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 Final Quest # 13

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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:19 pm

As usual, Wisp, you nail it with the comments. I found Sunstream's response to Korfay rather condescending as well as eye rolling. Yet I've never connected to Sunstream's character at all because I always found him just completely un-relateable in his blissed out Koolaid haze. He's so far out there, so it's not surprising to hear him sound this way. yet, still, DUDE, it's your daughter. I mean, don't you have an opinion about all of this, Sunstream? Some feeling of your own that doesn't sound like a mouthpiece for Timmain? Jeez.

I do think Ember though is having to lead not just those 4 but also Tyleet, Scouter, Dewshine, Pool, Sust, and what about Mender and Dart? And Tier? I thought that was her little tribe? Unless they split up too...Now I'm confused!


The part about the human who became a surgeon really saddened me. Seemed like a good guy too. What on earth is the Ice Holt, though? Is there something I'm forgetting ?? Also yes, the humans are freakin' dumb. And also, it's really stupid that Djun's guys are fulfilling his dying wish... humans don't do that. One crazy dies and while another crazy rises to power, there's also a period of chaos and uncertainty (not the kind of chaos and uncertainty which the former leader EXACTLY wants, which is what this is. This is like, what, they love him so much? He was that good of a leader? None of that was ever shown)....when a leader is nuts and that much of a megalomaniac, his followers are not going to be just falling into line the second he dies, are you kidding me? There's going to be some kind of uprising or something, or many will leave. The ones who remain won't even be thinking for themselves but I don't know if they'd grab for power so directly unless they were bending the leader's ear before he died. And no one was 'advising' Djun before he died. So it's fairly ridiculous. It's always been a complaint of mine that as EQ continued, the human storyline became lazier and lazier (with exceptions of Wildhunt, which was pretty realistic since it dealt directly with that blood lineage) until they've become cartoony and just unbelievable.
I could go on and on about it forever, so moving on....


Favorite parts:
- Cutter stuff, as I said before.
- LOVED Filcher showing up, and I think Cutter didn't freak out because it was one of those 'back to basics' moments of no magic. I don't think Filcher will make it, but who knows. Still, a very touching scene.
- Dr Dre snoozing Zzz on his pony cracked me up so hard. I don't know why. It was just so random.
- Trolls, trolls, trolls. Trinket being a huge brat as always and Picky putting his foot down (icky).
- Strongbow's dialogue with Nightfall. Strongbow remains (along with Cutter) the most relatable one in terms of this entire batshit situation with Timmain. ( *Small rant* : I actually think Strongbow should've joined the search party because he *understands* Cutter's situation better than anyone since he's dealt with it himself on a smaller (yet no less important) level long ago. Who else would know better about identity and The Way? Cutter told Strongbow and Moonshade to remind him of The Way all that time ago, and since Moonshade's off wearing moth fabrics and probably daydreaming about how many colors Koolaid comes in, Strongbow seems like a very reasonable alternative. But never mind.).

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manga

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:51 pm

I haven't read it yet and won't until Thursday, but I'm puzzled by the talk of Windkin sending his gratitude and it flummoxing Winnowill. Earlier Rayek had told him to save his gratitude because Winnowill would only see it as mockery. So... What gives? It's not that I don't think Rayek can be wrong but it seems like bad writing to me when he's spent the last forty-odd years listening to her rants and raves and suffering through the kind of crap we saw in "Rogue's Curse."
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:11 pm

@Zadzi wrote:
Cutter told Strongbow and Moonshade to remind him of The Way all that time ago, and since Moonshade's off wearing moth fabrics and probably daydreaming about how many colors Koolaid comes in, Strongbow seems like a very reasonable alternative. But never mind.).

Thank you.... thank you so much for putting this ass backwards part of the plot into the most perfect words. I bow to your point blank perspective, Zadzi.

*shies away back into the shadows*

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wingthing

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:35 pm

@Zadzi wrote:
As usual, Wisp, you nail it with the comments. I found Sunstream's response to Korfay rather condescending as well as eye rolling. Yet I've never connected to Sunstream's character at all because I always found him just completely un-relateable in his blissed out Koolaid haze. He's so far out there, so it's not surprising to hear him sound this way. yet, still, DUDE, it's your daughter. I mean, don't you have an opinion about all of this, Sunstream? Some feeling of your own that doesn't sound like a mouthpiece for Timmain? Jeez.

