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sun girl

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:28 pm

Okay, I don't think anybody (except Strongbow) ever said Leetah didn't have a right to her own decisions or feelings. The way I see it Rayek never acted like Leetah "owed" him lifemating, he never acted like she wasn't "allowed" to have other lovemates. He simply wanted her to emotionally commit to him. He loved Leetah, he knew she loved him and preferred him over her other lovemates (paraphrase of novelization, "I take most delight in you"? or something), and he asked for the commitment that he wanted.

Leetah wasn't even remotely a child at this point. Maybe she wasn't ready for their relationship when it began, but she had centuries to clarify the position. Put it in real world terms - if you were in a no-strings-attached relationship with someone and they repeatedly asked to marry you, wouldn't you be kind of be responsible for leading them on if you didn't tell them "we don't want the same things, so you're gonna have to be satisfied with less or find someone else"? Instead of basically going "tee hee, oh I don't know, maybe, keep having sex with me and showing off to impress me and maybe I'll come around one day".
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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:36 pm

Again, no one has said she owed him anything but honesty. If she didn't want to lifemate (which seems the case until Recognition forced her hand) then she should have said so.  She doesn't seem to have had the self-awareness or strength of character to do so. That's her failing in this as much as Rayek's possessiveness was his.

(Edit: Amen to what SunGirl said.)

Back on track to bad moments from favorite characters, how about Skywise's breaking of den-hide and reaching out to Aroree? For her sake, I'm a little glad he did but it had some pretty steep consequences, regardless of Windkin's opinion on it now.
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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:42 pm

I always thought that that incident showed a depth of feeling for Aroree that Skywise never really displayed again. Makes me feel a little sad that their relationship just kind of sputtered out. (By the way, was Forbidden Grove not a pretty stupid place to choose for a holt? Like, you're gonna settle at the foot of Blue Mountain? Really?)
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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:24 pm

I always thought Thiro's name used like that was to tell us, the readers, who this face is. XD

As for the Forbidden Groove Holt.... I mean like... it sort of made sense, in the way that it would be a place where there is a lot of food, and so there isn't much need to gather supplies for the coming winter. Even though canned hunting isn't the Wolfrider way, it worked out during the first season. Then Windkin was going to finish cooking, so they had to wait a little longer.

But I'm surprised they stayed after that? Even felt completely safe up until Aroree came? Moonshade comments that it was strange for her to not feel afraid, be able to create clothes that are beautiful, not just practical. Sure, the Wolfriders had a hiding system, and it's hinted it was mostly out of use but?

Then again, maybe they were planning to leave to another place as soon as Windkin and Dewshine was stronger, more able to leave when Aroree came along.

Or that they were planning to leave sooner but feared being spotted, and just figured: "hey, we haven't been spotted yet! Maybe we will just stay here, hidden but still more free of fear than we were back at Original Holt?"

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:53 pm

I'm with Startear on this - I also thought it was discussed that it was seen as a temporary place for winter and 'canned hunting' (good term!). I didn't realize they stayed as long as they had until it's been mentioned....yeah, kind of an odd choice to set up permanent camp.

On another note, I'm with Sungirl about the incident with Aroree showing up and Skywise breaking den hide... it did seem to hint at deeper feelings on his end. The way that relationship's been treated in the story is a bit disappointing.
I know Skywise always played around with a lot of elf maidens, but I really liked his pairing with Aroree more than any other...as opposed to that bobble-head, Ruffel, who was only redeemed for me in that very poetic death (probably my favorite FQ moment, and the other moment right before it when they were frolicking).


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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:22 pm

I think the appeal of the Forbidden Grove was that it was an area the humans actively avoided-- and it was full of easily accessible food. The old Holt had been like a war zone-- and here it was a safe suburb with a massive (and free!) grocery store. No wonder they were relaxed and wanted to stay.

