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 The Elfquest Show Episode 21

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sun girl

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:40 pm

Lunakat wrote:
And aren't the mind, attitude and experiences of a real human being more interesting than fiction?

Some people think so, certainly. If that's what I personally was looking to read, I'd go to the non-fiction section. This feels more like a bait-and-switch.
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wingthing

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:03 pm

Lunakat wrote:
"No elf must die" was never a hard and fast rule. It was just a philosophy that Cutter came up with for himself on the bridge of destiny, when he decided to save Rayek.

Except that Rayek seemed equally astonished when Aroree feared returning to Blue Mountain during Siege, because she was afraid sed be killed. His reaction was "oh, don't be silly, elves don't kill other elves" and then Strongbow had his whole breakdown after he killed Kureel. It may have been a fairly recent Cutter inspired "rule" but it seemed to take on almost Ten Commandment overtones in the SaBM era.

...then Strongbow killed Kureel and suddenly Cutter is contemplating murder because he can't win a debate with Rayek. /sarcasm
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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:08 pm

sun girl wrote:
Lunakat wrote:
And aren't the mind, attitude and experiences of a real human being more interesting than fiction?

Some people think so, certainly. If that's what I personally was looking to read, I'd go to the non-fiction section. This feels more like a bait-and-switch.

Fair enough.

@Wingthing-- I think it was said that "in the known history of two elf tribes," no elf had ever killed another. But it was never said that there was a law against it. It was just unheard of. And "no elf must die" is different than "no elf must kill another elf"-- Cutter was saving Rayek from falling off a bridge due to his own foolish actions. He could have just let him fall and had the way to Leetah be free-- but he knew that it was wrong, and that there were too few surviving elves in the world for that to be okay.

Regarding the Rayek incident-- Rayek was going to wipe out his entire race. It was a very rational lesser of two evils scenario. Along the lines of "would you kill Hitler as a baby if you had the chance"-- most people say they would kill Hitler as a baby.

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wingthing

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:14 pm

Hence the /sarcasm tag Wink
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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:16 pm

Ah

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kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:24 pm

Lunakat wrote:
sun girl wrote:
Lunakat wrote:
And aren't the mind, attitude and experiences of a real human being more interesting than fiction?

Some people think so, certainly. If that's what I personally was looking to read, I'd go to the non-fiction section. This feels more like a bait-and-switch.

Fair enough.

@Wingthing-- I think it was said that "in the known history of two elf tribes," no elf had ever killed another. But it was never said that there was a law against it. It was just unheard of. And "no elf must die" is different than "no elf must kill another elf"-- Cutter was saving Rayek from falling off a bridge due to his own foolish actions. He could have just let him fall and had the way to Leetah be free-- but he knew that it was wrong, and that there were too few surviving elves in the world for that to be okay.

Regarding the Rayek incident-- Rayek was going to wipe out his entire race. It was a very rational lesser of two evils scenario. Along the lines of "would you kill Hitler as a baby if you had the chance"-- most people say they would kill Hitler as a baby.

I wouldn't kill baby Hitler. I'd give him art lessons and a swift kick in the pants.

Maybe Rayek needs some art therapy.
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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:18 am

I'd kill baby Hitler.

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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:18 am

Rayek def needs art therapy.

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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:10 am

Ok-- listening to part 2 of Elfquest podcast. I'm loving Ryan this time around. (his name IS Ryan-- right? Fellow Elfquest Ubergeek? I am so bad with names.)

He said that art -- visual art and storytelling-- is a conversation between the creator and the viewer. I think I was just having that argument with Richard when he shut the forum down. So-- yay, Ryan-- you agree with most important contemporary critical thinking-- but if you ask Richard Pini, he would probably tell you no.

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:40 am

Lunakat wrote:
"No elf must die" was never a hard and fast rule. It was just a philosophy that Cutter came up with for himself on the bridge of destiny, when he decided to save Rayek.

I always figured it's "No elf must die, as long as there's any way to save them!"


