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sun girl

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:16 pm

@Redhead Ember wrote:
But that's the thing; we don't know how they reacted when she first arrived. They might have been torn about by grief. Her death might even have spurred them to make sure the comatose couple* made it to the Palace alive, even if it was without the aid of a pod they could still send out a bunch of Go-Backs - or even Windkin and Aroree - to fetch them.
However, her death could've happened up to ten years ago, so they've had plenty to focus on the positive; the fact that her spirit did make it.
Take Pike, on the other hand, just a few days after losing his (second) lifemate he was being all "My lifemates live."

If this was how it actually went down, that there were a bunch of profound emotional reactions to this death and possibly even practical help was offered because of it, and we the readers were shown none of it - really not very good storytelling again.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:36 pm

Because it's not important to the overall storyline. In fact, they didn't even need to show us the dead female, or the comatose couple, they could've opted to only introduce Dre-Ahn.

The readers weren't shown Newstar's reaction to Lutei's death either, because that wasn't important. What was important back then was Dart's reaction to Shushen's death.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:00 pm

It may be not important for the storyline ... but for quite a few of us it is important to "get into" the story. To live and laugh and cry and fear with and for the characters. To feel them being alive in my mind ... to hunt and howl with them.

Without those unimportant bits and pieces I'm just a distant reader of some comic book ... no more, no less.

I agree that part of the problem are the limited pages per issue - and the long time to wait for the sequel. Too much time to examine ervery line and word and discuss what we have almost to death.

And ... I'm simply old enough to be nostalgic. I've fallen in love with EQ almost 30 years ago ... with the art style, characters and story we got in the beginning. First love will always taste sweeter and more passionate in memory than the loving and/or content relationship of an old couple.

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:14 pm

Well... there was a 10-year timeskip. There were lots of moments that weren't shown.
Besides, do you need to know more about what happened to one (dead) background character in order to "get into" the story and live and laugh and cry and fear with and for the characters?
What about all the other characters?
What about the Wavedancers whose home is under attack?
What about Venka who just got shot?
What about Rayek who has just given in to Winnowill's influence, at the possible cost of his daughter?
What about Cutter who lost his mind?
What about the Wolfriders who are wondering what happened to their chief?
What about Strongbow who feels like everything he has lost everything he has ever known, ever loved?


@Embala wrote:
I agree that part of the problem are the limited pages per issue - and the long time to wait for the sequel. Too much time to examine ervery line and word and discuss what we have almost to death.

Wasn't the wait-time when the OQ first came out basically The next issue will be out... when it's out!?
At least now we know it's two months.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:22 pm

@Redhead Ember wrote:
What about all the other characters?
What about the Wavedancers whose home is under attack?
What about Venka who just got shot?
What about Rayek who has just given in to Winnowill's influence, at the possible cost of his daughter?
/Where's the problem? Their spirits will live in the Palace. Happier or more active than ever and have a great party time without hardship.
/exit cynism

That's what this quote does to me, Redhead. It tells me: Why care about death? Even - why care about suffering before death? It's all worth it and much better after.

You are right. There was a time gap and LOTS that was not shown. There were always time gaps ... or small story gaps ... or events which probably happened (or not) and were neither shown nor mentioned.
There were always parts of the story that were not shown. Hidden moments we were challenged and allowed to imagine, to speculate about. And for me this was a chance, a gift ... within the story with all those pictures and informations and emotions there were little moments I was allowed to envision and interpret my way.
Now it feels for me like there is an exposé of a story, and a narrator and snapshots to keep me "on line" with the important developement. And I'm expected to envision the story and feelings and relationships hidden behind this stage.

There is still enough of it to keep me following ... but FQ as it is now would not attract my attention and capture my heart the way OQ and the sequals did.

I don't know about the rules of story telling. I hardly know what's good and bad story telling (well, I know that my own fanfiction would be on the bad side) so I cannot judge this way. All I know is how it feels for me ... how it makes me emotionally envolved with the story. Blame me for it or smile at it ... that's the way I view on it and what I can comment.

