the benevolent ancestors of their future descendants(meaning they'll make not just one servant race, but two). Thirdly, once their powers, and their children's powers have successfully reached the point of full adaptation, they make their move, return to the palace in order to amplify their power, and begin the terraformation and colonization process.

But. She didn't quite think this through. And the wolf blood she introduced into the species, rather than thinning to the point of indectability, and only providing an immunity to the magic suppressing qualities of the abode, has created a new type of being, mortal, but mentally strong and protected. She must use all her powers of persuasion, amplified by the palace, against them. Beginning with their leader...
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:36 pm

@kathleen3.0 wrote:
Snip

I'm trying to ignore my High Ones who are all nodding their heads enthusiastically at the idea behind your post.

Problem is they're still in minority. Yes, they could turn the palace into a massive weapon that could wipe out the abode humans an masse...
Actually never-mind me, i'm on board with that idea. Yes.

My truly massive dislike for the humans aside, there's still a lot that could go wrong.
Someone is bound to be sentimental and want to stop it all because, somehow the humans who excel in torture and murder don't really deserve to be the victims of a Curb-Stomp Battle.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:05 pm

Now that's an interesting and cool twist I'd like to see! I mean... these guys were imortal. What is an millennium to them?

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:54 pm

I liked this issue.  The interactions between the characters rang true, and the action was interesting.

A few questions/observations:

Cutter and Timmain may share a soul, but this issue has made it clear that they actually are NOT the same person.  Timmain has lost contact with Cutter's soul and can no longer follow his journey. Cutter finds comfort in his wolf-friend's love, reminding us that there is nurture as well as nature that goes into making a personality. Timmain is not the son of Joyleaf and Bearclaw, has never been chief of the Wolfriders, has never had a wolf friend.  Cutter is still himself, now and forever.  He has broken off from Timmain; now let him stay broken off. Tam Independence Day!

I loved what Mender did for Picknose and Oddbit, though I did wonder why Trinket seems to remain a spoiled teenager (who dresses like a little girl), when Ember and Sunstream, her former playmates, are both in their 40s or 50s now.

If what Sunstream is telling Korafay is true for all elves, then it explains why so few elves have responded to the Call of the Palace.  They aren't done with the world yet.  But in that case, what exactly is the purpose of the Call to the Palace?  And what are the Go-Backs going to to now that they're there, if they haven't finished hunting and fighting yet? What happens to a living Go-Back who stays in the Palace? He or she is going to grow "soft." I can't see them wanting that!

Why don't the humans have any idea the Wavedancers live in that area? They used to! I thought the reason the fleet headed in that direction was that it was the last-known place where elves were known to live. But instead of sending out divers to look for undersea elves, they attack the humans on shore.

And then when Rayek pre-empts the massacre, they break off the fight with Rayek after a while and just leave with the rest of their ships, instead of continuing to try to kill him or Reef. They only lost one ship! Why give up so easily?

I really felt for Strongbow and loved how Nightfall comforted him. Wolfrider memory seems to work kind of like dog memory (and presumably wolf memory) -- things are lost to their conscious recall until a similar event brings back a reminder.  Just the way dogs forget there's such a thing as a veterinarian until you take them back there. Thus, none of the Wolfriders but Cutter could remember Little Patch-- but now that a conflict between Timmain and Cutter has arisen, both Nightfall and Strongbow remember the earlier conflict between Timmain and Strongbow.  I thought that made sense.

I didn't have any issue with Angrif's navy still wanting to carry out his mission even after his death. I've seen that loyalty in soldiers before-- and these are soldiers, not civilians. Also, they've been raised to hate and fear elves, and now they'e got eye-witness reasons to continue that hatred and fear. It made sense to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:09 am

Got my copy recently. While KR Wordgazer is right in saying Cutter and Timmain aren't the same person, I still feel as though Wendy has destroyed Cutter and somehow invalidated everything he's done by giving him the worst case of identity crisis I've ever seen in fiction. I guess I could be taking it too personally; I've gone to dark places in my mind thanks to my depression and anxiety. It's familiar territory. I'm not really scared of it anymore. But it has become unfamiliar to Cutter, and he can't cope. I hope Filcher won't die; that would break Cutter even more.

Can he find healing after this? Realize he is who he is? Remember the meaning of Tam?

