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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:35 pm

@ember-- yes that's the problem. It was completely underwhelming to only hear back from five people in ten years after Sunstream trained his entire life for this and it's set up to be the crux of the story. Maybe you would find it underwhelming if Skywise did the thing he had trained to do in conjunction with Sunstream and had gone out and encountered a bunch of new tribes. I don't- but that's just me, I guess. There is an a third option that would have been cool. If say, more than four living people had shown up. If even one tribe besides the Go Backs had decided to come to the party.

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:36 pm

They probably will turn out to been door and Dodia. That's a great idea.

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:02 pm

@Redhead Ember, I think you've nailed the two extreme positions, but what's missing is the more reasonable and satisfying middle ground. All Wendy would have to have done is show a glimpse of a few more elves--maybe even a small tribe--arriving at the palace. Obviously, Dre-Anh is the newcomer with a major role to play in the story, but why not have Sunstream and Moonshade tell Reef, Brill, and Korafay that a good number of elves have answered the call, though some sadly did not survive the journey. These characters wouldn't even need a design, just show them in "gauzy" flashback...or don't show them at all. Wendy also could have just cribbed from her own design for the plains elves from way back when. Just one toss-away line would have made Sunstream's role seem less silly.

I also like the idea of Door and Dodia in wrapstuff, but if it is them, I wonder what happened to their child of recognition? That could be sad.



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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:04 pm

@Wisp: totally. I love the theory, but it makes me very worried about No-Name Sad
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:06 pm

Exactly what Whisp said!

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sun girl

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:36 pm

@Miss Gillespie wrote:
But, but... Elven language is totally melodic and stuff Sad

Sorry to dredge this point up, but I just remembered: elfin language might not be all that melodic to humans! Remember Adar's best attempt at "Cutter" was "grflpltz".
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:38 pm

I thought Dodia was already at the palace? There was a pic of her at the end of Shards being there. Unless they all left or something.

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:39 pm

@sun girl wrote:


Sorry to dredge this point up, but I just remembered: elfin language might not be all that melodic to humans! Remember Adar's best attempt at "Cutter" was "grflpltz".

Haha, I loved that scene. Yeah, didn't sound like it would be so melodic at all, more like a sneeze.

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:00 am

That bit always makes me think of Mister_Mxyzptlk
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:03 pm

@Wisp wrote:
@Redhead Ember, I think you've nailed the two extreme positions, but what's missing is the more reasonable and satisfying middle ground.  All Wendy would have to have done is show a glimpse of a few more elves--maybe even a small tribe--arriving at the palace.  

There may have been a technical problem there: we're only getting 20 pages of story. I think we'd be seeing more 'background' information brought to the forefront if there were more pages available.

Wrt 'no elf must die': In Journey to Sorrow's End Cutter thinks about the very real possibility he may have had to let Redlance die on the Stone of Sacrifice is the others hadn't been so willing to stage a rescue, weighing the loss of one life against potentially several lives lost. Later on in the book, Savah explains that the Trial of Head, Hand and Heart came from one Sun Villager wanting to prevent an awkward romantic situation turning violent.

Ahdri mortally wounded Kureel. Chot knocked Kahvi off her hawk and didn't care that she was probably falling to her death. Khavi killed Zey during the attack on the Sun Village. And if you consider the BoTC anthologies canon, at least one elf was killed by a Wolfrider. Elves have killed other elves; it's simply not nearly as common as it is among humans. Why that's so is another topic.

"No elf must die" was Cutter's personal philosophy, which is why I think he referred to it as one aspect of how the Way changed: "... I vowed that when I was a younger chief than you, even though it went against how we'd lived since the days of Timmorn Yellow-Eyes." He's talking about dying in general, but the greater point still stands: efforts should be made to keep elves from dying needlessly.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:45 pm

I don't have much to say about the more..."bitter" parts of this conversation. That is, discussion about how bad of an impression this newest series of comics has left with people and how it relates to the recent actions of the Pinis. It's certainly within people's rights to feel that way, and to be perfectly honest they've gravely disappointed me in multiple ways with both their actions towards fans and this weirdly plotted and drawn comic, but let's steer away from personal insults and unfounded speculation of people's personal lives, shall we?