Give me bits and pieces of emotion and some (storywise) unimportant details that grab my heart and I will follow your story everywhere, no matter how unlikely part of it will turn out. (i.e.: When Aroree shed tears for Littletrill it made me tear up ... because this "unimportant" animal was her friend, her freedom in the skys, her last familiar connection to her former life ... all she could rely on.)
Give me a story mainly without those emotional anchors and I will probably enjoy it as well ... but my logical mind will take over. I will analyse the story, notice each false fact, unlogical or unplausible event. Those may annoy or amuse me and depending on my mood or variant reasons I will follow the story to the end nevertheless. But I will stay mostly emotionally unattached - more interested in the closure of the story than in the characters' fate.
Give me the opposite of emphathy ... (like: "Oh, it doesn't matter they suffered. It's fine they are dead. The result is the same.") ... and it will put me off. Tell me "EVERYTHING can happen. Every rule will be broken. Everyone can die!" (i.e. Game of Thrones) I will become indifferent to both characters and story. No pleasant or worried anticipation - it actually kills my curiosity. Or simply keeps me from following the tale at all.

Well, that's just me. I don't say others need to feel the same. I don't try to convince anyone to see it like me. All I want to point out is that this IS a point of view. And I'm convinced that I'm not alone there.

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:32 pm

@Redhead Ember wrote:
Wasn't the wait-time when the OQ first came out basically The next issue will be out... when it's out!?
At least now we know it's two months.
Two or three months for me ... or: Guess, whether it will be contínued at all. Somewhen.

Those issues had 30 to 40 pages. Clearly more room to develope and "garnish" the story. And - how someone pointed out way back at the SoC:
The OQ (and SaBM, KoBW) issues where like episodes of a TV show.
The FQ issues are like episode snippets between advertisement blocks.

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sun girl

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:04 pm

@Redhead Ember wrote:
Because it's not important to the overall storyline. In fact, they didn't even need to show us the dead female, or the comatose couple, they could've opted to only introduce Dre-Ahn.

The readers weren't shown Newstar's reaction to Lutei's death either, because that wasn't important. What was important back then was Dart's reaction to Shushen's death.

Well... there was a 10-year timeskip. There were lots of moments that weren't shown.
Besides, do you need to know more about what happened to one (dead) background character in order to "get into" the story and live and laugh and cry and fear with and for the characters?
What about all the other characters?
What about the Wavedancers whose home is under attack?
What about Venka who just got shot?
What about Rayek who has just given in to Winnowill's influence, at the possible cost of his daughter?
What about Cutter who lost his mind?
What about the Wolfriders who are wondering what happened to their chief?
What about Strongbow who feels like everything he has lost everything he has ever known, ever loved?

Do I have to address every one of these points for it to be a defensible opinon that that moment with the dead elf felt weird and pulled me out of the story? Indeed, why bring up those characters at all if they're not important? That's the frustrating part. Bad storytelling.

We did actually see Newstar's reaction to Lutei's death back in New Blood. (That was also badly written and handled because it was by Barry Blair.)
As to the Wavedancers, no, I don't care about them. They've been doing nothing of interest since Discovery. And I don't have any real concern that they won't be just fine.
As to Venka, I don't have any real concern that she won't be just fine.
As to Rayek, they already wrecked his character growth when he was clinging on to Winnie's spirit a couple issues back, so I'm numb to whatever they do with him.
As to Cutter losing his mind, it's such a drama ploy for more fawning over him. And I don't have any real concern that he won't be just fine.
As to the Wolfriders losing ther chief, they frankly don't look that concerned either.
As to Strongbow, I've been watching him deal with the loss of everything he has ever known and loved throughout what feels like the entire run of FQ so far, and I'm over it.

Anything else I need to answer before I can legitimately hate those two panels of the comic book?


