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Kindredsoul

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PostSubject: /Apology/Solution   Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:54 pm

First I would like to apologize for not addressing a certain problem sooner. I guess I was hoping things would improve on their own in time, because they always did between issues and members back in the days of the SoC forum.

Back then, we could disagree and dispute over the most sensitive “human” issues, such as religion, race, abortion, politics, guns, and so on, yet STILL continue to come together as a “tribe” of family and friends. No Matter Our Personal Differences.  

Even those who did not get along followed an unspoken elfin example (*coughRayekandCuttercoughcough*) of simply giving each other space until they were ready to mend their personal disgruntlements with each other, if ever.

Point being, no matter our own personal beliefs, or ethnicities, or opinions, Elfquest still brought us together because it was the Preserver goo of love that bonded us together.

But that very “goo” feels like it’s now separating us. That’s not what the SoC was about. And that’s not what Father Tree is about. That unity from the SoC was meant to be the same here.

Thing is, the solution should be simple. I should have addressed this so much sooner, but like I said, I had hope that more fans would come to like Final Quest in time. Even for myself, who finds it disappointing. The fact is, after so many issues that have been released so far, I have to face the fact that the division of fans is not going to get any better about it.

But that’s ok.

Remember, we all still had the ability to respect and honor different opinions, no matter how different and sensitive they were and still be a friendly and loving tribe. But now we’re Recognized as the Final Quest “haters”? If that were the case, haters don’t continue to buy and read and TRY to love something. “Haters” is far too strong of a word, nor do I think anyone here wants to be thought of as such.

Father Tree is meant to be an extension of the Scrolls of Colors where we all found a reprieve of sanctuary from the multiple stresses of reality. A "shard", so to speak since the internet has us so scattered. A place where members knew they were going to find a laugh and hug before ever logging online. A place where there was no alienation. Where it didn’t feel “negative” all the time.

I’m hoping my modest attempt will help as a solution.

I’m sure some of you noticed Balckbird’s and KR Wordgazer’s comments, (as well as Redhead Ember who’s persistence of support should be noted) where they don’t feel they can share their opinions of Final Quest here because the majority aren’t happy with it. That is completely understandable. Many of us were too scared to post anything negative in the latest SoC out of fear of being reprimanded or scorned.

Unfortunately, it’s a double edge sword and it absolutely sucks that fans are so divided now, where it never was before.

So I’m going to start a typical thread ( http://fathertreeholt.forumotion.com/t524-the-love-of-final-quest#13839 )that is solely for those who thoroughly ENJOY Final Quest. And ONLY positive discussions about it so those members don’t have to read all the negativity in current FQ discussions in order to post their enjoyment, nor be concerned over something negative said about their own positive comments.

Is it a lame idea? Will it work? I don’t know. But what I do know is that I want EVERYONE to feel as comfortable coming here and expressing themselves as we all did in the SoC of old.

Again, my deepest apologies for not addressing this matter sooner. I understand everyone’s frustrations and only wish to take everyone’s feelings into consideration. If anyone has any additional ideas, please feel free to share.

And always remember...


Edit: (added thread link)

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Trollbabe

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:10 pm

I wasn't aware of this situation, and I appreciate that you have addressed it. I'm not 100% satisfied with the stories in "Final Quest", but I will continue to buy it.

Currently the plot seems to be about resolving countless loose threads. Some of it gets rather plodding. I particularly like the way they resolved Dart's grief issues, and the part about Moonshade and Strongbow (no spoilers.)

As always, I think the Trolls came in too late, and should have more face time. (Everybody knew I was going to say that.)

The look of Final Quest is a wide departure from the look of Elfquest circa 1978. Some will like it, some won't. The same goes for the writing. The first several issues revolved around Cutter. I think Skywise was initially supposed to be killed off before "Hidden Grove."

If fans don't like how the story is progressing, that's one reason why we have fanfiction.

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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:11 pm

I actually like the idea of people sharing negative and positive feedback together-- it makes for a debate. It's less interesting when everyone just agrees-- or a handful of people are loud and drown out dissent.

But a positive discussion thread would be interesting too. It would sort of force the rest of us to think a little differently than we have been-- and look for the things we like. That would be a neat exercise, i think.

I do think we are sort of in a negative feedback loop here. It would be good to break that.

In my opinion, The Final Quest has it's problems-- but it also has it's highlights. There are things about it that work and things that don't. I don't see it being summed up in one flat grade.

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Trollbabe

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:15 pm

Personally, I am wondering if we are ever going to see the variety of titles and artists that we had in the nineties. You could fill one whole series with some of the group relationships in "Final Quest."

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sun girl

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:21 pm

This sounds quite a good idea, Kindredsoul. The idea reminds me of a (sort of) similar situation on the Game of Thrones section of the Song of Ice and Fire forum, where the fandom can also be very divided between show-admirers and show-detractors: they usually open "positive nitpicking" and "negative nitpicking" threads for each episode, "For all of those who want to discuss what they liked/disliked about the show without repercussions." And in those threads, nobody can come in and derail the discussion by in the one case being negative, or in the other case trying to shut down negative opinions. They're safe havens.