I always did assume that Skywise had some stronger feelings for Aroree at that point than she had for him. I think it had been like that all along. But I think it was based on a misconception he had about her. Until she stole Windkin and revealed herself to be weak and needy-- she would have appeared to him as a someone much more sophisticated than him--  with a ability to fly (an ability he had always longed for). And, just like his mom-- just like Cutter in the Palace war-- she totally abandoned him/left him on his own in a dangerous situation. Of course he couldn't confront his mother (she's dead- and she was a victim anyway)-- and he couldn't confront Cutter (who had a legitimate reason for his actions)-- but he could confront Aroree and ask her for (what should have been an obvious answer): "why did you abandon me?" (Insert real and obvious reason- she was a coward who couldn't think for herself.)

Instead of answering him-- she begged him for help. Well-- he's the kind of person who is loyal to individuals over groups-- so he tried to help her. But he put his tribe in danger in the process. He did exactly the same kind of thing right after she stole Windkin-- instead of waiting around to see what the group decided to do... or communicate his intentions to them... he left on his own to go find Cutter and inform him. The rest of them were stuck trying to guess where he went.

Bad choices. Understandable- given his character... but bad choices all around.

I think his relationship with and feelings toward Aroree changed after that. Before that, he didn't really know who she was.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:25 pm

I always thought them choosing the Forbidden Grove had to do with it being a place the humans were scared to go near. Them being so near to Blue Mountain might just have fallen under some sort of 'danger allowed into their lives'-thing?
For me,Skywise reaching out to Aroree was just 1: wanting answers about the whole abandoned to the trolls and 2: him hoping for a shag.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:35 pm

That's a good point.

Kinda offtopic, but that begs the question, where did the Hoan-G’Tay-Sho hunt? I hardly doubt they hunted in the Forbidden Groove, as the preservers wouldn' have let them, so somewhere else?

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:39 pm

@manga wrote:
Again, no one has said she owed him anything but honesty. If she didn't want to lifemate (which seems the case until Recognition forced her hand) then she should have said so.  She doesn't seem to have had the self-awareness or strength of character to do so. That's her failing in this as much as Rayek's possessiveness was his.

She did say so. She said she wasn't ready for that over and over again.

I think it's very legitimate to know how you feel in the moment, but not feel you can predict what you will want in the future. How could she possibly say to him "I will never want this from you?" How could she know that? What she did say was "I don't want this now." That was very clear.

Rayek made the assumption, when they were both children, that she was destined for him. That's one heck of an assumption to make.

When I was a kid, I had a friend who did something similar. I met my best friend when I was ten--my family moved in across the street from his. He came over to say hi and meet us-- saw me, and just stopped in the doorway. We were just ten years old-- and he just stared for a moment, then gave me this totally innuendo laden greeting "Well, helloooo!" That's hilarious in retrospect. I'm sure my parents were amused. I had no idea what to do with it at the time.

We became best friends (or so I thought). I spent a lot of time hanging out with him. Then, one day, he organized a "romantic dinner" for just the two of us. I think we were 12 by then. I was completely blindsided. I had no idea what he was aiming for-- until he tried to put his arm around me. And I had to tell him I wasn't ready for that. He was upset-- but accepted it. I tried to be nice because I didn't want to hurt his feelings.

When I was sixteen-- I met my first boyfriend. My best friend was angry. He felt like he had waited around, done his time-- and I owed him. He also thought my boyfriend was beneath me. He gave this spiel-- "I'm smarter than he is. My parents are rich. Someday I'll inherit their money. I'm the best guy for you..." At sixteen, he was pulling this. His parents really were rich-- and he really was one of those bizarro genius kids (science-wise). He was even kind of cute. But he had no emotional maturity. He basically threw a temper tantrum because I didn't give him what he thought he deserved.

We are still friends. He had a child with another girl-- but he never did get over that rejection.
The question is-- what did I owe him? I gave him friendship and affection. I think I made out with him once or twice. But he wasn't entitled to date me or marry me just because he wanted to. My feelings mattered too. I had a right to feel differently, not feel as he felt and grow up and change and make different decisions. That's only natural.

