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Sifra

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:16 pm

Yes, I agree that it's getting old. Why can't they just seperate, feel sad for a while and then move?

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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:57 pm

I think it's supposed to be filler maybe, I don't know. I'll just read your comics instead, Sifra, to make myself feel better about this whole thing. It's infinitely more entertaining!!

Moonshade was trying to show Strongbow something new she's learned but I don't really get what it is? Is it what they haven't shown, or did she just want to show him her new hair and how tall she is?

Also, wait....Strongbow ignored the palace call? I know some elves ignored it but I thought all the wolfriders heard it, and made a choice?

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Sifra

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:00 pm

I think she learned to shape her own body to be tall, and to grow her hair long? In the last comic she did not look like this, I can't imagine the elfs usually grow tall suddenly over night.

I think it is a good thing Strongbow ignored the palace call. Because appaerantly listening to it turns him green...

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:39 pm

@Wingthing wrote:
wanna write Strongbow's letter to an Agony Aunt? I'm sure Moonshade comes off just as bad from his POV. "Help, my wife's been sucked into a cult!" or the like
I want to read that too. Thank you for the laugh Wingthing ^^ They are stuck, those too. I'd like to see the rest of the tribe being completely fed up with them, like when Dart and Freetouch were laughting about it in FQ 3.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:47 pm

@Sifra wrote:
I think it is a good thing Strongbow ignored the palace call. Because appaerantly listening to it turns him green...

alien ... rofl

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:47 pm

they use fertiliser. It may explain the green.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:52 pm

Shocked ... rofl rofl rofl

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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:55 pm

BWAHAHAAHAHA!!!


Green with envy? I turn shades of green before i throw up. Or green with inexperience.
Also, the phrase green growing things always disturbed me because it sounds like something you'd need to go to the doctor for ASAP

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kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:54 pm

I really need people to stop acting like this is empowering Moonshade's character. This, again, isn't showing us what she's doing, her accomplishments, anything. It's showing us what she's done, but not her own work. If she'd been shown CHANGING herself, that would be different.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:40 pm

@kathleen3.0 wrote:
I really need people to stop acting like this is empowering Moonshade's character. This, again, isn't showing us what she's doing, her accomplishments, anything. It's showing us what she's done, but not her own work. If she'd been shown CHANGING herself, that would be different.

Thank you! That's been my feeling about this mess from the beginning. And it was always Moonshade's choice to follow Strongbow. Truth be told, neither her nor Ahdri look good as High Ones.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:40 pm

I think this is supposed to come off as Wingthing described... but Moonshade's side of the story hasn't been fleshed out enough for it to be balanced. And that's why you are having trouble swallowing it.

Her hair must be heavy. Why would she do that to herself?

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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:51 pm

It's just look what I've done, I look like a high one / mannequin now.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:16 pm

Did anyone else think Ahdri's dress looked more like a plexiglass cutout she was standing behind than something she was wearing?
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:13 pm

I couldn't figure out why no one was smiling. Strongbow apparently caught Moonshade in a moment of joy, and yet her expression was dour the whole way through.

@Zadzi wrote:
It's just look what I've done, I look like a high on...
Possibly the most pointless use of shapeshifting power ever.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:40 pm

well..i won't lie, if i could, i would totally shape my hair down to my knees or longer...cause then i could keep it FABULOUS and healthy looking! possibly the shaping includes strengthening the neck muscles so it's not a strain..also possibly elves have lighter hair than humans.

and i love her dress....i do. it's so...pretty....

it actually took me a moment to figure out what was going on in the preview...then i looked at her hair and was like "oh. she must have gone tall and high one now" but that strikes me as weird...she never HAD self shaping abilities, and neither do any of the sun folk...so how on earth could she have learned? it'd make more sense if she said "look, i asked the healers to do this and i'm done!"

also yes, why did no one else look very happy? and the perspective did make it kinda hard to see that she was of a different height and stuff now...or was that just me?
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:50 pm

Agreeing with alot of you. Not a good look for Moonshade, I HATE the hair! Curls don't work like that! And what happened to her face?? That said I would also still have loved to see her magic grow and how she learned to change. It would've, I don't know, seem worth it?
Anyway, interesting that Strongbows only other reason for living is his chief being alive? That's a little bit weird, but makes me wanna go and reread all the conversations between Cutter and Strongbow again.

For some reason I really like the spacey background to the elves in the palace btw. I don't like the new character designs, but something about the (actually very simple) background feels really scifi-ish to me and is very appealing, and it's almost like it reminds me of something...
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:49 pm

I notice Strongbow hasn't sought out comfort from his children at all. Is he still smarting that Chitter was so clearly taking Moonshade's side? Or is this an extension of the "their scents will just remind me Moonshade is gone" fear he was brooding over last ish?