I'm telling ya, Timmain is a brainwashing cult leader!

Sigh... I miss when he was still Suntop. Sad


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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:38 pm

@Zadzi wrote:
What on earth is the Ice Holt, though? Is there something I'm forgetting ??
Iceholt is one of the continents - with the Fathertree Holt, Sorrow's End, Blue Mountain and the Frozen Mountains.


click on the picture for a readable version

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Wisp

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:31 pm

@Zadzi wrote:
I do think Ember though is having to lead not just those 4 but also Tyleet, Scouter, Dewshine, Pool, Sust, and what about Mender and Dart? And Tier? I thought that was her little tribe? Unless they split up too...Now I'm confused!

As best I understand it (and admittedly, all the moving pieces are hard to follow,) Ember came to the 1st Annual Chiefs Convention with Teir, Yun, Pike, Mender, Dart, and Freetouch from the Unscalable Mountain Holt. Everyone except Ember, Yun, and Pike went back to that holt in a palace pod sometime after Cutter went nuts. So who is left at the Father Tree Holt. I don't include Treestump, Clearbrook, and Ahdri because they're down in the troll caves. I literally think Ember abandoned her tribe's leadership to Scouter and Teir (yikes) in order to lead ~4 elves in the original holt.

Quote :
Yet I've never connected to Sunstream's character at all because I always found him just completely un-relateable in his blissed out Koolaid haze. He's so far out there, so it's not surprising to hear him sound this way. yet, still, DUDE, it's your daughter.

"Get back to me when you're really suffering, kid." Ah, Sunstream. Father of the Year. Rolling Eyes

Quote :
Cutter told Strongbow and Moonshade to remind him of The Way all that time ago, and since Moonshade's off wearing moth fabrics and probably daydreaming about how many colors Koolaid comes in, Strongbow seems like a very reasonable alternative.

Laughing Strongbow should have just gone over to Cutter's place with a six pack. They wouldn't even need to say anything. But seriously, Strongbow and Cutter's journeys seem to be mirrors in some ways. But Strongbow's not in the "heart circle," so who needs him.

I will be very sad if Filcher sacrifices himself for Cutter. When he tried to steal Cutter's boot that time...one of my favorite moments in FQ. Sneaky wolf.

Agree with your assessment of human politics, Zadzi. The Djuns were not exactly charismatic leaders. There was absolutely zero chance, based on what we've seen in the comics, that any of their people would follow through on their wishes. We don't even know who this new human leader is. He's just a nameless mustache-twirler.

Also loved Dre-Ahn on his pony. I guess he just got sleepy. Even though the entrance to the troll caves like 10 minutes from the father tree.
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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:58 am

@Wisp wrote:


As best I understand it (and admittedly, all the moving pieces are hard to follow,) Ember came to the 1st Annual Chiefs Convention with Teir, Yun, Pike, Mender, Dart, and Freetouch from the Unscalable Mountain Holt.  Everyone except Ember, Yun, and Pike went back to that holt in a palace pod sometime after Cutter went nuts.  So who is left at the Father Tree Holt.  I don't include Treestump, Clearbrook, and Ahdri because they're down in the troll caves.  I literally think Ember abandoned her tribe's leadership to Scouter and Teir (yikes) in order to lead ~4 elves in the original holt.

Oh man, now I am so confused. I guess it really doesn't matter.

@Wisp wrote:
Laughing Strongbow should have just gone over to Cutter's place with a six pack.  They wouldn't even need to say anything.  But seriously, Strongbow and Cutter's journeys seem to be mirrors in some ways.  But Strongbow's not in the "heart circle," so who needs him.  