Last edited by sun girl on Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:51 am; edited 2 times in total
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kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:39 pm

The next issue is out on January 26th.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:42 pm

Thanks for the info, Kathleen. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:53 pm

Sorry I was wrong, January 27th.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:04 pm

@Embala wrote:
@Redhead Ember wrote:
Wasn't the wait-time when the OQ first came out basically The next issue will be out... when it's out!?
At least now we know it's two months.
Two or three months for me ... or: Guess, whether it will be contínued at all. Somewhen.

Those issues had 30 to 40 pages. Clearly more room to develope and "garnish" the story. And - how someone pointed out way back at the SoC:
The OQ (and SaBM, KoBW) issues where like episodes of a TV show.
The FQ issues are like episode snippets between advertisement blocks.

I started reading OQ in 1981/2, it was at about issue 4. If memory serves it was 3 months between issues (or possibly 4...it was a long time ago Wink ) but it was always out more or less on time. I had a subscription because it was the easiest way to ensure getting it. I remember squirming with excitement waiting for the brown envelope to drop through my letterbox.

Now...not so much. You are absolutely right in all the points you made Embala, and you expressed it better than I could. I've been reading so long I'm just following for the sake of completion at this point, but FQ would never have captured my heart the way OQ did. It has no soul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:58 am

@Redhead Ember wrote:

But that's the thing; we don't know how they reacted when she first arrived. They might have been torn about by grief. Her death might even have spurred them to make sure the comatose couple* made it to the Palace alive, even if it was without the aid of a pod they could still send out a bunch of Go-Backs - or even Windkin and Aroree - to fetch them.
However, her death could've happened up to ten years ago, so they've had plenty to focus on the positive; the fact that her spirit did make it.
Take Pike, on the other hand, just a few days after losing his (second) lifemate he was being all "My lifemates live."



*Hey, Embala! There's a couple for your calendar!
Bit late, though...


Give me a break. How are we supposed to assume what we *don't* see between panels? I mean, storytelling lets you fill in the blanks, but not to this extent. That's taking a whole lot for granted in terms of readership...hey guys, MAYBE we grieved the death of this elf or not...maybe her death spurred us to save this one couple from death and put them in wrapstuff. The storytelling has been nebulous at best in FQ and requires a lot of *faith* in that case, which I don't consider very fair.   I'm really glad you have it. But I don't take anything for granted in terms of storytelling as a rule, and it's a rule for writing that I believe needs to be followed.
However, like I said, this elf's death is so focused on I think because she's one of very few new ones we've seen in FQ so far. If she was one of many, this would not be an issue.

The problem isn't just that the writing is sloppy, it's actually more of the narrative changing altogether in an unrecognizable way...there was a very distinct narrative and dialogue in EQ that we're all familiar with and have become familiar with over the years, even between issues in the 90s. It was weakened considerably when handed to others, but you could see how they tried to mimic it at the very least, but you could still tell when it was happening. Now it's very different. And no I don;t mean the story is different, I mean the NARRATIVE is different...like the way the story itself is being told has changed in the sense of how the characters themselves are even talking and it's very abrupt. I don't believe this has to do with years passing or the wolfriders changing or whatever. It's an actual change as in the writing itself is different and no longer as distinct and recognizable as it was in the past. It's glossing over a lot and turning into some soggy mess of fruitcake new agedom that I really don't like. I don't like the spiritual overtones because they're very heavy-handed, they're no longer alluding to certain perspectives so much as ramming down down your throat. Good/Light acts and looks like THIS , dark/bad acts like THIS. The grey is gone, and despite its occasional fluffiness, EQ was always a bit grey about everything and that was part of its charm for me at least . This is like born again convert bullshit, I'm sorry.
I will keep reading because I am committed. But I will also keep complaining probably Razz

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:28 am

@Redhead Ember wrote:
Because it's not important to the overall storyline. In fact, they didn't even need to show us the dead female, or the comatose couple, they could've opted to only introduce Dre-Ahn.

