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 Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)

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Leanan

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PostSubject: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:52 pm

You guys remember this?



It's from Siege at Blue Mountain.

At the time I read it, I thought Winnie was just making it up... that such a thing could not happen. Certainly she wasn't telling the truth - otherwise there would not be two souls in Rayek's body now... right? But did she know that such a thing could happen? Has it, perhaps, happened before? Or did she maybe glimpse some special vision of Timmain's choice in the Great Egg?

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:45 pm

Maybe if the current storyline was already planned then, it might be a nod in the direction of the reader.

It's weird Rayek fell so easily, isn't it? Is there any special connection between them two? Or isn't he just another victim of her?

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:02 pm

First time I read this I thought it meant that they were soul-siblings, much like Cutter and Skywise. Later I thought it meant that she snared him?

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:07 pm

I always thought she manipulated him-- and it seriously backfired on her

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:55 pm

Nah.
It's just her snaring him.
Creating a new tool.
She just made the mistake of snaring somebody who (iirc) already found her impressive, would naturally gravitate towards her and become obsessed with her.

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:19 pm

Here's a question:
Could Winnowill (knowingly) have lied? She was sending.

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:23 pm

She could have told a slanted truth

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:54 pm

I honestly think she either told the truth as he saw it, as she saw it, or she's one of the few who CAN lie in sending.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:22 am

@Startear wrote:
First time I read this I thought it meant that they were soul-siblings, much like Cutter and Skywise. Later I thought it meant that she snared him?

I totally read that as She shared him...

And I suppose Winnowill could lie while sending, maybe black-sending is not so much the truth as it's the truth, which best serves the senders purpose.

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:12 pm

I think I read in some at least semi-official text, that she was one/ is the only person, who can send lies. Maybe it was the compendium?

Edit: Couldn't Door send lies? And he said something like: "I learnt it from you, black snake"?

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:45 pm

I think she was speaking/thinking figuratively.

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:55 pm

Interesting ponderings here... I too seem to remember that it said somewhere that Winnowill can lie in sending. But I can't remember where.

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:46 pm

I always had a personal theory that Rayek and Winnowill recognized, but that she was too much of a control freak and just denied it, so she sort of 'lied' about it in sending. The look on his face just always screamed recognition to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:35 am

I could see that...

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:59 am

I feel she ensnared him too by the way, recognition or not. If you look a couple of pages earlier in the issue, just from his first sending to her in Blue Mountain, you can see her sussing him out completely from that one sending - personality, desires, all that - and then essentially springing a kind of hypnotic trap to disarm him. Yet I still feel they possibly recognized. Winnowill seems like the type to turn her perfect little nose up at recognition, and maybe views it as weakness or something 'beneath her' somehow, since it's pretty much blind instinct. She didn't deny it to Tyldak, maybe because she doesn't expect anyone to be as strong as she is, but I'm guessing she views it with some disdain. Think of how she used Dewshine's soul name. Recognition is just one more tool to exploit.

I'm not holding my breath that we'll have this tangle smoothed out in FQ. But it wouldn't surprise me that denying recognition has made her (and Rayek) even more 'sick' somehow.... on, like, a psychological level. Both of them spiraled out of control after meeting.

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:05 am

Wouldn't she have become pregnant then? I'm pretty sure they had sex right afterwards.
Unless - and that's a really horrible thought - she did become pregnant, gave birth while out on that rock, and then just... dumped the child into the water, drowning it. It's Winnowill we're talking about. She isn't exactly the doting mother type.

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:51 pm

This is Winnowill we're talking about.  I'm thinking that if it were true Recognition, she just suppressed ovulation or denied the zygote's implantation.  There's no way she'd need to wait until after birth to dispose of an unwanted child.  And, depending on how much we can count the stuff in "Rogue's Curse" as canon, she has undone conceptions in the past.

I did ask Richard once, many years ago, if this scene meant there was a baby Winnowill running around somewhere and his response was pretty definite in the negative. I know they love their red herrings but I'm inclined to believe it. If nothing else, it would have come up by now.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:34 pm

I'm inclined to agree with manga, and can't imagine Winnowill giving birth/getting or getting pregnant after that joining even if it was recognition. And Rayek probably would've sensed if there was a baby floating around.

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:37 pm

I agree. She wouldn't have even had to give birth to get rid of the baby. She could have just induced a miscarriage in herself very early on.

I don't where the idea that Richard and Wendy Pini are so into red herrings came from. There really are hardly any in any of their stories.

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:12 pm

Maybe Reef is Winnowill's baby, lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:23 pm

Luna, I think their reputation for red herrings comes more from their answers to our questions than to the actual stories.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:55 pm

@kathleen3.0 wrote:
Maybe Reef is Winnowill's baby, lol.


That would be awesome.

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:48 pm

Wouldn't Rayek notice if 'eye meets eye'?
And wouldn't Winnie want a potentially powerful magic user baby? She could at least use it as a weapon, like Kahvi did (or tried to) with Venka

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:58 pm

@Miss Gillespie wrote:
Wouldn't Rayek notice if 'eye meets eye'?
And wouldn't Winnie want a potentially powerful magic user baby? She could at least use it as a weapon, like Kahvi did (or tried to) with Venka

Don't rain on my parade Razz

No , I don't think Winnie would trust any other being with any powers, even one of her own. Looks like motherhood hasn't exactly been her strong suit. And I think she smacked Rayek down before he even came into that room , by hypnotizing him and therefor sort of confusing him.

I think it would be awesome if she was Reef's mom though. That's some great fan fic fodder right there.

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PostSubject: Re: Did Winnowill know? (probably spoilers)   Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:12 pm

Rayek DID notice - look at how gobsmacked he is in that scene - and it seems clear that Winnowill's words are a response to a question in Rayek's mind. I don't know if he deliberately sent it or Winnie winkled it out of his head, but I'm sure, based on that sequence, he somehow asked it.
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