I swear, seeing those two hanging out, sharing a pack of dreamberry wine coolers in silence would right so much wrong for me in FQ. The term heart circle alone is a bit gag-worthy but I can fly with it if some random, strange wasn't tagging along instead of, say, Cutter's non-magical daughter, his Way-Keeping buddy, and maybe even Pike, who is howl-keeper and might just be awesome for a bit of bittersweet comic relief in this whole clusterf***. It's nothing against Dr. Dre. I like him and all that. It's just....well, everyone seems so nonchalant about this entire thing of their chief going completely bonkers like a rabid dog, and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of clamoring to help their Chief Of Chiefs.
Also, I kind of thought it would be appropriate for Joyleaf and Bearclaw to somehow tap Cutter on the shoulder right around now and start spouting some wisdom or observations or something. I can't imagine that wouldn't have *something* to say about all of this. Back when Cutter got really sick before meeting Nona and Adar, he saw a vision of them, and when he almost died when the Go-Backs found them, again, he had dream/vision dialogue with Bearclaw.
Maybe at some point they'll say something. It would be really, really disappointing if they didn't since they've been so central to him.

@Kindredsoul wrote:
@Zadzi wrote:
Cutter told Strongbow and Moonshade to remind him of The Way all that time ago, and since Moonshade's off wearing moth fabrics and probably daydreaming about how many colors Koolaid comes in, Strongbow seems like a very reasonable alternative. But never mind.).

Thank you.... thank you so much for putting this ass backwards part of the plot into the most perfect words. I bow to your point blank  perspective, Zadzi.

*shies away back into the shadows*

*tiny bow* I have my moments, and they are few and far between Very Happy

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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:00 am

@Embala wrote:
@Zadzi wrote:
What on earth is the Ice Holt, though? Is there something I'm forgetting ??
Iceholt is one of the continents - with the Fathertree Holt, Sorrow's End, Blue Mountain and the Frozen Mountains.


click on the picture for a readable version

This is awesome, thank you, Embala! I thought for a while that the surgeon gave the humans a false location or something to throw them off-track (was hoping so).
I still feel really bad for him. I wonder if the elves will try to save him or if this will be considered him 'not being loyal to the end'... it would be kind of unfair.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:06 pm

Honestly, the art is better where there's less colouring. It's not just where they decided that the more garish would be the better, like fight scenes and the corals, but also the part where, in the troll caves, Ahdri appears. She and Leetah are overdone, almost 3D, but Treestump and Clearbrook are underdone, and it looks wierd. It's stranger on a panel in the next page, where Ahdri looks about 3D again, and everyone else is a flat character.

I was expecting that people might be over-reacting to Sunstream's interaction with Korafay, as some tend to do when parents in elfquest tell their kids to buck up, but, yeah, that was just ridiculous. I could see something like, "You weren't even in the middle of the battle, kid, and you can't make a lifelong decision based on a bad scare." What we got was nonsense.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:32 pm

@kathleen3.0 wrote:

I was expecting that people might be over-reacting to Sunstream's interaction with Korafay, as some tend to do when parents in elfquest tell their kids to buck up, but, yeah, that was just ridiculous. I could see something like, "You weren't even in the middle of the battle, kid, and you can't make a lifelong decision based on a bad scare." What we got was nonsense.  

Nonsense... kinda like the time Leetah refused to finish healing Suntop's broken ribs because he apparently needed a nagging pain to help him heal the magical pollution left behind by Mindcoil? Because I know chronic pain ALWAYS helps me concentrate and problem-solve. Rolling Eyes

Sunstream seems right on track to follow in Mommy's (and of course Timmain's) negligent judgmental footsteps. "I say when you've suffered enough, kiddo!"
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:09 pm

@kathleen3.0 wrote:
the part where, in the troll caves, Ahdri appears. She and Leetah are overdone, almost 3D, but Treestump and Clearbrook are underdone, and it looks wierd. It's stranger on a panel in the next page, where Ahdri looks about 3D again, and everyone else is a flat character.

Yes! These are the exact panels I was complaining about! It's a product of the fact that every single character in those panels is a reused image. It's bad enough to cut-and-paste, but for the love of all that is good, adjust the colors so that all the characters look like they belong in the same panel. I can't help it, it just bothers me so much because it seems so unnecessary.

