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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:10 pm

Oh I see! Yes- I agree!

One of them has to die, I think... Unless going into the palace was the dream.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:08 pm

@Startear wrote:
When the tribe split after the Two-Spear-Skyfire challenge, Two-Spears followers just left. Including Ice-Tooth, Skyfire's lovemate and Willowgreen, the only true healer. Despite Skyfire being badly injured.

When the challenges escalate to that point, I think it's just standard protocol to leave the looser. No matter the state they are in.

I always liked that protocol. I accept this is a thing Wolfriders do when it comes to leader-challenges. Leave the loser to die. Adopting it for a thing I'm trying to write.

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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:16 pm

Yeah- I mean- they did a lot of things that weren't pretty. Their whole back history is a violent mess full of inter-tribe conflict.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:23 am

@Zadzi wrote:
I know there've been scenes of a Strongbow-like character in Futurequest or whatever it's called, but I am not even sure it's him, really.

Yeah... There's been speculation about what could make Cutter go away in the Palace. Or if it's really him. But I would really like to know what could make Strongbow go away in the Palace!

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:08 am

@Zadzi wrote:
We don't know anything for sure about what Moonshade is doing. All that's being thrown out here is guesses.
We don't really know what any of the elves is doing with their lives. What are Wolfriders doing? Sometimes they hunt, but the rest of the time? What are Wavedancers doing? Swimming around and hiding in corals? Maybe we have indeed a better idea what the palace elves are doing (mastering the old magic) than what "ordinary elves" do.
I think the problem with the palace is, that it's a weird, yet boring, powered by dead elves new-age starship and it's hard to imagine why anyone would want to be near there.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:18 pm

The Palace could be like Stonehenge. The energies there can either draw people in or repel them.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:28 pm

Maybe depending on how connected to the mortal world of the abode they are-- vs the world and energies the palace came from. Maybe that's why Moonshade dropped her wolfblood in order to fully integrate into palace life?

And maybe that's why Shuna was so uncomfortable there. And why Cutter is as well-- while Skywise feels at home.

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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:28 am

Those who've been shown as least attached to the palace are apparently wolfriders due to their blood. Maybe Skywise is a throwback or something. Moonshade...well, it's a choice, I guess. She's the only other wolfrider that never showed interest in any of that stuff who removed her blood.
The wave dancers , I have no idea. I was thinking it was because they were about to be wiped out and made great red shirts but now I don't know.
And frankly, the go backs are also odd to have in the palace. What ARE they doing in there? I wanna see them all come out in preserver silks lmao. That would be weird. I know Venka's wearing it now etc.. But it's too bad like that one Norman Reedus go-back (was it Yif?) didn't survive. I'd have loved to see him in preserver silks....
The palace is like skin with a lot of lotion on it that gets absorbed and you have no idea what happened.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:35 am

Maybe the GoBa is are defending it? That's what they did the first time.

It seems pretty consistent- all elves except the Wolfriders feel good in the Palace. And yeah- Skywise has always been a throwback. Why else would he be so into the sky? He had a latent talent that couldn't manifest because it requires the Palace to be able to do it.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:37 am

That makes sense. They have a connection to this world that other elves don't. Maybe the less Wolfrider blood you have, the stronger your connection to the Palace. And Moonshade never struck me as particularly Wolfrider-ish in terms of feralness, just in terms of culture. And remember in hr dream? She carried a hide and rode a wolf, but she wore silk and faced upward into the sky. Iirc Strongbow looked down and wore leathers.

I just wish they had shown us her learning to turn the scroll, or fly the palace. Even as a montage.
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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:36 am

I always liked the idea of elves in the palace being latents who come into their true talents once they're there, but we've not seen it consistently.

I also never considered Redlance very wolfrider-ish either. It would be weird if he also gave up his blood too. Then Strongbow and Nightfall would hook up, which would be really weird.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:48 pm

@Zadzi wrote:
I also never considered Redlance very wolfrider-ish either. It would be weird if he also gave up his blood too.
He seems very much bound to the WoTMs tho ... he's just more into flora than fauna. ^^

@Zadzi wrote:
I wanna see them all come out in preserver silks lmao. That would be weird. I know Venka's wearing it now etc..
Well ... you've just made me realize a "bad moment" for one of my favorite characters! Venka's costume change ... I've disliked her in moth fabric at first view - especially the choice of color. "Didn't suit her at all!" was my inital reaction. And the more often I saw her this way the more repellant it felt for me. Alienatiing the character ... into a Palace ghost.

On a more serious level - her insensitive treatment of Two-Edge when she decided to return to Blue Mountain wasn't her brightest moment either.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:31 pm

I hate to say it, but I scarcely like any of the preserver silk clothes? it looks too fine, even uncomfortable?

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:43 pm

I figure Preserver silk is extremely wear-resistant and light, soft and smooth at the same time. No worries to damage it. Can be very comfortable ... unless you are incomfortable to look naked. ^^

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:06 pm

Strikes me more as fan-service.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:42 pm

@Embala wrote:

Well ... you've just made me realize a "bad moment" for one of my favorite characters! Venka's costume change ... I've disliked her in moth fabric at first view - especially the choice of color. "Didn't suit her at all!" was my inital reaction. And the more often I saw her this way the more repellant it felt for me. Alienatiing the character ... into a Palace ghost.