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sun girl

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:20 pm

Exactly, Redhead Ember. Any way to save them... like picking them up in a pod before they get killed on their way to the Palace after we deliberately summoned them to it. Which is why it feels like a kind of moral code the elves (not just Cutter) used to observe has been abandoned. Because Timmain has become extremely shady and possibly a liar. Argument comes full circle, boom Smile
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:21 pm

I don't think any elves besides Cutter ever actually said that.

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sun girl

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:30 pm

Lunakat wrote:
I don't think any elves besides Cutter ever actually said that.

I know! I know that! Jeez! So what if no other elf has ever said those exact words before! Does that mean every elf on Abode besides Cutter thinks it's just fine and dandy to let their fellow elves die? Do the WR's not basically take Cutter's word as law?

And even if it is only Cutter who thinks elfin lives should be saved when possible... was he not around when the dead elf's spirit got to the Palace? Did he not have any moral quandary over allowing that to happen on his watch?
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wingthing

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:50 pm

Lunakat wrote:
I don't think any elves besides Cutter ever actually said that.

Not in this exact words, Luna, but what I think we're all trying to say many elves have/had a similar code or belief that killing other elves or causing their deaths is a BIG deal.

Limiting solely to the Blue Mountain Cycle:

Rayek: http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=SABM/SABM05&p=7

Strongbow: http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=KOBW/KOBW01&p=11

Leetah: http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=KOBW/KOBW01&p=12
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:18 pm

That I would agree with-- that there is a general aversion to it

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:40 am

Gloomberry's pet theory is that the current WP is really a skinwalker - hence the story being so off kilter, rules being thrown out, retconning etc. she reckons that it's being done by a different entity than the one who created OQ...

That's kind of a typical Gloomberry theory actually. Supernatural creatures everywhere lol
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:16 am

Stargazer wrote:
Gloomberry's pet theory is that the current WP is really a skinwalker - hence the story being so off kilter, rules being thrown out, retconning etc. she reckons that it's being done by a different entity than the one who created OQ...

That's kind of a typical Gloomberry theory actually. Supernatural creatures everywhere lol

I find the idea that the "Canon creator's doing something I don't like, it must be an alien!" rather insulting. It's one of the worst aspects of fandom.

I don't like every change WP has made. I don't dispute her right to do it.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:26 am

sun girl wrote:
Exactly, Redhead Ember. Any way to save them... like picking them up in a pod before they get killed on their way to the Palace after we deliberately summoned them to it. Which is why it feels like a kind of moral code the elves (not just Cutter) used to observe has been abandoned. Because Timmain has become extremely shady and possibly a liar. Argument comes full circle, boom Smile

But we don't really know if there was any way to save the elf who died on her way to the Palace. It might seem like a case of just fly pods out to get everybody who wants to answer The Call, but that's the thing; Wants to answer! There are several of even the established characters who've chosen not to answer The Call.
I think Sunstream simply knows where every elf is, not whether or not they'd want to answer The Call, and I don't think anybody is actually able to answer it, in the sense of sending back to Sunstream. Sure, Sunstream and Skywise could fly pods out to everyone and ask them if they'd want to go to the Palace, but what if there are some who really don't want to be found? Those Tree-Elves sure don't look like they'd appreciate if a shiny thing suddenly appeared in the midst! Worse; what if there are some who - like Cutter - rejects the Bigger Truth so greatly that going for them in a pod would kill them? Would be kinda bad if Sunstream and Skywise went to get a Group of elves and:

"Hello! We've come to WHOOOOOOOOOOOOPS!"
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:41 am

Davrille wrote:
Stargazer wrote:
Gloomberry's pet theory is that the current WP is really a skinwalker - hence the story being so off kilter, rules being thrown out, retconning etc. she reckons that it's being done by a different entity than the one who created OQ...

That's kind of a typical Gloomberry theory actually. Supernatural creatures everywhere lol

I find the idea that the "Canon creator's doing something I don't like, it must be an alien!" rather insulting. It's one of the worst aspects of fandom.

I don't like every change WP has made. I don't dispute her right to do it.

Well, it was *supposed* to be tongue in cheek. Nobody is disputing WPs right to do what she wants, it was just Gloomberry making a joke. I shared it because I *thought* people would have a sense of humour.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:01 am

That's a good point, Ember.