That said, about this whole "only a handful of new elves have answered the call" thing... Is it weird that I've never gotten the impression that these are all the elves that have set out to find the palace? In issue #11, Reef asks "Have all the elves that are able answered "the call"?", and Sunstream answers "Not yet, Reef. Some still fear or deny it." While Sunstream's answer places emphasis on the ones that are for one reason or another shunning the call, I'd say it doesn't exclude those who're still making the journey.

Plus, well, this handful may simply be the ones who were closest to the palace's location. And thanks to Timmain's frankly short-sighted insistence on not sending out pods to gather these other elves together, anyone making the journey would be doing so on foot. What about the ones across seas and oceans, when as far as we've seen elves don't quite understand how to make or operate boats? No wonder it's taken even this small bunch years and years to appear.

I think the problem all comes down to Timmain's stipulation, really. I think I get where she's coming from: that the big thing her fellow High Ones were missing, for all their abilities, was appreciation for life and death and all the experience and wisdom it can give a person. They became weak over time, and when faced with the challenges that Abode brought them it would've been the end of them if they didn't quickly find that "wisdom of mortality" like Timmain did. I think what she's trying to do is make sure that only the ones who've learned this will be able to leave, so that the sort of mishap she and the High Ones found themselves in won't happen again on their journeys among the stars.

BUT the thing is that this leaves those who are willing but NOT able for whatever reason to go to the palace shit outta luck. And it also doesn't account for those who're goddamn scared outta their minds that this is some sort of weird trap. Plus, well, who is she to put restrictions on who's to be given the opportunity to go? She's essentially making decisions for all the undiscovered elves out there, but putting a bullshit "you have to be this wise about life to qualify or we won't even appear and prove we're real to you" spin on it.

And the thing is, if FutureQuest/Jink/The Rebels is still canon, we know that if they do leave elves behind after this whole Final Quest thing comes to a close, they must be wiped out at some point. The elves are mere myth and simply don't exist on Abode at that point, save for Jink who we're told is from the palace anyway. If elves don't leave, they're dead.

Although...I also think that the lack of new elves coming to the palace is because of art and story constraints too. We're already seeing a ton of copy-paste art cheats and sloppy layouts on these issues, and the plotline is already straining from having to wrap up loose ends from the previous series. There's only so much story you can tell in 30 or so 20-page books. Can they really fit in a few issues of getting to know a group of newly designed characters when the comic as-is is struggling in so many ways? Would the readers be content with going at it another way and just showing a bunch of new random background elves that aren't really focused on and take a backseat to the plot at large?

It's a pretty big mess, really. I don't envy the Pinis at all.
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sun girl

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:36 pm

@Lurks wrote:
Although...I also think that the lack of new elves coming to the palace is because of art and story constraints too. We're already seeing a ton of copy-paste art cheats and sloppy layouts on these issues, and the plotline is already straining from having to wrap up loose ends from the previous series. There's only so much story you can tell in 30 or so 20-page books. Can they really fit in a few issues of getting to know a group of newly designed characters when the comic as-is is struggling in so many ways? Would the readers be content with going at it another way and just showing a bunch of new random background elves that aren't really focused on and take a backseat to the plot at large?

Maybe if the Pinis are struggling to fit this story into the amount of time and pages they have to tell it, then they should have written a story that they can tell properly within those limits. The fact that this story is unwieldy isn't some situation they just found themselves in, they wrote it that way. If they don't have the time or energy to draw and write about a bunch of new elves, then they shouldn't have included a major plot point to bring in new elves.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:43 pm

I like your thoughts and how you word it, Wisp Lurks. And I hope you are right about Elves being still on their way to reach the Palace!

EDIT: I apologize for the name confusion.