On a more serious level - her insensitive treatment of Two-Edge when she decided to return to Blue Mountain wasn't her brightest moment either.

All of Final Quest has been one bad moment for Venka. Bad fashion choices, ineffective leadership, her insensitivity towards Two-Edge... she is becoming less and less the Venka of KoBW and Shards.
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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Fri Mar 04, 2016 12:51 am

Yep, I agree with Wingthing and Embala. Venka is losing depth in this story...I realize FQ isn't 'about' her, but it's still done a disservice of being rather dismissive of whatever development she's had, thereby making her seem more dismissive herself. I guess it's an attempt to 'wrap up' her arc or whatever, but it's a kind of bland and milquetoast wrap-up.

Also, I've never been a big fan of preserver silks, they just seem like some kind of spa robe for a bunch of fairy princesses.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:12 am

I'd like them a lot more if they came in some different styles other than "clumsily tied sack dress transparent enough to show everything except nipples, apparently"

It's an insult to silk, frankly.
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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:30 am

I honestly don't see how Venka was being insensitive towards Two-Edge. The only thing she said to him before he lost it was "I'm sorry."
As for her comment about him being A slave to his own childish urges. It never struck me as meaning "Ugh! Could he just grow up already?" but more as meaning "Poor guy." She even defended him towards Cutter, and said that he could be a good leader of the Misfit Trolls.

Her dress? I really like the preserver silk dress + big ass sword combo! Besides, it's pretty clear it's not her everyday getup.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:25 pm

oxford dictionary definition of childish
1. Of, like, or appropriate to a child or to childhood; childlike.
2. With reference to a person who is no longer a child: not befitting maturity; puerile, foolish, silly.

Venka is rude when she calls his rage childish. Saying that someone would be a good ruler for a -literally- degenerated, brainless mob is also very degrading.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:03 pm

Calling someone childish is not the equivalent of expressing sympathy. That kind of assessment about Venka's character has more to do with her behavior in the past - and that statement is not the least bit compassionate.
I know when I call someone childish I'm thinking just grow the hell up, already.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:12 pm

Pretty sure Venka hasn't read the Oxford Dictionary.

The way I see it, by calling Two-Edge a slave to his own childish urges Venka acknowledged that Two-Edge, for reasons beyond(sp?) his own control, in many ways - despite his immense age - is still ruled by his here-and-now emotions. His behaviour is appropriate for a child, because he had his entire childhood destroyed. He never really got to be a child, and then grow up.
More than that, though, she also sees that despite all that he's still shining - she even calls him that - and that he has potential to become something great.

Besides; if Venka suggesting that Two-Edge becomes the leader of the Misfit Trolls is degrading, then so is Clearbrook and Treestump (and that unnamed Go-Back) suggesting that Picknose becomes their leader...


@Zadzi wrote:
I know when I call someone childish I'm thinking just grow the hell up, already.

But do you know that's what Venka was thinking?

Childish can also mean innocent. Which is what Two-Edge is. Despite all his schemings - literally engineering a war over several centuries - he's in many ways like an innocent child. He didn't plan that war to hurt people, but because he wanted to find how who he is.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:29 pm

Innocent is childlike. Not childish.

And really, do YOU know what Venka was thinking?

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:55 pm

I actually read Venka's assessment of Two Edge as sympathetic if blunt. She sees him for what he is-- brilliant but poorly matured. Of course he's childish. He throws temper tantrums and runs away when he gets upset instead of acting like an adult and talking about it. He started a war to dig ure himself out and played with people's lives like toys. He is self centered and impulsive and that's childish. And yes, he's innocent too- because he doesn't fully understand things-- because as intelligent as he is about mechanical things, he is not emotionally intelligent-- because he's a victim of his mother. And she's right that as long as he stays this way- he is a slave to his baser self. And it will always inhibit him.

But at the same time-- she acknowledges that he's a genius and capable of amazing things. It's not like she doesn't recognize both sides of him. And what's the point of being falsely polite anyway? He's not there anymore.

I think what Venka did wrong was not break the news to him more gently about the Palace. But speaking the truth about Two Edge is not a bad thing. He's a mix of greatness and terrible flaws.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:33 pm

No. I don't know what Venka was thinking, but I just chose to look at it with positive eyes; believing that she was thinking something good.
In order for a person to think that someone should grow up already, they - or their culture - need to have a specific age at which people are considered to be grownups, and I don't think the elves have that. For the elves - I think - a person is a grownup when he or she is mature. Whether that happens at the age of 17, or the age of 17,000 doesn't matter.

What were those childish urges that Venka was talking about? Could it be his urge never to return to Blue Mountain (even if "Blue Mountain" is actually the Palace) because he's still traumatised by what happened to him there? Could it be that what Venka means is that Two-Edge is still haunted by the shadows of his past?

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