Believe me, I wish they had. It would have simplified things immensely.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:10 am

@Zadzi wrote:
Give me a break. How are we supposed to assume what we *don't* see between panels? I mean, storytelling lets you fill in the blanks, but not to this extent. That's taking a whole lot for granted in terms of readership...hey guys, MAYBE we grieved the death of this elf or not...maybe her death spurred us to save this one couple from death and put them in wrapstuff. The storytelling has been nebulous at best in FQ and requires a lot of *faith* in that case, which I don't consider very fair.

Right from the beginning there has been several "maybes" and speculations.
Who was Clearbrook's daughter? What happened to her?
Who was/were Rain's lifemate(s)?
Did Kahvi have other children before Vaya?
Who exactly is 'the Baker'?
Why did Two-Spear and Willowgreen give their daughter the decidedly non-Wolfridery name of Kahvi? (Had they just discovered the joy of coffee?)

Maybe the importance of the dead female is not to show who she was or how she died, but to show what kind of person Reef is. It was Reef who came up with the "Then she did make it." notion. Perhaps it was thrown in there to show that Reef had come to look at the bright side of Things; sure, her body is dead, but her spirit lives and had made it to the Palace. It might even have been the same mindset that made Reef go "I wasn's broken, I was unfinished."
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:40 am

@Redhead Ember wrote:
Right from the beginning there has been several "maybes" and speculations.
Who was Clearbrook's daughter? What happened to her?
Who was/were Rain's lifemate(s)?
Did Kahvi have other children before Vaya?
Who exactly is 'the Baker'?

All questions are not equivalent.  

A good story invites you into the lives of its characters.  It allows you to step into their shoes and understand the world from their point of view. The questions you listed all have to do with story/character "texture." The EQ universe went deeper than the story that appeared on the page. The fact that I don't know anything about Clearbrook's daughter doesn't pull me out of the story or make me feel like I don't understand Clearbrook. It actually makes her character deeper, more sympathetic, more rich, and it's fertile ground for my own creative engagement in the story.

To offer my own version of what I think others are already saying--Final Quest alienates me as a reader.  It does not invite me into its world--it keeps me at a distance with herky-jerky pacing and superficial dialog.  It does not deepen EQ world-building--it undermines previously appealing elements.  It does not allow me the pleasure of interpretation and imaginative engagement--it dictates what I should think about the characters and the lessons I should draw from their experiences.  

At base, I agree with you.  The identity and fate of the dead female does not matter to the story.  Final Quest isn't about her and it doesn't need her.  It needs Dre-Anh, so he's the one we get to see. But the way she is mentioned and the way the other characters talk about her fate does not endear them to me, nor does it make me more interested in their stories.  Quite the opposite.  When Sunstream mentions her so casually and Reef says "Then she did make it,' all I think is--wow, I can't sympathize with these aliens.  I can't relate to them and their perspective. If death is such a nonissue, why should I give a hoot what happens to any of them?  The easiest thing would be if the humans just killed all the Wavedancers.  Then they'd make it to the palace and live in bliss forever, the way Holy Timmain wants them to!

And please don't say, well, the elves have always been aliens.  I know.  I've been reading EQ for 2 decades.  I understand that they are, literally, alien.  But up to this point, they've also been characters I can commit to and care about and identify with, and thanks to Final Quest they've been stripped of all their (for lack of a better word) humanity.  The only thing that keeps me reading is my inalienable goodwill towards characters I've lived with for most of my life, even if they're pod-person versions of themselves.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:45 pm

@Redhead Ember wrote:

Who was Clearbrook's daughter? What happened to her?

Background filler for secondary characters who were having a day in the limelight. Not important, but did provide emotional motivation for said characters.

Quote :
Who was/were Rain's lifemate(s)?

Posthumous character, whose backstory was largely(and wisely) left blank. Provoked reader questions, but satisfyingly remained enigmatic.

