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 The Elfquest Show Episode 21

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sun girl

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:43 pm

@Redhead Ember wrote:
By this time I'm not even sure what point you were/is trying to make.

Wow. How gracious of you to say so.
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wingthing

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:07 pm

@Redhead Ember wrote:
No, I don't think it would've been simply a matter of flying around in pods, picking everyone - who wants to - up. For starters; flying around in pods would probably attract a lot of potentially hostile humans! If they need to ask first they can't just zoom right in, pick people up, and leave. They'd need to hover around for a bit.

Like... when Ember was captured by humans? And explicitly said "Save Teir!" but left herself out of the plea? And the Palace showed up anyway, Windkin screaming like a berserker at the top of his lungs and dodging bullets (okay, one bullet!) and half the town seeing evidence of elfin magic while the elves just hide behind the Palace shield and watch the mayhem unfold?

But Ember is a named character with a devoted fanbase. The random stranger elf is just window dressing.

I think it was a huge mistake to have that panel introducing a whole new elf and then dismissing her as "yeah, she died, it's sad." I would have much rather liked to see Skywise brooding over it - the life he *might* have been able to save  if Timmain and Savah hadn't stopped him. I would have much rather liked to see the dead elf spirit talk herself, instead of being literally silenced while the living chatter about her ghost like it's no big deal. I think its very likely Wendy simply included that panel as no more than a "Look, other elves are trying to come" explanation, but in being so casual about elfin death, it creates a huge cultural dissonance where some lives are *apparently* valued highly more than others.

I think that is also part of the major problem of FQ - so much is told and nothing is shown. So we're left wondering about all these loose threads.

In the end, for me, it comes down to this: Maybe they couldn't have saved this one elf... and that couple so traumatized they are in wrapstuff to recover. We don't know. What we do know is: they didn't even try!! They didn't even hold it up for debate. Timmain decided, it was so, and at least three suffering elves paid the price.
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sun girl

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:09 pm

Yes, all of that ^ is the point I was trying to make.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:19 pm

@wingthing wrote:
Like... when Ember was captured by humans? And explicitly said "Save Teir!" but left herself out of the plea? And the Palace showed up anyway, Windkin screaming like a berserker at the top of his lungs and dodging bullets (okay, one bullet!) and half the town seeing evidence of elfin magic while the elves just hide behind the Palace shield and watch the mayhem unfold?

It's entirely possible they figured the "If he dies, I die!" bit also worked the other way round*, so they needed to save Ember as well, in order to truly save Teir.
Besides; she didn't say "Save him! But just leave me right here." Sure, she didn't tell them to save her as well, but she didn't tell them not to either. It's possible Sunstream simply figured that by the time she asked for help she was a dying Ember.

*Honestly. I think that was probably Ember's biggest mistake during the whole thing. She was so focused on how she would die if Teir, but she never stopped to think that he might feel the same if she died.


@sun girl wrote:
@Redhead Ember wrote:
By this time I'm not even sure what point you were/is trying to make.

Wow. How gracious of you to say so.

Sorry... I'm not really sure if you're being sarcastic. I honestly was confused because most of your argument was how the unknown female's death was brushed off.
Then you mentioned how the result of The Call was just four people, which I pointed out wasn't technically true... then you seemed to think that me pointing how there were others answering The Call invalidated your earlier point. But... I wasn't trying to invalidate any point by pointing out that claiming that there were only four Call answeres wasn't true. Besides; if you remembered the others, why be all The grand result of it was just four elves!?


@Lunakat wrote:
Presumably the elves who showed up against all odds would be like the Wolfriders, Gliders and the Go Backs-- folks who really wanted to be there and were willing to sacrifice for it.

I wouldn't say the Gliders were willing to sacrifice for the Palace. They went into a trance and then got a mountain dropped on top of them.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:28 pm

@Redhead Ember wrote:
Besides; if you remembered the others, why be all The grand result of it was just four elves!?
Because it was only four NEW elves? And only one of them was shown. And NONE of their stories was told.
That's at least what makes the GREAT CALL disappointing for me.

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:31 pm

@ember-- Voll rallied his followers to fly to the Palace. It was his forgotten dream. He tried to recreate it in Blur Mountain-- and they certainly put out a lot of effort to do that -- then, when he was 'awakened', he the his all into an (admittedly ill advised) journey to get there-- and dies because he was so naive. The Gliders ultimately got to the palace through mass suicide-- which is also sort of a sacrifice.

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:32 pm

Ember , I think, is pointing out that there were five elves, not four. But what's the difference? That's still a pretty measly number.

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sun girl

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:53 pm

@Redhead Ember wrote:
Sorry... I'm not really sure if you're being sarcastic. I honestly was confused because most of your argument was how the unknown female's death was brushed off.
Then you mentioned how the result of The Call was just four people, which I pointed out wasn't technically true... then you seemed to think that me pointing how there were others answering The Call invalidated your earlier point. But... I wasn't trying to invalidate any point by pointing out that claiming that there were only four Call answeres wasn't true. Besides; if you remembered the others, why be all The grand result of it was just four elves!?

