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Redhead Ember

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PostSubject: Naming Conventions   Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:42 pm

Something I've been wondering for some time is why some elves get a name that fits them perfectly right from the moment they're born, or before that, while others don't get a name right away, and the name they get might end up not fitting so well later on, resulting in a name change.
(Of course there are also those whose name is a reflection of something else; Newstar getting her name because she was the first Wolfrider born after Madcoil for example.)
How come? Are some parents just better than others at sensing their children's power before the birth?
And do some parents just have a very bad imagination?

Another, related, question is when and how the whole "His/hers is a Wolfrider's soulname, but the tribe may call him/her [X]" thing got started. I imagine if Bearclaw and Joyleaf had done that the reactions might've been something akind to:
"Yes, of course he has a Wolfrider's Soulname! What else kind of name would he have? And we know his name is going to be 'Cutter', you've been calling him 'Cutter' for the last two turns of the seasons!"
I can think of three possible explanations:

1:
It was a tradition back from when there was still pureblooded elves living among the Wolfriders. Back then the Wolfriders might have needed a way to convey to the pureblooded elves that there were things about them only those closest to them would ever know.
This of course means that Bearclaw and Joyleaf did the whole thing, but if it was the way things had always been done it probably wouldn't have been considered strange.

2:
It was started by Cutter and Leetah after the birth of the twins, in order to show the Sunfolk, well... same as above.
The tradition was then continued by Dewshine, and later Nightfall and Redlance, who might've also done it to honour Leetah.

3:
A combination of the above. It used to be a tradition, but fell out of use when it began being too silly.
During Leetah's pregnancy Pike, with the help of that dreamberry bush, remembered that this was the way things used to be done, and suggested Cutter and Leetah picked up the tradition again.
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kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: Naming Conventions   Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:28 pm

I don't recall the specification of a wolfrider's soul name being a thing except during KOTBW when Nightfall was using it to explain that although she and Redlance were giving their kid a sun village type name, she was still a Wolfrider, and she would eventually have a soul name.
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Embala

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PostSubject: Re: Naming Conventions   Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:40 pm

Redhead Ember wrote:
1:
It was a tradition back from when there was still pureblooded elves living among the Wolfriders. Back then the Wolfriders might have needed a way to convey to the pureblooded elves that there were things about them only those closest to them would ever know.
I've read somewhere (Scroll of Colors? Wolfrider Guide? Prose novel?) that in the days of Timmorn there was kind of ceremony. Timmorn "judged" each newborn whether it was of the Hunt, "Wolfrider" or Others (= pureblooded elf) or whether it would live at all.

Very blurred memories ... @Shadowpath? @Startear? Help please!?

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sun girl

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PostSubject: Re: Naming Conventions   Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:42 pm

Embala, that was definitely from one of the Blood of Ten Chiefs short stories, though I don't know which one.
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Embala

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PostSubject: Re: Naming Conventions   Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:49 pm

Must be "Colors" then - from "The Blood of Ten Chief" - the only one I ever managed to read. Unless I remember it from a discussion ...

Thanks, sun girl sunny

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PostSubject: Re: Naming Conventions   Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:13 pm

In "Coming of Age", in which the lowly she-wolf became Rahnee the She-Wolf, she didn't understand how Timmorn would judge his cubs, either out of not remembering or having never spoken with him on the subject. But Rahnee found herself very relieved when her last little half-sister Journey had four fingers. I guess that meant three fingers and a thumb, hence being elfin enough to survive and not so wolf-blooded as to be like the hunt.

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Shadowpath

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PostSubject: Re: Naming Conventions   Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:43 pm

[quote="Embala"]
Redhead Ember wrote:
1:
Very blurred memories ... @Shadowpath? @Startear? Help please!?

Yes hello this is Shadowpath and this is the segment you're remembering:

'Timmorn had always judged his cubs. He'd taken each newborn into his arms and known its nature. He knew if it was hunt or first-born - or if it could survive at all. It was a judgement the She-Wolf knew she could not make.'
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Shadowpath

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PostSubject: Re: Naming Conventions   Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:03 pm

Redhead Ember wrote:

Another, related, question is when and how the whole "His/hers is a Wolfrider's soulname, but the tribe may call him/her [X]" thing got started. I imagine if Bearclaw and Joyleaf had done that the reactions might've been something akind to:
"Yes, of course he has a Wolfrider's Soulname! What else kind of name would he have? And we know his name is going to be 'Cutter', you've been calling him 'Cutter' for the last two turns of the seasons!"
I can think of three possible explanations:

I think the whole 'His/hers is a Wolfrider's soulname, but the tribe may call him/her [X]'-thing, is a throwback to the age of Timmorn.