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:13 pm

@sun girl wrote:
Maybe if the Pinis are struggling to fit this story into the amount of time and pages they have to tell it, then they should have written a story that they can tell properly within those limits. The fact that this story is unwieldy isn't some situation they just found themselves in, they wrote it that way. If they don't have the time or energy to draw and write about a bunch of new elves, then they shouldn't have included a major plot point to bring in new elves.

It's true, this is a situation they've written themselves into, but let's not forget that both of them are getting on in years and probably want to make the Final Quest while they still can. And I imagine people would be really disappointed if they didn't have new characters/new tribes come in during the Final Quest, yeah? Plus the whole idea of gathering all elves together has been a long-time part of the series.

I mean, while the other forum was still alive (and even before that, actually), I seem to remember fans expressing displeasure at the idea that there may only be five tribes on the entire planet, and how disappointing it would be if the series/Final Quest ended with such a small amount of elves having existed.

Don't get me wrong, I really do think Wendy and Richard's bad plotting for Final Quest is probably the biggest reason all these problems are snowballing along...but there's also a lot of pressure with fan expectation and there simply being a limited amount of time to do the Final Quest in any capacity. I'm not entirely happy with the result we're getting--and it looks to be the same for a lot of you as well--but I can certainly see a lot of different factors as to why that is.

Maybe it's true that the years away from personally telling ElfQuest stories have changed the Pinis for the worst in regards to their talents. Who can know for sure? But personally I think a lot of things are factoring into what I perceive as a decline in quality, and there's not just one thing at fault.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:40 pm

@Lurks: Yeah, that's all fair. There are definitely many reasons why the quality is declining and we can try to appreciate all those reasons. In the end, it's still disappointing.

And I still think careful planning and more attention to the writing generally could have saved a lot of faults. If they could just decide what's really important and focus, they'd be able to write a satisfying story in the time and pagespace they've got.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:07 pm

Oh yeah, definitely. There are a bunch of small things that could be improved that while it wouldn't fix the entire mess, this series would at least be more satisfying to a lot more people.

Wendy not leaning on digital shortcuts like a crutch would be a good place to start art-wise, in my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:15 am

Wendy had decades to work out the plot. Weren't the names of the adopted children of Nonna and Adar supposed to be a play upon later story arcs? So these ideas already existed in SoBM.
When did she stopped drawing the single issues by herself? In the middle of the 90'ies? There was more then enough time to come up with a bit more coherent story line.

I understand, that on that few pages it's hard to establish new characters, but then, with the exception of the Wolfriders, the other elves hardly have names at all, let alone fleshed out characters (disclaimer: I never read the novels)


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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:29 am

@Zadzi wrote:
I thought Dodia was already at the palace? There was a pic of her at the end of Shards being there. Unless they all left or something.

Yup, she is. Richard confirmed it a while ago.


@Davrille wrote:
Ahdri mortally wounded Kureel.

I'm pretty sure Ahdri never met Kureel, or ever harmed anybody.
Strongbow, on the other hand, killed Kureel.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:12 am

*sigh* Let's just mind-correct a venial name mix-up / misstyping and read Ahdri as Aroree.
Well, I did. Noticed the typo not before you've pointed it out, Redhead.

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:59 pm

@Miss Gillespie wrote:
Wendy had decades to work out the plot. Weren't the names of the adopted children of Nonna and Adar supposed to be a play upon later story arcs?

No, they were plays on current side projects going on at Warp at the time: Nima was from Chronima (or Anima), an art book Richard did, Tenchi was from the "Blood of Ten Chiefs" anthologies that were just kicking off back in 1986 and Geru was from the second EQ Gatherum.

Argh! Yes, Aroree mortally wounded Kureel. Brainskip!
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:08 pm

And Winnowil let some tree shaper dude just die in his own web after he shaped it for her.

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:19 pm

I like your thoughts and how you word it, Lurks. And I hope you are right about Elves being still on their way to reach the Palace!

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:40 am

@Lunakat wrote:
And Winnowil let some tree shaper dude just die in his own web after he shaped it for her.