Sorry, yes, I was being sarcastic. I really had two points about my reactions to the same panel - first that the unknown female's death was brushed off and that felt really callous and out of character. Second that the underwhelming response to Sunstream's Call was kind of bad storytelling. And the fact that the Go-Backs and Aurek and Rayek and Winnowill answered the Call doesn't make it any less underwhelming for me as a reader, because they're established characters who already know the Palace is around, so contacting them didn't bring anything new to the table. It really felt like you were nitpicking me by bringing them up, because their existence doesn't speak to my issue with so few elves answering, which is that it's boring and makes all the build-up to the Call feel like a joke.

edit: aha, yes, what Embala said too.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:03 pm

@Embala wrote:
Because it was only four NEW elves? And only one of them was shown. And NONE of their stories was told.
That's at least what makes the GREAT CALL disappointing for me.

The Go-Backs, sans Venka, were new elves as well. Sure, not a new tribe but new individuals.
Besides; if the cover for issue 14 is anything to go by we're gonna meet those Tree Elves really soon insofar as late March can be considered soon... and I personally think it's much cooler to see what happens when someone who doesn't want to be found is found, much more conflict.


@sun girl wrote:
It really felt like you were nitpicking me by bringing them up, because their existence doesn't speak to my issue with so few elves answering, which is that it's boring and makes all the build-up to the Call feel like a joke.

Sorry.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:18 pm

@Lunakat wrote:
Ember , I think, is pointing out that there were five elves, not four. But what's the difference? That's still a pretty measly number.

How sad.... Sad
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:28 pm

@Lunakat wrote:
Ember , I think, is pointing out that there were five elves, not four. But what's the difference? That's still a pretty measly number.

No... I was pointing out that there was an entire tribe as well as some individuals. Sure, not a new tribe, (but still new individuals), and several of the answerers were known as well, but they still answered.
And I still think there are others than the ones we've seen who've made it. They're probably chilling in the Palace by now, possibly having an orgy with the Go-Backs.

Where'd you get the five rather than four elves from?
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:11 pm

Five including the dead one. Dr. Dre, the couple in wrap stuff, the dead person... Oh wait- that's it. You're right. There are just four. Well, that's sad. Oh no-- the fifth one is Aurek. I forgot Aurek.

Okay-- so one tribe that didn't show up (the fungus elves- right?) and five individuals who did. That's not much.

Cutter found three tribes the old fashioned way in half that time-- two within a year. But Sunstream trains all his life for this big moment-- and when it happens, waits ten years to get four people to show up. And it looks like the hidden tribe is going to be found by Cutter anyway. So what was the point?

Sunstream's whole career was pretty much a waste.

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:43 pm

Plus Rayek and Winnowill and Ekuar who came for like a day then left again. That's eight if you count Rayek/Winnie as separate. Plus the new individuals in the interchangeable homogenous mass of the Go-Backs, none of whom have gotten characters or stories either. Were there names? Have any of the new Go-Backs even gotten names?

(edit: oh wait, yes. There were a few guttural sounds I mistook for Venka clearing her throat that Wingthing assured me were meant to be names.)

I guess Sunstream can kind of count as having found the Wavedancers at least, right? Or did Cutter somehow get the credit for that too? I can't remember Discovery that well and I'm sure as heck not gonna reread it.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:51 pm

@Lunakat wrote:
Sunstream's whole career was pretty much a waste.

A-drukking-men!

A very small part of me is still holding out faint hope that maybe, just maybe, SOMETHING interesting involving Sunstream and his supposedly epic powers which he can never seem to use will unfold before the series wraps, but so far the plot seems to be going out of its way to sideline him.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:00 pm

@sun girl wrote:

(edit: oh wait, yes. There were a few guttural sounds I mistook for Venka clearing her throat that Wingthing assured me were meant to be names.).

Drinking

Although.... I think I initally mistook a snort of derision for a name. "They're naming their children *Chuh* now?? Well, that's a new standard of laziness... ohhh wait..." Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:19 pm

@wingthing wrote:
A very small part of me is still holding out faint hope that maybe, just maybe, SOMETHING interesting involving Sunstream and his supposedly epic powers which he can never seem to use will unfold before the series wraps, but so far the plot seems to be going out of its way to sideline him.

Nah, I don't think it'll happen. He can't be allowed to outshine Cutter. They practically lampshaded it in the comic.

Suntream: Father, I need your blessing and permission to do basically the only thing I've been training to do all my life! I don't want to achieve something and thereby have new readers get the idea that any character in this story is important other than you!

Cutter: Don't worry son. I'm about to be revealed to be a coincarnated High One, and in the gigantic ensuing drama fest, any achievement you make will be completely overshadowed and forgotten about.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:28 am

@wingthing wrote:
@sun girl wrote:

(edit: oh wait, yes. There were a few guttural sounds I mistook for Venka clearing her throat that Wingthing assured me were meant to be names.).

Drinking

Although.... I think I initally mistook a snort of derision for a name. "They're naming their children *Chuh* now?? Well, that's a new standard of laziness... ohhh wait..." Embarassed

But, but... Elven language is totally melodic and stuff Sad

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:47 am

JSYK, a lot of people find the English language guttural and harsh to the ear. I didn't think any of the names were ugly, just Go Back style, which is consistent with their culture.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Cutter being the focus of the story, he is, after all, the main character and Wendy's self insert. It's not where I would have gone, but then, very little in the recent storyline is.