It's Timmorn's 'judgement' continued, for some reason. It's aim was to point out what a child is/was. Hunt or First-born. (If I remember right. There was 'Other' but I always assumed that was the pure-blooded?)
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Redhead Ember

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PostSubject: Re: Naming Conventions   Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:53 am

Aah, okay. Didn't know the bit about Timmorn judging the cubs. Guess we'll never really know it it continued all the way up to Cutter's time, or fell out of use and was then picked up again.
Of course I don't know if Cutter and Leetah did that for Suntop and Ember, but it kinda makes sense; what with them being the first Wolfrider cubs born for several millennia with pureblooded elves present.
Dewshine (and Scouter) did it with Windkin in one of the earlier NB stories, of course back then there was concern that might now even have a soulname. Same concern, of course, could also have been an issue with Suntop and Ember.

This actually leads me to another thing; soulnames themselves.
Soulnames are tied to the Wolfblood, yet pureblooded Sunstream has one, while wolfblooded Kimo, Serrin, and Yun presumably don't have any. (Windkin, Skywise and Moonshade don't Count here since they were born with wolfblood and later lost it.)
However, if my new theory is true; that all elf spirits are born from the Great Flamey Spirit Pool in the Palace, and wolfrider spirits need to have a name in order to remember that they're elves after they get tied to the mortal body of a wolfblooded Wolfrider, then I guess it kinda makes sense.
When Klynn and Zheel was first born, at the very moment of Recognition between Tam and Leetah, it was probably thought that they would both have wolfblood. Then later, after they'd actually been conceived, Ember decided to call all the wolfblood, while Suntop called for... something else.
As for Kimo, Serrin, and Yun; well, we don't actually know that they don't have them. Sure, the Recognition between Dart/Dyrr and Serrin happened without any soulname seemingly being revealed, but that could be a mistake on Barry Blair's part. As for Kimo and Yun; they've never recognized, so of course we haven't had their soulnames revealed yet.

I kinda just came up with another theory regarding soulnames, but I'll post that in the issue 12 thread as it's kinda spoilery.
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PostSubject: Re: Naming Conventions   Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:16 am

Redhead Ember wrote:

However, if my new theory is true; that all elf spirits are born from the Great Flamey Spirit Pool in the Palace, and wolfrider spirits need to have a name in order to remember that they're elves after they get tied to the mortal body of a wolfblooded Wolfrider, then I guess it kinda makes sense.

Back when I was trying to make a game and was categorizing the aspects of Elf Quest I mused about a "Soul Name" or "Recognition" Generator: a plot device (perhaps tied to the Palace) that generated new Elves and molded the tribes for "proper" offspring.

The only issue I see with such a thing being tied to the Palace could be:
A) At some point, there was no Palace. It was drawn from the Cone-Head's planet and created as a vessel, then became the Palace.
B) Even if, now, the Palace is part of procreation of Elfin spirits, what happens when it's not there? In the case of 'mortal' elves, that have ties to Abode, there are other means by which to generate spirit, but whether the Palace is in a temporal leap (such as the one Rayak did), or flat out leaves (as is implied in Future Quest), how could 'pure blooded' Elves have young? Or would the be 'soulless', or rather 'soul-name-less'?

Just playing around with the idea.
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Redhead Ember

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PostSubject: Re: Naming Conventions   Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:12 am

A)
That'll just mean that, tehcnically, are tied to The soil of the Conehead's original planet, of which the Palace might very well be the only thing remaining.

B)
Even if the Palace isn't there in space or time, it'll still be "there".
We know from Kahvi that time doesn't work normally for spirits, and distance probably don't matter much either. Or... this is the reason signs of elves are all but gone by the time of Jinks/Rebels; chosing to stay Means becoming truly mortal; no more immortal spirit.


BTW:

kathleen3.0 wrote:
I don't recall the specification of a wolfrider's soul name being a thing except during KOTBW when Nightfall was using it to explain that although she and Redlance were giving their kid a sun village type name, she was still a Wolfrider, and she would eventually have a soul name.

All the elf names are the same "style", it's just that the Wolfriders and Wavedancers have their names translated, while the Sunfolk, Gliders and Go-Backs don't.
Cutter isn't actually called Cutter - just like the elves don't actually speak English - but the meaning behind his name would be completely lost if it wasn't translated. However, in other cases names remain untranslated because somehing which is a single word in the elfin language translates into a complete phrase in English; just imagine how tedious it would be to read about Redlance and Nightfall's daughter Healer's Gift. Or what about back when Cutter was fighting with Child of the Rocks for the right to woo Healing Light?
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