Quote :
Did Kahvi have other children before Vaya?
Not important to the narrative, question neither brought up in narrative, nor answered.

Quote :
Who exactly is 'the Baker'?

Sight gag character, needs about as much backstory and motivation as Daffy Duck.

Quote :
Why did Two-Spear and Willowgreen give their daughter the decidedly non-Wolfridery name of Kahvi? (Had they just discovered the joy of coffee?)

Part of the focus of Two Spear's insanity is on being more like the high ones, it's not unlikely that he'd give his child a name in their style. Tbh, tho, this isn't one of warp's shining moments. The potholes in that story rival FQ's, but unlike FQ, it's got emotional depth to back it up.

Quote :
Maybe the importance of the dead female is not to show who she was or how she died, but to show what kind of person Reef is. It was Reef who came up with the "Then she did make it." notion. Perhaps it was thrown in there to show that Reef had come to look at the bright side of Things; sure, her body is dead, but her spirit lives and had made it to the Palace. It might even have been the same mindset that made Reef go "I wasn's broken, I was unfinished."

Maybe, but most likely it was put in there to shut up the readers who were saying, "All this build up, and mystery, for the Go Backs, and four loners?"
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:04 pm

@Wisp wrote:
The easiest thing would be if the humans just killed all the Wavedancers. Then they'd make it to the palace and live in bliss forever, the way Holy Timmain wants them to!

But they've chosen this World (well... the WoTM) over the Palace and the stars.
It's never been implied that the elves would just go out and commit mass suicide in order to 'get to the Palace'. Sure... some might become a tad suicidal - I'm looking at you, Krim - but the majority of them still prefer life in the flesh. The only difference is that they know that death is not the end, which allows them to accept the passing of others with - in time - quiet faith in the knowledge that "She did make it."
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:51 pm

I can't help but love how you defend your EQ, Redhead - fiercely and patient and inventive. Keep this passion, young chieftess. Ember <- imagine adult emoticon here

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:07 pm

@Redhead Ember wrote:
But they've chosen this World (well... the WoTM) over the Palace and the stars.

I hear you, and I totally agree with you on an intellectual level. What's missing for me--what's actively being undermined in FQ--are stakes.

The core drama in FQ is the tension between a life of spirit (i.e. the palace) and a life of flesh (i.e. the WoTM with all its attendant risks). Wendy and Richard are asking whether the smaller truth can coexist with the larger one and whether both deserve equal respect. I honestly don't know where they're going to come down on the issue, although Timmain, the mouthpiece of enlightenment, was willing to risk Cutter's sanity to ensure all elves a "swift and sure departure" from the WoTM.

While spirit vs. flesh works as a philosophical debate, as a plot driver it's pretty inert.

Why? Because even the most physical, embodied elves (like Krim, for example,) seem to take to life as a spirit very readily. Shortly after she dies, Krim's spirit tells Pike that the afterlife is "so much more." The Wavedancers love life in the ocean and don't want to live in the palace. Fine. If they do die, however, I don't think we'll see any of them complaining about the situation. Based on everything we've been told, life in the palace--whether as spirit or immortal elf--is pretty fabulous. And every elf ends up there eventually anyways, either by choice (Sun Folk, Moonshade) or by death (nameless female, Lutei, Crescent).

If I were writing FQ, I would build in some devastating stakes for the characters we most care about. For example, what if when Wolfriders die, they are forever bound to the WoTM. They can hang out in the palace as long as it's on planet, but they can't travel with it. That way, when friends and lovers disagree over life on the planet or life in the palace, they're facing permanent separation. If you wanted to raise the stakes even higher, you could say that a mortal Wolfrider's spirit dissipates into the natural energy field of the WoTM. That way, even if the palace returns for a visit someday, immortal palace dwellers would never be able to reconnect with departed mortals. High emotional stakes.