Well... the thing about Winnowill is... she's kinda crazy! Winnie Evil

I guess you could say that so was Zey, the "mastermind" behind the main elves killing other elves situation.
Thing is, when you think about it; while the Go-Back war was the main breaking of the elves shall never kill other elves philosophy, it was also - afterwards - a strong example of upholding it.
Mender told Ember that he healed many of the wounds he himself had caused, and when Chot was found to be too badly wounded he wasn't just allowed to die, but rather put in wrapstuff in order to await the Palace's return with the other wounded.

As for Kahvi killing Zey; sure it was probably mostly because he'd tried to usurp her position, but I like to think it was at least partly in order to put an end to all that needless killing. She knew that it was a fall for the Go-Backs.

In fact that might be the main 'issue' here; elves who are mentally sound know it's wrong to kill other elves, whereas elves who aren't mentally sound... not so much.
Winnowill is crazy, so she doesn't care how many elves would need to die in order for her to reach her goals.
Rayek was kinda crazy when he attacked the Go-Back lodge, and later when he came up with the whole stop the crash from happening thing.
Even Aroree wasn't completely in her right mind when she stabbed Kureel.
Zey was obsessed with keeping the power over the Go-Backs, and thought optaining the Little Palace - even at the cost of other elves' lives - would be the way to do it.
Strongbow, on the other hand, became badly depressed when he killed Kureel, even though he did it in order to save his son.
Dart also became depressed after the Go-Back War. Of course it was mainly over the loss of Shushen, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that it was also over the killing.


About the Aroree-Ahrdri mixup. Honestly; I'd completely forgotten about Aroree stabbing Kureel... I thought what was being referred to was Ahdri stabbing someone else during the Go-Back war, but as I said; I really can't imagine Ahdri physically harming anyone!
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:29 pm

Aroree's stabbing I can understand...she was trying to escape the Gliders and Kureel was basically going after her physically. She wasn't in her right mind at all.

The whole thou shalt not kill any elves thing seems similar to the way...it can be shaped or stretched Razz Very Happy i'm not too worried about it.
However, the way the death of that anonymous elf was treated in FQ (She's dead...but she's here. So she made it!) got on my nerves, because it seemed overly naive or something.
Cutter could *feel* when one of his own tribe died/missing and he himself was dying and unconscious ...granted, it was one of his own, and a confusing situation, but it was still a definite loss. And Clearbrook was shredded beyond words. Of course the Palace didn't exist in the same way back then and when she felt him again she was in grateful tears but that was after a long time, and she was pretty close to hooking up with Treestump and had him to lean on for her losses.

I think the point is death of elves was never treated in such a fluffy way among elves. Being 'positive' about the death of some strange elf that was struggling to reach the palace does sort of trivialize it, strangely...I actually think it's BECAUSE so few new elves are showing up from the call that this is brought up at all. If you had like a couple of new tribes (new to the readers) and the death of this elf was mentioned, people would be like, Well that sucks but, moving on.... yet because there are very few new elves showing up, the reaction is going to be more focused on any new ones. A new one dying sort of feels like a gyp story-wise. So it's natural to have these disgruntled reactions which are going wtf.

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:43 am

@Zadzi wrote:
However, the way the death of that anonymous elf was treated in FQ (She's dead...but she's here. So she made it!) got on my nerves, because it seemed overly naive or something.

But that's the thing; we don't know how they reacted when she first arrived. They might have been torn about by grief. Her death might even have spurred them to make sure the comatose couple* made it to the Palace alive, even if it was without the aid of a pod they could still send out a bunch of Go-Backs - or even Windkin and Aroree - to fetch them.
However, her death could've happened up to ten years ago, so they've had plenty to focus on the positive; the fact that her spirit did make it.
Take Pike, on the other hand, just a few days after losing his (second) lifemate he was being all "My lifemates live."



*Hey, Embala! There's a couple for your calendar!
Bit late, though...
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