Yeah, Dayvrille-- that was pretty much a joke. Lol. As far as having a 'right'-- that's sort of a non- statement. Everybody has a right to tell any story they want-- as long as they aren't making money off of someone else's copyrighted materials or slandering someone. It doesn't mean that we have to agree they are telling a good story. I have a right to write the worst Mary Sue fanfic you've ever read-- because why not? But that doesn't mean you don't have the right to critique it.

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kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:45 pm

And as consumers, we have the right to consume actively, rather than passively, and to examine content as it exists in the context of our culture.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:52 pm

Exactly, Kathleen! As consumers-- we are just gonna do that! It's only natural.

Stephanie Meyer had a right to write Twilight and someone else had a right to write 50  Shades of Gray. And they published then. So lots of people read them and gave their opinions-- positive and negative. Because that's what happens when you publish something-- you put it out for public consumption and you get some public opinion. I also have a right to stick my finger up my nose in a restaurant-- and other people have a right to ignore me, clap, or tell  me how disgusting that is.

So what does it mean to say 'They have a right to tell their story their way?' Well, sure-- but so what? So does everyone and anyone. That doesn't make us exempt from feedback.

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:59 pm

@Redhead: Great point! It makes me think of koala bears: supposedly completely wild ones can die of fright if they run into something outside of their experience. Dont know if thats a myth, but your line reminded me of the snippet I read somewhere.

But it also reminds me that WP hasnt evolved her worldview on time travel completely. I know that, within the context of the story, some elves would be gun shy about using the Palace's time travel feature, but logically, if an Elf died in the quest to get to the Palace (especially in search of a better life), they could sneak a pod back a moment before and snatch them at the last moment. To a degree, all they are changing in history is the outcome of whether or not an elf died on their way there. That line about not using thr palace to collect everyone thst wanted to come never made sense to me.

...Elf decides to answer the call and has an epic adventure with the family in tow, and watches in horror as exposure, starvation, and conflict with humans kills off one family member after another... then dies himself...

POOF their spirit shows up at the palace.

"Where am I?"

"The Palace of the high ones! Its super awesome, we have a buffet, free wi-fi, private rooms, and get this, if you want a room, you can make it into anything you want, any temperature, any view, alone or with others... and get this, the palace can go anywhere and any time we want!"

"...uh... well, thats all nice.. but Im dead now, so I dont need any of those comforts... woulda been nice if you cojld have PICKED UP MY FAMILY BEFORE THEY ALL DIED HORRIBLY!!!"

"Oh, that... yeah, we could have, but decided for no particular reason that it was a bad idea."

"Coming here was a bad idea: we had a home, food, warmth, and had never met humans before a buzzing in our heads nearly drove us mad and told us to come here. Now we are dead. Thanks. ...oh, and if you change your mind, please do go back and save us, or at least my family: death itself was nothing compared to the suffering they endured needlessly."

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:15 pm

Stargazer wrote:
Gloomberry's pet theory is that the current WP is really a skinwalker - hence the story being so off kilter, rules being thrown out, retconning etc. she reckons that it's being done by a different entity than the one who created OQ...

That's kind of a typical Gloomberry theory actually. Supernatural creatures everywhere lol
*chuckles*


Thinking about it seriously - 60 year old Wendy Pini IS another person than 25 year old Wendy Pini.
Other life experiance, other points of view, other influences ... 30 years can make a big difference.

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:16 pm

Lunakat wrote:

So what does it mean to say 'They have a right to tell their story their way?'

Just what I said.

Fandom - -and I mean fandom as a whole, not singling out EQ fandom -- has a bad habit of using critique of a work as a means to critique the creator on a personal level because they don't like the way the story is going. If you were in Harry Potter fandom when Half-Blood Prince came out, you may or may not have seen the comments about wishing JKR had died in childbirth so someone's ship wouldn't have been destroyed.

Comments about Wendy have Alzheimer's, mental illness, etc, are along those lines. They're uncalled for, and yes, Virginia, I'm going to call them out when I see them .

You said: "That doesn't make us exempt from feedback." Ironic -- I gave Stargazer feedback about her post and got "I shared it because I *thought* people would have a sense of humour" because it wasn't the kind of feedback she wanted.






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