And the split between Strongbow and Moonshade continues to make me think that somehow the wolf-blooded elves who choose to go HAVE to give up their wolf blood because it binds them to Abode somehow, and the Wolfriders will eventually go extinct. Say what you will about the old conservative, but Strongbow loved Moonshade deeply and truly. Now he has to find a new way within the Way without her, like she's finding another way without him. The bigger truth destroying the smaller.

I'm also disappointed by how Daboi seems to have been just randomly thrown in there, and how little Reef did with that new body. He could have gone on a real rampage, done some damage. But his continued pain was done right, as was Sunstream basically telling Korafay "Don't choose the Palace if you're coming from a place of pain, fear, and confusion. Love the world and everything it can offer, even if it hurts, and make the choice when your head is clear."

I think a lot of Korafay's distress came from Reef's. He's her friend, and she loves him; maybe she was thinking if she went to live in the Palace, she could convince Reef to come and keep him safe, and help him find more healing.

Still, I feel as though this is being done far too swiftly because there's no time to properly tell the story. Warp Graphics must be under one hell of a deadline despite releasing a comic only every two months or so. I'm not happy, but I'm still here to the end. One way or another, I'm going to see the last chapter. And even if the ending sucks, at least I'll be there to read it.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:43 am

@Multi-Facets wrote:
 I hope Filcher won't die; that would break Cutter even more.

I half expect to find out Filcher is Timmorn.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:51 pm

Wordgazer, my impression is that Trinket is treated like a child still. She has indeed been spoiled rotten as Picknose intended and it shows. Whereas Ember and Suntop have been raised to be actual adults with expectations and responsibilities.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:29 pm

Manga-- I think you're right.

Multi-Facets, I think Reef's personality is essentially non-violent. He will want to use his new form to protect, not to attack. That's the way I see him, anyway, as he's been portrayed up to now.

Stargazer, if Wendy Pini sees Timmain as representing Cutter's higher self and all, then it would make sense to her to take this plot turn, and would tend to immunize her against any critical protests about how it's actually detrimental to the story. To her, this IS the story. I think it's impossible to keep our art from reflecting our beliefs, but this isn't the first time I've thought a writer put their beliefs too blatantly into a story. To Wendy Pini, though, those who dislike it are likely to be seen as "unenlightened."

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:12 am

Things I liked:

- The first page. I thought it was well drawn, and colored beautifully. The second page is also well done.
- I did like the scene with Ember holding the wolf pup (reminds me of Choplicker)
- Also loved seeing Nightfall and Redlance... though, it's no secret, I had (have?!) a crush on Nightfall, and this side shot of her talking to Ember looks more like Adri than it does Nightfall
- Clearbrook is dead on, as is Treestump
- I loved the Cutter B&W type images of his sickness
- Loved the interaction with Picknose and his family; well done, and felt like classic stories
- The scene on the ship was very well done

Things I disliked:
- While I loved page 1 and page 2, page 3 plummets for me. Not just because they're the Wavedancers, which I admittedly do not care for - but I also think the art takes a dive (no pun intended) especially in the first panel of page 3.
- I can't stand Reef. Especially in his monster form. Like, I _really_ hate it.
- I can't stand Windkin and Snakeskin's hair. It looks like noodles rather than hair.

- I can't stand Timmain. And I dislike her story. Even with Skywise.

- Why does Leetah trust Dre-Ahn? He's said nothing. Done nothing. He's a cardboard. I do not understand the appeal of this character. He's done nothing. Nothing.

Didn't Love Or Hate:
- I wish we would have gotten a scene similar to Leetah first healing Redlance when the Snakeskin heals Venka - because she was shot by a bullet. Her skin was shredded. It seemed like big deal, but the healing was done pretty quickly and not very dramatically. We did get that panel of her face in anguish, though, and that's the saving grace.

- This one SHOULD go under dislike; but I dislike (borderline hate) how easily Winnowill's will was "sapped" by Windkin's little speech. Winnowill. The Elf who - perhaps has the strongest will - ever, short of Rayek (who - is it will or stubbornness with him?). I would have liked that stretched out more, with Winnowill fighting to get control, and Windkin, perhaps, or even Rayek, seizing control of himself again. I just thought this was "handled" too quickly. (One of my main problems with Final Quest is everything's settled so quickly and moves so quickly, there's no development). This was a golden chance to reflect on Winnowill who has been absent for long and was a MAJOR character; and a chance to reflect on Rayek and his choice to "imprison" Winnowill.