I agree with Lunakat personally, I like to see the debate out in the open (and get in there and stir shit, I can't deny!) but I feel bad if I've contributed to an atmosphere where people are feeling uncomfortable sharing their positive opinions. It's still very much the opposite case on EQ.com and the facebook page, so I didn't know where else to go with my… visceral reactions to Final Quest.


Last edited by sun girl on Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nibblet

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:23 pm

Just my tuppence worth on the subject.

I haven't joined in any discussion because I haven't read it. I read up to #6 then stopped buying it. The reason I stopped buying it is because Forbidden Planet stopped stocking it because no one but me was buying it and they were losing money on it. I refuse to pay triple the cost of the actual comic to get it shipped to me when I can barely afford the rent and food at the same time. I wasn't overly enamoured with it but I was going to continue to buy it and see how it all came together in the end, but that decision was taken out of my hands eventually anyway. So I don't think I am qualified to comment on anything that has happened in the threads and I'm going to put my hands up and admit that I haven't read anything anyone has posted on the subject either. I dip in from time to time, look around, see that I have absolutely no idea what anyone is talking about and leave. Not a lover, not a hater, I'm an indifferent-er. 

Also, I do log in every single day and make sure things are running smoothly behind the curtains. I Check what I can in the threads, but not all of them all the time. If I do see anything that raises an eyebrow, I share it with the other two admins asap. We consult on EVERY forum decision/important thing that goes on. It may not look like we are around much but we absolutely are.

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Tymber

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:41 pm

@Kindredsoul wrote:

I’m sure some of you noticed Balckbird’s and KR Wordgazer’s comments, (as well as Redhead Ember who’s persistence of support should be noted) where they don’t feel they can share their opinions of Final Quest here because the majority aren’t happy with it. That is completely understandable. Many of us were too scared to post anything negative in the latest SoC out of fear of being reprimanded or scorned.

E'gads! And I just posted a happy birthday thread to KR Wordgazer - and talking about how awesome she was... and to think, my negativity (which I have been openly negative about Final Quest thus far) - has played a part to the very thing I noted "that she doesn't post here much" - Ugh - I feel dreadful that my negativity played a part in that.

However, like Luna said; I don't mind someone throwing in positive things they like and take away from Final Quest. I'd welcome it as it may create some insight as to what I am missing, and perhaps make me more understanding. While I am not enjoying Final Quest, as it has been going so far, I am not entirely closed to listening to anything good about it!

Thank you for at least creating a thread for them to come here and feel welcomed. I hope it extends to the rest of the forum as well.

I guess I never post anything elsewhere - like on Facebook for the ElfQuest pages - because of the very same reason they feel alienated (ironic) - but for opposite reasons. Everyone on Facebook pages for ElfQuest is very "All Hail Wendy" - so to post something negative invokes flame and fire. So I stopped. And now, because of the negativity I feed here towards Final Quest, is the very reason, very good people don't post here.

Eye opening indeed. And my sincere apologies.

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Elwing

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:45 pm

That is a very good point that you make, and I think this is a great idea. it's easy to drain out joy by a sea of cynicism, and it is also a deeply regrettable thing. Nobody should feel oppressed by negativity. This thread should serve as a safe refuge.
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Trollbabe

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:30 pm

Now I'm starting to get the picture, although I don't know where the various comments are posted.

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:40 pm

@Trollbabe wrote:
Now I'm starting to get the picture, although I don't know where the various comments are posted.

Well, for me - just check anyof the Final Quest threads in the Comic Discussion. I, admit, with my disappointment, I have been pretty vocal and relentless.

I admit my guilt in this.

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Outlier

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:52 pm

I know that I'm just as guilty of this as anyone, but I hate to segregate a group of people, like here's your little corner. I would much rather try to make an effort to make everyone feel welcome to post their comments, as I really like to hear opinions different from my own. That's how you learn and grow.

I know that Luna sometimes steps in when the negative atmosphere starts getting thick. Maybe more of us can try to do the same and diffuse the negativity a bit, especially now that we're aware of it. I know I will.

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:29 pm

I'm one of those that find aspects of FQ good, but am still waiting to see how it comes together. I for one have never felt the urge to be negative on any subject. I do try to take a middle road and see what others may think. All people have differing opinions and that is what make for good conversation. Not to beat someone over the head with an opinion that would be considered biased by another. So with that being said, we all need to watch our p's and q's and stop and think before we post.

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ErinC1978

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:48 am

I like the idea of having a thread for positive comments!

One one hand, it's a relief that relentless positivity isn't the expectation here. Folks have posted a lot of intelligent and well-observed criticism of FQ, and I won't lie, it's been nice to have a chance to vent about the stuff that's annoying me.

But at the same time, since I have been on balance enjoying FQ, at times the sheer weight of folks' (entirely understandable!) unhappiness with it has been getting me down a bit. So, also having a thread for squee makes me happy.