Rayek met Leetah when she was a child. He laid claim to her as a child. She grew into a different person than what he expected. That's a natural and not uncommon thing. His feelings of rejection are not atypical given the circumstances-- but that doesn't mean she did anything wrong. It's just how life sometimes works. A mature person accepts that and moves on. Learning how to do that is part of growing up.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:42 pm

@Startear wrote:
That's a good point.

Kinda offtopic, but that begs the question, where did the Hoan-G’Tay-Sho hunt? I hardly doubt they hunted in the Forbidden Groove, as the preservers wouldn' have let them, so somewhere else?

There was a whole big forest around the Forbidden Grove- right? Cutter and Skywise led Nonna and Ekuar through it to get to Olbar's Tribe. I think Olbar's people were the closest humans to the Forbidden Grove. The Hoan-G'Tay-Sho just hung out around the mountain. There did seem to be a lot of forest surrounding the mountain as well.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:48 pm

Good points about Skywise/Aroree, Luna, I hadn't really thought about that angle of their relationship before. Though he was was always up for a shag, he never really trusted her on that level again after she took Windkin.

As to the Forbidden Grove, I was sort of joking, sort of not. Having all that wrapped meat and being "forbidden" to humans are both big advantages. It just seemed to me like the forest Cutter and Skywise discovered in book 2 was awfully big, they could have found a site for a holt that was more remote from the potential threats of Olbar's tribe, the Hoan-G'Tay-Sho and the Gliders while still being able to go on shopping trips to the Grove for meat if they really needed it. That close to Blue Mountain, and knowing that Winnie knew about the Grove, they should have guessed that she'd eventually mess with them again one day.

edit: also, I think some of us just see Leetah and Rayek's relationship too differently. I always saw her as enjoying having Rayek on a string, devotedly pursuing, never paying attention to any other maiden. My impression was that she encouraged that attitude and enjoyed the flattery and attention. Hence never giving him a straight "no". Leetah was quite a prideful character when we first met her, after all.
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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:11 pm

@sun girl wrote:
Good points about Skywise/Aroree, Luna, I hadn't really thought about that angle of their relationship before. Though he was was always up for a shag, he never really trusted her on that level again after she took Windkin.
Yeah- I totally agree. I don't think it was just about a shag. That didn't seem to me like something you do just to get laid. That was (I thought) kind of serious business. Though, I'm sure you're right that getting laid- or wanting to have a partner- was part of it.

Maybe some of it had to do with him being estranged from Cutter as well. Maybe he thought she would fill the gap for him.

Quote :
As to the Forbidden Grove, I was sort of joking, sort of not. Having all that wrapped meat and being "forbidden" to humans are both big advantages. It just seemed to me like the forest Cutter and Skywise discovered in book 2 was awfully big, they could have found a site for a holt that was more remote from the potential threats of Olbar's tribe, the Hoan-G'Tay-Sho and the Gliders while still being able to go on shopping trips to the Grove for meat if they really needed it. That close to Blue Mountain, and knowing that Winnie knew about the Grove, they should have guessed that she'd eventually mess with them again one day.

I don't think Winnie knew about the grove. Aroree searched "for days" to find preservers. Winnowil sent them away-- but I doubt she knew where they were or she would have told Aroree to just go there and get them.

Quote :
edit: also, I think some of us just see Leetah and Rayek's relationship too differently. I always saw her as enjoying having Rayek on a string, devotedly pursuing, never paying attention to any other maiden. My impression was that she encouraged that attitude and enjoyed the flattery and attention. Hence never giving him a straight "no". Leetah was quite a prideful character when we first met her, after all.
I agree with that too-- I totally also think she enjoyed the attention. But she never promised him anything more than what she gave or implied he was going to get more than what she gave. She just never absolutely said "no, never!" either-- but why would she? She was saying "not right now" because that was where she was at. She wasn't prescient or able to read the future.

He should have backed off and just let it be a casual relationship, if he were going to take her at face value. Because that's what she was offering him.

I can't think of a scene where she gives him any other message.