- Goes back to Windkin's hair; but the pannel where Rayek sends "Enough! Time to sleep again!" Windkin's hair looks horrid. Absolutely horrid. So weird. Does he have dreads? Because that's what it looks like.

- Strongbow looks like a washed up version of Jack Sparrow/Johnny Depp in that first panel with him, and doesn't really look like Strongbow. I get it; he's suffering because of his mate... but the last panel of the page where he hugs Nightfall, he looks like himself again

- Is than Suntop's, or whatever his name is these days, daughter sitting on that stone? Some reference would have been nice. (And what's that sky flower thing? This entire segment seems just thrown in there to make the quota of pages, because it does not, to me, flow with the story.

OVER ALL FEELING:
This was a "fine" issue - not bad, not good. My same complaint that's been with this Final Quest remains. It jumps around too much.

Example: Two pages of Venka shot; then go to the Sea Elves (where they go for healng), and focus on the Sea Elves for a page, then over to Rayek blasting humans, then back to them getting Venka healed, then Reef scaring humans, then back to Rayek blasting humans, then Windkin (flying admist the bullets) to talk to Rayek, quickly Reef leaves when Rayek arrives (due to Winnowill), then over to the holt with Ember, Nightfall and company with some nice dialogue for a page, then the next page is Skywise and Timmain, then the next three pages is Cutter's sickness and then the wolves arrive; then it's to the trolls with Skywise and company, then out of the blue Suntop's daughter (I am guessing?), then one panel of Rayek and company; then three pages of the humans on the ship.

That is a LOT of bouncing around.

I personally think, for development's sake, it'd be better spaced out, focusing on one or two "stories" and split them so that it doesn't feel like I am watching a tennis match while reading this, and there can be a sense of flowing and development. As it is, I just feel like it's BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! And not enough development, which ElfQuest was (to me) known for.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:27 pm

@Outlier wrote:
@Multi-Facets wrote:
 I hope Filcher won't die; that would break Cutter even more.

I half expect to find out Filcher is Timmorn.
I wouldn't be surprised. The 'what does he (Timmorn) know'-line makes me think Timmorn is alive.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:55 am

@Miss Gillespie wrote:
all Reef did was run at them. Not very threatening.

and

@KR Wordgazer wrote:
Multi-Facets, I think Reef's personality is essentially non-violent.  He will want to use his new form to protect, not to attack.  That's the way I see him, anyway, as he's been portrayed up to now.

Will all due respect, I disagree... I don't think Reef (in his "guardian" form) is that armless... Look at page 7, when Rayek and Windkin are returning to the grotto. At the left side of the entrance are two human bodies, tinted in red. I think those are the bodies of the two humans running for shelter, and I have the feeling they have been killed by Reef...
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:28 am

Wow Arthis I had not noticed that until now!

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:35 pm

Good eye, Arthis! Like

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:49 pm

Oh no... Daboi! I really hope he's alright, or at least as alright as possible. Can't help but thinking that when he said he wanted to heal in his own way he didn't just mean as a surgeon, but also that he wanted to help healing the relationship between elf and human.

Love how Korafay is the person Reef turns to when he's feeling unsafe. And that she was clearly grieving her human friend.

Windkin tricking Winnie. Bet ya didn't see that coming, black snake!

Finally: Dre-Ahn, lol! Asleep on his pony one moment, bursting into the troll tunnels the next.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:24 am

@Arthis wrote:
@Miss Gillespie wrote:
all Reef did was run at them. Not very threatening.

and

@KR Wordgazer wrote:
Multi-Facets, I think Reef's personality is essentially non-violent.  He will want to use his new form to protect, not to attack.  That's the way I see him, anyway, as he's been portrayed up to now.

Will all due respect, I disagree... I don't think Reef (in his "guardian" form) is that armless... Look at page 7, when Rayek and Windkin are returning to the grotto. At the left side of the entrance are two human bodies, tinted in red. I think those are the bodies of the two humans running for shelter, and I have the feeling they have been killed by Reef...

Good to see you here, Arthis mon ami!

Hmm. I hadn't noticed that, but if Reef did kill them I'm surprised. He used to be a healer, and as such would be opposed to killing. Has his long, troubled past completely wiped out that side of himself?