I've never tried drawing in photoshop or on a cintiq or whatever it's called that Wendy uses. Can somebody with some real-life experience shed a little light on this for me--is the process inherently more time-consuming than pencil/pen and paper? Or do you think it's just that Wendy isn't as familiar with it? She's been using it at least since Masque, right? Because here we have a genuine master artist--a woman who can bang out a spot-on drawing of any character at a comic convention--who opts for 4 mediocre recycled images in lieu of 1 new image of Ahdri. I can't help but feel I'm missing some basic understanding of digital art that could possibly explain the decision-making.
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Wisp

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:31 pm

@Zadzi wrote:
I still feel really bad for him. I wonder if the elves will try to save him or if this will be considered him 'not being loyal to the end'... it would be kind of unfair.

I'm of two minds. On the one hand, torture is bad. Good on Daboi for being independent and self-aware enough to seek a life beyond the holt if that's what he felt called to do. Since it looks like the Djunsmen are going to attack Ember at the father tree holt, I wouldn't be surprised if Daboi gets an opportunity to redeem himself or apologize somehow (not that I think he has much to apologize for given the circumstances.)

On the other hand, tortured plotting is also bad. Why wouldn't he make up a plausible story about his background (not at the time he's being tortured, but prior to that point, in order to avert suspicion)? Even if he refused to say anything about his background, the supreme leader makes quite a leap of reasoning. I can think of a dozen reasons why a person might refuse to discuss their family or childhood, and none of them are supernatural. Ignominious parentage, running from past crime, escaped servant/slave, childhood abuse...but sure, let's just assume "raised by evil demons." This probably could have been salvaged by having Daboi say something significantly more incriminating.

I'm on-board for the Cutter story and some other elements of FQ. The humans, however, are the absolute nadir of the plot for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:06 pm

Ugh, that was a boring read. Bad art in the start, copy paste art, (again) off colouring, humans being awful creatures (WHO'D HAVE THOUGHT WOW)
Gotta say the Trolls looked really good, tho.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:15 pm

@Wisp wrote:

On the other hand, tortured plotting is also bad.  Why wouldn't he make up a plausible story about his background (not at the time he's being tortured, but prior to that point, in order to avert suspicion)?  Even if he refused to say anything about his background, the supreme leader makes quite a leap of reasoning.  I can think of a dozen reasons why a person might refuse to discuss their family or childhood, and none of them are supernatural.  Ignominious parentage, running from past crime, escaped servant/slave, childhood abuse...but sure, let's just assume "raised by evil demons."  This probably could have been salvaged by having Daboi say something significantly more incriminating.  
 

Reminds me of this scene : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onkbubwAqRQ

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:26 pm

Just finished reading... I'm finding the humans pretty tedious, there's no middle ground between good and evil. Basically, if you don't make friends with an elf you're doomed to a lifetime of mustache twirling and maniacal laughter.

On a positive note, I have to agree that the sketchy monochrome stream-of-consciousness section with Cutter worked much better than a lot of Final Quest has. I would guess that Wendy's been looking forward to this part because she seems to have put a lot of effort into it.

And a final nitpick... did Leetah really stop to get a new dress made before she went looking for her missing traumatized lifemate?! (Okay, she could have dug it out of storage, but that's what I thought when I first saw it!)


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Wisp

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:34 pm

@Zadzi wrote:
Reminds me of this scene : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onkbubwAqRQ

Lolol yes.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:24 am

I just want to add that the Lesson Of Pain thing is getting really boring and if it's going to keep getting used, I'd at least like to see some whips and chains and leather involved. Timmain in shiny thigh-high patent leather stiletto boots waving around a whip, with a gagged, hog-tied Skywise at her feet.
A preserver flitting around babbling, Ooooh! Growler-High-Thing-Go-Spanky-Snap-Now? Needs Nice Shiny-Shiny Chain and Clamps?

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:28 am

@sun girl wrote:
And a final nitpick... did Leetah really stop to get a new dress made before she went looking for her missing traumatized lifemate?! (Okay, she could have dug it out of storage, but that's what I thought when I first saw it!)

Elfin equivalent of retail-therapy? God knows nothing cheers me up after a rough day than some pretty, pretty clothes!


....not that I consider that shapeless mess of "artfully distressed" Technicolor leather with the giant star brooches pretty, mind you.

@Zadzi wrote:
I just want to add that the Lesson Of Pain thing is getting really boring and if it's going to keep getting used, I'd at least like to see some whips and chains and leather involved. Timmain in shiny thigh-high patent leather stiletto boots waving around a whip, with a gagged, hog-tied Skywise at her feet.

lol! for days!
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:30 pm

I have just read it.