It just sounds as if people are saying she mislead him-- and I don't see that she did.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:36 pm

No, we're not saying she mislead him. (other than that obvious moment when we first met them.) She just wasn't straight with him.
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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:08 pm

How straight could she have been?

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:26 pm

Yeah, I agree? Sure, it might be my aro-ness showing but... If you don't know what you want out of the relationship, how much honesty can you show? Really?


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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:39 pm

Might just be me, but to me, Rayek seemed to have had a major obsession with her and seemed to think she belonged to him because they're both magic users. (At least that's how I read it when it comes to that HY issue)
I can't help but think you could could basically beat him into the ground with a club while screaming 'I DON'T WANT TO LIFEMATE WITH YOU' and he'll still come back the next day and ask for lifemating.
He has a history of being very obsessive and possessive ffs.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:19 pm

Rayek's song:


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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:20 pm

If you don't know what you want out of the relationship and the other person is very clear about what they want, then you should tell them that you don't know. He was up front about what he wanted. She was very not.

Rayek may well be the type to have come back even if she had said no but that is besides the point because she didn't. Like a gambling addict he kept coming back because sometimes he did "win."
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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:28 pm

@manga wrote:
If you don't know what you want out of the relationship and the other person is very clear about what they want, then you should tell them that you don't know. He was up front about what he wanted. She was very not.
She was pretty clear that she wanted something light and casual, I think. She kept saying it over and over again. There is a mid-space between cleaving into a person and not seeing them at all.

Quote :

Rayek may well be the type to have come back even if she had said no but that is besides the point because she didn't. Like a gambling addict he kept coming back because sometimes he did "win."
You guys are talking about sending him away or having him come back... But there was no where for them to go! They were all stuck together in the same neighborhood for 600 years! How do you even conceive of keeping someone, letting them go, staying or going-- when you are stuck being neighbors forever? As soon as Rayek realized he could leave-- he was out of there!

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:41 pm

That "he could leave" came from no longer being key to the Sun Folk's survival as much as from realizing it was possible. You can argue about how necessary he truly was but he felt responsible and would not have left under other circumstances.

And I don't think she was clear about what she wanted at all. If all you want is nice and casual, your response to "Will you marry me?" should be "I just want something nice and casual" not "Tee Her. Keep having sex with me and trying to impress me and maybe someday I'll say yes."
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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:26 am

I just went back and reread Hidden Years #9. She really does not lead him on. Rather- he is saying and thinking things like "it was my right to claim her" and "Leetah belonged to me." She is actually just doing her own thing. He kind of stalks her.

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:32 am

I don't think HY #9 covers enough time to prove or disprove the point. It leaves out his proposal (or whatever they'd call it) and her response.
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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:05 am

Omg this debate is going to go on well into the apocalypse rofl

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:57 am

Someone needs to start selling Team Rayek and Team Leetah t-shirts! lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Bad Moments from Favourite Characters   Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:36 am

I don't think any single person was to blame for what happened. Leetah was not at fault for being unsure about what she wanted from the relationship, she was at fault for straight up lying to Rayek about saying she would give him and answer.

@Startear wrote:
I always thought Thiro's name used like that was to tell us, the readers, who this face is. XD

Yeah, me too.
"Hey, look at this guy! He's super-duper important to Leetah and OMHO! HE WAS KILLED BY A ZWOOT!!!!!!!


@Lunakat wrote:
There was a whole big forest around the Forbidden Grove- right? Cutter and Skywise led Nonna and Ekuar through it to get to Olbar's Tribe. I think Olbar's people were the closest humans to the Forbidden Grove. The Hoan-G'Tay-Sho just hung out around the mountain. There did seem to be a lot of forest surrounding the mountain as well.

I'm pretty sure that's two different woods. In order to get from Olbar's tribe to the Forbidden Grove, Cutter and Skywise first had to climb Down the Death Fall - somehow - and then walk for a bit over the open landscape.
Also... they lead Nonna and Ekuar through the woods?


*Oh My High Ones.

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