Like Lunakat, though, I hope fans keep on keeping on with the spirited discussions, positive and negative both.
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Elwing

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:55 am

I think FQ is a train wreck and I will continue to be vocal about that. It's good to have an appreciation thread for the good things though, because there are still plenty of those. I Really like the covers of #12 and #13, for two!
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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:53 am

I shall only say I am no 'hater'.
The Final Quest has not disappointed me, so far.

What DID disappoint me was the way the old Scroll was somehow frozen.

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Davrille

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:02 am

Where is this designation of "FQ haters" coming from?

I just reread Kindredsoul's original post again, and something struck me:

The fact is, after so many issues that have been released so far, I have to face the fact that the division of fans is not going to get any better about it.

The thing is, there's only 105 members here. That's a VERY small number of EQ fans. While there's an attitude of "We here on the Father Tree are the real, core EQ fans" that's simply not so. Not only is it false, it's a dangerous attitude to have. Echo chambers are not good things.

Some of the comments in the last couple weeks, to me, have a note of looking for anything to criticize, no matter how spurious or taken out-of-context. A couple have even made me wonder if we've read the same comics all these years.

Re: The Pinis and criticism. Yes, they're thin-skinned. OTOH, I've criticized the story of FQ on the official FB page. Only once have I gotten a response (about how the Scroll of Colors worked), but my other comments were never removed. And I've seen a couple comments aimed personally -- about personal matters -- at Wendy and Richard that were facepalm-inducing. I think people forget the FB pages are their 'front porches", so to speak, and that we don't really know W&R. We are for all extents and purposes, strangers. And that there is at times a blurring of criticism of the comic and a criticism of them as people. The former they seem willing to hear out, even if they get defensive; the latter, not so much. How many of us would take personal criticism from strangers on our own front porch?
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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:41 am

Im still trying to sort out my thoughts on this subject. For my current line of thought, I figure my feelings about FQ were along the lines of how I (and many others) felt about Star Wars Episodes 1-3: they have their faults, they could have been better, but I still watch them, still enjoy parts of them, and still consider myself a Star Wars fan (this can also he said of various Star Trek movies, the Eragon movie, and hundreds, if not thousands of other movies, stories, and comics). Personally, I dont know how you can have a fandom without discussing detractors, but I guess in this case the "attractors" arent discussed as much as they should be. I will try harder to be more balanced in my critique.

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:07 pm

Nice job Kin on creating a place for the ones who needed it... Like

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sun girl

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:14 pm

Davrille: I don't think Kindred was saying that Father Tree is the "real" fans, or that the division here means that there is necessarily division in the larger fandom. But she's directly concerned with what goes on here, so she's addressing the division of fans here because it's become enough of an issue. Yay for the love thread btw! Even if it's not the place for me!

I'm gonna continue to criticize exactly what I feel deserves criticism, in Final Quest and Elfquest as a whole, because why shouldn't I say what I think. This isn't the Pinis' front porch, and that's exactly why I come here. But hopefully I can do that without stepping on toes.
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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:23 pm

I see Kin's view very clearly. Because I now see myself from the other side.

So when the first few issues of Final Quest came out (before I was recruited to come here), I would vocalize on the ElfQuest FB page. And typically, vocalizing my dislike of a lot of what was happening, a good discussion eventually turned to an attack - because folks on the ElfQuest FB page seem to be in the majority of "All Hail Pinis!" attitude (in my view back then). So, I ceased posting there, because every time, it was an assault eventually on my views of disliking it.

I have helped create the opposite environment here - opposite in that, my dislike of Final Quest, and being (perhaps overly vocal, sarcastic, and snide) - has created an environment where people, whose opinions I greatly admire and appreciate - who also happen to enjoy Final Quest - feel like they can't come here because of the negativity.

I think moving forward - not just the appreciation thread (which is a good idea!) - I think we should make an effort to always list PROs and CONs of what we think of the current issue. So it's not so ill balanced, one way or the other.

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sun girl

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:24 pm

…why should we have to come up with pros? What if we can't? We have to just shut up?
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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:22 pm

Just don't post i the thread that's all about positive stuff.

And try not to be so hostile about it.

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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:24 pm

You don't have to shut up. You can comment anywhere and everywhere else just like always do.

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sun girl

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:34 pm

Okay Lunakat, I didn't mean to be hostile. I fully intend to respect the positive thread.
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Kindredsoul

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PostSubject: Re: /Apology/Solution   Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:36 pm

@sun girl wrote:
Davrille: I don't think Kindred was saying that Father Tree is the "real" fans, or that the division here means that there is necessarily division in the larger fandom. But she's directly concerned with what goes on here, so she's addressing the division of fans here because it's become enough of an issue.

Correct. I just meant here in this site where members are concerned. Not the entire fanbase overall. Sorry for the confusion, Davrille.

As for the "haters" term, it was mentioned some time back that a comment was made elsewhere that this site appear to be. Perhaps I'm too sensitive, but I do care so much that I don't want this site to be perceived that way with such a word

Are we too critical? Perhaps. But not haters.

I hope that clarifies those points. Smile

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