As it stands now, even if Strongbow keeps his wolfblood and dies of old age, his spirit will eventually fly free. Moonshade will be able to commune with him in the palace, just like she communes with Crescent. Apparently, this is satisfying for her. Eventually, she'll probably move on to a new lifemate with Strongbow's blessing, and that will be that. I have yet to see any evidence that the spirits of mortal Wolfriders cannot travel through space with the palace. Wouldn't that be a cause for concern for Moonshade, after all?
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:22 pm

I started to doubt my memory on the nature of the Wolfrider afterlife and did a little digging.  This is a helpful recap from Ask Elfmom: Get an afterlife, elf style

Sounds like there are only advantages to dying with wolfblood, and certainly nothing to stop dead Wolfriders from meeting up with loved ones in the palace posthumously. It's like a vacuum suck for drama.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:41 pm

Wisp, I absolutely agree with you about the stakes in FQ being far too low.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:50 pm

I also agree with the stakes being too low and Wisp's argument makes perfect sense to me. The storyline is a stretched rubber band, there's no real suspense - Cutter will of course be 'okay' in the end.
I also agree to the Moonshade/Strongbow dilemma. I always thought he'd just end it all and then wind up in the palace and that's that. No real risk there.

And I still don't know what the hell Moondshade is really doing in the palace. What do they all DO in there? It's never really discussed or shown besides all of them standing around in a circle. It's not mysterious even, it just looks boring.

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:09 am

@Wisp wrote:
If I were writing FQ, I would build in some devastating stakes for the characters we most care about.  For example, what if when Wolfriders die, they are forever bound to the WoTM.  They can hang out in the palace as long as it's on planet, but they can't travel with it.  That way, when friends and lovers disagree over life on the planet or life in the palace, they're facing permanent separation.  If you wanted to raise the stakes even higher, you could say that a mortal Wolfrider's spirit dissipates into the natural energy field of the WoTM.  That way, even if the palace returns for a visit someday, immortal palace dwellers would never be able to reconnect with departed mortals. High emotional stakes.  

These are brilliant ideas that would've given the "spirit vs. flesh" dilemma a lot more teeth. The second is an interesting riff on the "elves have no souls" thing you see in some folklore.

At one point, after the "Timmain is Cutter" reveal but before the next issue came out, IIRC there was speculation that ALL the Wolfriders might be reincarnated High Ones (or chunks of reincarnated High Ones?). Had that turned out to be true, that might have been another way of upping the stakes -- when any individual Wolfrider died, it's true that they would live on, but they wouldn't be *themselves* anymore in very important ways.
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sun girl

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:28 am

@ErinC1978 wrote:
...there was speculation that ALL the Wolfriders might be reincarnated High Ones (or chunks of reincarnated High Ones?). Had that turned out to be true, that might have been another way of upping the stakes -- when any individual Wolfrider died, it's true that they would live on, but they wouldn't be *themselves* anymore in very important ways.

Interesting idea, but it couldn't apply to all Wolfriders since we've seen the spirits of One-Eye, Joyleaf and Bearclaw all being their individual selves (at least not without writing in a new rule that spirits can take on different appearances too).
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wingthing

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:55 am

@Zadzi wrote:
I also agree with the stakes being too low and Wisp's argument makes perfect sense to me. The storyline is a stretched rubber band, there's no real suspense - Cutter will of course be 'okay' in the end.
I also agree to the Moonshade/Strongbow dilemma. I always thought he'd just end it all and then wind up in the palace and that's that. No real risk there.

And I still don't know what the hell Moondshade is really doing in the palace. What do they all DO in there? It's never really discussed or shown besides all of them standing around in a circle. It's not mysterious even, it just looks boring.

If there were clear advantages depicted to hanging out in the Palace all the time, then Wolfriders and their whole "Way" of undue suffering and primitivism wouldn't seem nearly so appealing and noble. Just like being a spirit is supposed to be SOO much cooler if you're a Wolfrider. Because otherwise Wendy couldn't justify all these elves' refusal to be purged from what is essentially a terminal illness.
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