But then the kids don't seem to have any interest in this breakup beyond Chitter's "as long as Mom is happy" and then a statement of shock when Moonshade went full immortal and Strongbow freaked out. Leetah, Skywise and Cutter have all been shown to reflect on the "divorce" more than their own children. Interesting that.

PS: I also wish Moonshade had actually gone for a "new" look - if she grew out her hair, why not have big sausage curls from the weight? Why not take out those lil ear-tufties and actually try a new style. I know you *could* have hair like that if you wanted, with oodles of layering, but why? Why not just keep her hair at its old length then, if she still wants the masses of curls?

Argh, I just hate that rampant clone-tool work. It reminds me of when I used the clone tool to turn Tyleet into a Tribble for Halloween!
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:39 am

He never really was that close to Dart. And what would someone like Chittter say to comfort him anyway? That whole talk of "what about the children?" was just a thinly disguised ruse to try to make her feel bad. He doesn't have that kind of relationship with his kids. And besides... they aren't kids anymore. They are both full adults.

Leetah and Cutter's "children" are also adults.

Also not a fan of rampant clone tool. Or reusing face. Strongbow caught Moonshade in a moment of joy-- and yet she looks sad and sorrowful. Why? Because her face has to be cut and pasted into the next panel.

I do like the idea of this sort of thing happening to Strongbow and Moonshade. It's appropriate, storywise, because they are the staunch conservatives-- so with the world changing, they should experience conflict. Their relationship is the metaphor for the cognitive dissonance of the Wolfriders in general.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:15 am

Why is everyone in the palace standing around like zombies? No facial expression, no animation at all. Why has Moonshade's face changed shape? Frankly I'm not surprised Strongbow doesn't want to join in with this s**tshow. Moonshade's wants to find herself - but apparently that self is a bland, personalityless clone of everyone else the palace has sucked in. Surge was right to be afraid of it.

As others have said, the palace might seem more desirable if we had been shown how great it is instead of just being told. As it is, everyone in it seems to have this Stepford Wives thing going on.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:57 am

From what I've seen in Final Quest, the Palace seems to be brainwashing most pure-blooded elves. And Moonshade and Ahdri look like clones. Moonshade's square face and Ahdri's round one lengthened. And Strongbow looks like the Incredible Hulk. Sonny's made another coloring goof!
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:43 am

Agree with everyone's comments on the preview. I aired my grievances about Moonshade's look elsewhere when the cover first came out. I think what really irks me is that Wendy has ignored what made Moonshade distinctive-looking. In the interview she gave on the Elfquest Show, they talked about how each of her characters (even many background or minor characters,) were designed with recognizable body/face/hair shapes, such that you could look at their silhouettes and still recognize them.

That's no longer possible for Moonshade. Her body had a shape that was distinctive, her face was quite square and her nose and mouth quite small and close to her eyes. Shape-changed Moonshade is perfectly generic. You could swap her body and hair with Ahdri's. Heck, you could swap her with Savah. None of them have any expression on their faces. They literally look plastic.

This is why I can't get behind Moonshade's "journey of self-discovery"--she's becoming less distinctive, not more. I don't care that the text keeps insisting otherwise, the images are telling their own story and it disturbs me. Sun-Toucher, Toorah...they all look like stiff, creepy pod people. And like folks have been saying, what a useless exercise of supernatural power. A make-over? Really??

In the gap between issues I went back and reread the preview. The Moonshade storyline stared with a lot of promise! I loved all her sorrowful, cryptic looks. When the preview was coming out one page at a time, everyone speculated about what could be going on with Moonshade. We got snippets of interactions and conversations that all clearly built toward a crisis--the birth of Shuna's baby, Chitter and the bird, Moonshade's brooding costume and exhausted expression on the day Ruffel was struck by lighting. Then the wordless retreat. That was all great stuff! I was really feeling Moonshade's growing discontent, and I could understand where she was coming from.

Her and Strongbow's plotline in the regular issues has lacked the least part of that subtlety. Every time we see them, they're addressing their relationship crisis and the emotions are turned up to 11. What if we saw Moonshade on the hunt with Strongbow during that spring she spent in the holt--he's fully alive and in the moment, but we can tell she's just not excited by it any more. There wouldn't have to be any debrief or intense confrontation or pleading. The reader could just see that the Wolfrider Way no longer attracts her the way it once did. And yeah, one stinking scene of her doing anything interesting the palace would be great. Like Kathleen said, show us how she shape-changes herself, not just the make-over reveal.