I liked Korafay and Reef together.
The art on the pages where Cutter is mad is very good, indeed. I'm not very impressed with the rest of the art.
I don't like the conversation between Korafay and Sunstream, either. I suppose what he means is that he knows that while she sais she wants to be in the palace now, she also desires to do things outside of it, or something like that... (It sounded a bit better when it was still in my head.) Still it comes across as very condescending. If I were Korafay I'd go right into a rebellious phase, just to show him how easy he had it all these years!

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manga

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:36 pm

Have we read the same comic? I don't understand the reaction to Sunstream's conversation with Korafay. He didn't say anything about the lesson of pain. He didn't even deny her her wish. He told her to be sure she had sung all the songs she wanted to on the WoTM and left it up to her.

What I don't get is this seeming attitude that once you live I the Palace you will never, ever live anywhere else.

What I found interesting was the contrast between Sunstream's words to Korafay and Ekuar's following comment that the immortal elves should leave the WoTM before they do any more unintended damage.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:58 am

No, he didn't use the words 'lesson of pain' but it struck me as the same song with different lyrics (speaking of songs). I just thought it came off as condescending (to me) considering the timing of that conversation with the disaster surrounding Korfay and everyone who isn't currently in the palace. Everything sucks and you might die in the middle of this disaster but hey! have you sung all your songs??
Imagine being in the midst of having your life in immediate danger and someone you're close to (a parent, even) mouthing new age gibberish at you. I'd want to turn around and and scream, Hey, bet you never heard THIS song!
Honestly, sometimes the term 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions' is just very fitting.


And i don't get it either, Manga, the attitude of why once you're in the palace you never live elsewhere.
I've never actually understood the palace at all... never in anything beyond very vague, abstract terms. I think it's the least 'developed' character in FQ and all of EQ. And it's sort of the most prominent aspect of the story, really.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:31 am

i'll go ahead and admit like manga, i didn't find sunstream's conversation with korafay condescending.

to me, it was "daddy, i'm scared cause of all the crazy stuff and i'm lonely and i don't want to feel this ever again!"

"i understand, but don't let one storm make you want to live in an underground bunker equivilant forever. would you be ready for that?"

"i don't know daddy."

"then take some time, calm down a little and decide for yourself what you want with a clear head."

to me, it really was a case of him telling her to not rush a decision before she was really ready to make it.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:46 am

The rules, why and when someone is allowed to go to palace surely are strange. If Brill would've decided to stay in the palace after the meeting, would they have kicked her out? Would she have to travel all the way to the palace to be eligible to stay? The humans are one-dimensional and their behaviour doesn't really make sense, this applies to the good ones as well as the bad ones.
Still, it's a rather good issue. A little glimmer of hope for the future issues Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:48 am

@manga wrote:
He didn't say anything about the lesson of pain.

@Zadzi wrote:
No, he didn't use the words 'lesson of pain'

Not to take away from the point Manga was making, but Sunstream did use the words "lesson of pain", actually. "It's the lesson of pain, my lovely pip."

For me, the advice Sunstream was trying to give to Korafay didn't rub me the wrong way, but hearing that phrase again really did. Considering the "lesson of pain" is one of Timmain's favourite themes, it implies to me how deeply Sunstream has drunk of her koolaid Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:11 am

@Zadzi wrote:
No, he didn't use the words 'lesson of pain' but it struck me as the same song with different lyrics (speaking of songs). I just thought it came off as condescending (to me) considering the timing of that conversation with the disaster surrounding Korfay and everyone who isn't currently in the palace. Everything sucks and you might die in the middle of this disaster but hey! have you sung all your songs??
Imagine being in the midst of having your life in immediate danger and someone you're close to (a parent, even) mouthing new age gibberish at you. I'd want to turn around and and scream, Hey, bet you never heard THIS song!
Honestly, sometimes the term 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions' is just very fitting.

This is exactly why I thought it was condenscending, even though I understand what Sunstream was saying. I know new age talking people in my life and they can come across so high aired. Like they think they're wiser than everybody else. Sunstream talks like that and I think it''s very annoying. If Timmain really had a cult, he'd be at the core of it.

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