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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:31 am

@kathleen3.0 wrote:
I don't think there's anything wrong with Cutter being the focus of the story, he is, after all, the main character and Wendy's self insert. It's not where I would have gone, but then, very little in the recent storyline is.

I too am never surprised to see Cutter be the focus. But moreso than usual FQ seems often to have gone out of its way to provide opportunities for, how shall I put it... kissing up to Cutter. Sunstream being afraid of stealing his dad's thunder, Skywise and Leetah apparently (oh lord it's so silly I find it hard to type) deliberately staying short (snarf) for him, and of course the TimTam reveal. Cutter is so very speshul and everybody is telling him so all the time lately.

Sigh, I'm always such a downer. What's the opposite of rose-coloured glasses? I think I have a pair stuck on my face.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:40 am

Yeah, the whole "gathering of Chiefs" seems to have had no other purpose than to allow everyone to worship Cutter and tell him how great he is.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:04 am

I don't think any of us are in any position to complain about someone being self-indulgent with their self insert.

And it is self indulgence. It's annoying, and it's actually terrible writing. It's vacuous and purposeless, and the kind of thing that Wendy's been doing since shards. But people have complaining about Cutter being the central character for literal decades now and it's really getting old. Cutter isn't a bad character. And honestly, thus far all his reactions have been IN character for him.

If I were writing Elfquest, I would never have done KOTBW. I would have stopped at the end of the OQ and moved generationally ahead with my story, made Suntop and Ember the focal point of the next series, then moved ahead again. We're supposedly 10 000 years in the future, but it still feels like we're stuck in the past, only populated with cardboard cut outs of characters instead of fleshed out, interesting ones. And no, I wouldn't have all this lauding for Cutter going on, it's not very in character for the elves, particularly non-Wolfriders. And the Wolfriders themselves have always been fairly casual towards their Chiefs.

Cutter isn't the problem here. The bad writing is the problem.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:18 am

@kathleen3.0 wrote:
Cutter isn't the problem here. The bad writing is the problem.

Oh, I absolutely agree with that. Cutter himself I only have the occasional incidental problem with, because as you say he's a decently developed character and probably the most consistently written one in the series.

The only thing I'll say in defence of self-indulgence with self-inserts is: I think it's more forgivable (or easier to overlook, or however you like to put it) in fan-works than it is in published works that are sold for money.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:49 am

I think I've figured out at least partly what the 'problem' is here.

You think it's underwhelming that Sunstream finally sends out his much expected Call, and... four completely-new-doesn't-belong-to-any-known-group elves turn up! Of which one dies before even turning up, and two others are in a coma; leaving just one - Dre-Ahn - to actually be an active part of the story.

I, on the other hand, think it would've been rather underwhelming if Sunstream had sent out The Call, and him and Skywise - or just Skywise - had then gone out and picked up everyone who wanted to go to the Palace, and "disconnected" everyone who didn't. Yay! End of that plot-line...
As it is now the plot-line with The Call is still in action, not as important as the Cutter going bonkers or the Warfleet attacking ones, but it's still there. There might be elves who're still on their way to the Palace, sure; ten years might seem like quite some time taking to get there, but maybe they're deliberately travelling at a slow pace. Instead of being all "We have to get there as fast as possible!" they're travelling with a mentality of "We'll get there in time." Some of them might already be nomadic, and if their wanderings take them towards the Palace; so be it.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:32 am

I don't mean to be rude, but when statements are bolded like that, it's very difficult for me to read them. My eyes keep being drawn to the bold statements, and skipping over the rest.

I think the decision not to show more new elves, and their reactions to the call was a poor one, but it would make sense to me, given the low population, and the lack of density, as well as their frankly ridiculous reproductive methods, that these are the only ones who could answer, and there's simply no one else left. At least, I hope this is what they're going for. The idea that the world overwhelmed the elfin race and they're now on the verge of extinction would be interesting to me.

But it really is underwhelming that, given the build up to Sunstream's powers and abilities, this is what we get. The Go Backs, a few nerdy loners, and four unknowns, one of whom is dead.

At the same time, these ridiculous tree elves are actually part of the call plotline, albeit by non-answer, and this(Cutter's madness) might actually be the way to bring them in. And we don't know that Dre Ahn's people are extinct, just that he's the one here(he might have been wandering for different reasons). Then the two elves might wake up and be from a thriving community(unless it's chot and jethel).
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PostSubject: Re: The Elfquest Show Episode 21   Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:27 pm

@Redhead Ember wrote:
Sunstream finally sends out his much expected Call, and... four completely-new-doesn't-belong-to-any-known-group elves turn up!

We can't be certain the three besides Dre-Ahn are completely-new-doesn't-belong-to-any-known-group, because we haven't met those elves. Wingthing shared with me her personal pet theory (which I kind of love) that the couple in wrapstuff are Door and Dodia. Maybe those crazy kids worked things out after all!
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