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:35 am

@KR Wordgazer wrote:
I hadn't noticed that, but if Reef did kill them I'm surprised.  He used to be a healer, and as such would be opposed to killing.

You sure about that? I don't think Mender is *that* much of an anomaly.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:46 am

@KR Wordgazer wrote:

Good to see you here, Arthis mon ami!

Hmm.  I hadn't noticed that, but if Reef did kill them I'm surprised.  He used to be a healer, and as such would be opposed to killing.  Has his long, troubled past completely wiped out that side of himself?

Good to see you too Very Happy

I'm not sure healers in EQ are opposed to killing (Leetah being an exception). Look at Mender, or Winnowill! Beside, I think that among the many retcons brought by Final Quest, WordsofWendy said that there were too many healers in the Wavedancers tribe, and that Reef was no longer one of them (but a shapeshifter instead).

But the fact that Reef could be a killer sadden me. It doesn't fit with his kind and shy nature that made me like him.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:18 am

I think Reef is the kind of person who'll kill only when he has no other option, and perhaps a bit more "easily" in his Defence Form.
Also, I don't think the retcon of his powers means that he's never had healing powers, just that what happened to him from his encounter with Winnowill means that he'll never use them again, or that it was the one thing which could not be restored when he was healed at the end of Discovery.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:56 pm

I guess after his effort to heal Winnowill backfired so spectacularly, Reef wouldn't be able even think of trying to heal someone else after his mind was shattered for so long. Working on himself and shaping his own flesh for once would be empowering and easier to bear.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:56 pm

@wingthing wrote:
@KR Wordgazer wrote:
I hadn't noticed that, but if Reef did kill them I'm surprised.  He used to be a healer, and as such would be opposed to killing.

You sure about that? I don't think Mender is *that* much of an anomaly.

Yeah, come to think of it, you're right. I guess I was just projecting from Leetah's ethic onto the others.

But honestly-- "Do no harm" SHOULD be a healer's ethic, even if it's not for most of them!

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:41 pm

I think it's easy for healers to slip off that ethical fine line... they can be total control freaks if they allow it. A healer can be a most efficient killer. I think if there's no outlet for their gifts (like Winnowill), they can fester and rot, which is really quite sad.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:00 am

@KR Wordgazer wrote:
@wingthing wrote:
@KR Wordgazer wrote:
I hadn't noticed that, but if Reef did kill them I'm surprised.  He used to be a healer, and as such would be opposed to killing.

You sure about that? I don't think Mender is *that* much of an anomaly.

Yeah, come to think of it, you're right.  I guess I was just projecting from Leetah's ethic onto the others.  

But honestly-- "Do no harm" SHOULD be a healer's ethic, even if it's not for most of them!

Sure, but you can also overdo it, like Leetah back during the OQ. Ehm... that troll would have killed your daughter.
Same with Reef in this situation, I doubt those humans would just have agreed to hide with the elves, and even if he'd just scared them away they might have decided to come back and rid that grotto of the demon spawn!
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:26 pm

@Arthis wrote:
Beside, I think that among the many retcons brought by Final Quest, WordsofWendy said that there were too many healers in the Wavedancers tribe, and that Reef was no longer one of them (but a shapeshifter instead).

Oh for the love of Mike... you made your bed, now lie in it! It's no more silly that there may be a tribe with a tendency toward healing than that every single elf in Blue Mountain (with the exception of Winnowill) was a flyer. Work with it, find a way to use it - why not have a Wavedancer healer choose to stay in the Palace (well, besides this whole "you have to be evolved enough to deserve it" thing she's got going) or even join another tribe that needs more healers? You know what would be neat - if one joined Shenshen in her work among the humans. I'm sure she needs it - I'm not sure her skills are much good against Pre-eclampsia.

Or at least pick someone whose backstory does not hinge on an attempted healing. Bah.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:48 pm

Well, his backstory hinge on an attempted healing, which backfired so horribly it might have burned away his ability to heal. Either physically; he doesn't have the power anymore, or mentally; he doesn't know how to use it.

As for having one of the Wavedancer healers live with another tribe, or travel with Shenshen and company; there's this little problem that they need to be near water.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:57 pm

Elfs have to drink, don't they? It would be practical to live near water, and the wavedancer can live in the water...
For Shenshen, travelling around, it could pose a problem. I don't see her dragging along a bathtub with a wavedancer in it...

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