I think the thing that also makes me less sympathetic to Moonshade is how clueless she seems about Strongbow's emotions. When she had her wolfblood removed, she approached him like "ta-da! Aren't you happy for me?" Surely she knew he was going to respond terribly. She's known him for 1,000 years! Likewise, when he reaches out to her in this preview, in sadness and desperation, why would she show him her new non-Wolfrider form and expect him to be anything but horrified. It just seems so...cruel, I guess. Willfully clueless. Maybe she's experiencing her own form of denial.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:29 pm

I think the little blurb about what she is learning (to shape her environment and her essence) is supposed to clue us in as to what she is doing at the palace. Personally, I don't need to see that much. I get that the palace is an abstract, spiritual experience. But I do agree that it would be beneficial, story wise, to show just a snippet of it in a way that helps the reader emotionally connect to the longing the elves feel toward it. Last time, we had a war to show how much it matters to them and why.

But how many times can you have a war for the Palace?

The Palace has always been presented, to a certain extent, as alien and distant. That's why Strongbow freaked out in it the first time-- right? That's why Shuna was uncomfortable. It's described as having some kind of vibration that either jives with you or doesn't.

When the elves imagined it (before Book 4), they always pictured it as the ultimate 'homeplace'-- couched in whatever concept of home was most familiar to them. The Wolfriders saw it as a giant, living tree. The Go Backs as sort of a final resting point. All in all, I think it is strongly connected, conceptually, with the idea of the afterlife. It's powered by the spirits of dead elves-- it offers a form of immortality-- it can be what you want it to be (at least superficially)-- and yeah, it's a little creepy.

The only elves who really have a problem with it (other than Surge) are the mortal Wolfriders-- the only population that wrestles with accepting the inevitability of death. And now, they can find everlasting life by turning themsleves over to the palace-- but only if they give up the life they know.

I think k this explains why the Palace seems like a religion.

The blank faces on the characters are only explained by the fact that Wendy has a hard time drawing on a cintiq (whether she ever admits it or not) and just has a more natural flow and better control with a pencil. But I've given up thinking about that. It is what it is-- and this is the style she's chosen from here on out I guess.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:50 pm

@Wisp wrote:
Agree with everyone's comments on the preview.  I aired my grievances about Moonshade's look elsewhere when the cover first came out.  I think what really irks me is that Wendy has ignored what made Moonshade distinctive-looking.  
Her body had a shape that was distinctive, her face was quite square and her nose and mouth quite small and close to her eyes.  Shape-changed Moonshade is perfectly generic.
 High Ones look generic in general, that's why. They are supposed to look ethereal so they all have long, slender limbs and graceful features. All those rather "square" or "chubby" elves will get stretched in their 'high one shape'.

I think Moonshade's and Ahdri's hair looks so weird, because such long and curly hair is just impossible. The weight of the hair would flatten the curls in real life.

@Wisp wrote:

In the gap between issues I went back and reread the preview.  The Moonshade storyline stared with a lot of promise! When the preview was coming out one page at a time, everyone speculated about what could be going on with Moonshade.  We got snippets of interactions and conversations that all clearly built toward a crisis--the birth of Shuna's baby, Chitter and the bird, Moonshade's brooding costume and exhausted expression on the day Ruffel was struck by lighting.  Then the wordless retreat.  That was all great stuff!

Her and Strongbow's plotline in the regular issues has lacked the least part of that subtlety.  Every time we see them, they're addressing their relationship crisis and the emotions are turned up to 11.
Subtle character development would be great, but I think there are just too many story arcs and not enough pages in FiQu (it less then 30 pages/24 issues, right?). Well, and Elfquest doesn't tend to be very subtle in general, doesn't it?

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Wisp

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:24 pm

@Lunakat wrote:
The only elves who really have a problem with it (other than Surge) are the mortal Wolfriders-- the only population that wrestles with accepting the inevitability of death. And now, they can find everlasting life by turning themsleves over to the palace-- but only if they give up the life they know.

Agree with all you said except I've had the impression that most if not all of the Wavedancers and all of the Fungus Elves, who are immortal elves unlike the Wolfriders, also choose to remain in the world.  You also have Ohler, who has chosen to join Newstar in the forest. For some immortals, the draw of the palace is not imperative and overwhelming.  The fact that the call doesn't break down along a neat mortal/immortal line muddies the metaphor a little bit.  

@Miss Gillespie wrote:
Subtle character development would be great, but I think there are just too many story arcs and not enough pages in FiQu (it less then 30 pages/24 issues, right?). Well, and Elfquest doesn't tend to be very subtle in general, doesn't it?

It's been more subtle than in FQ, usually not on the strength of the story, but on the strength of the art.  Since Wendy stopped hand-drawing, however, there are fewer well-observed little character moments that add nuance to a scene. [Edited to add] The original quest wasn't that many pages.  It felt long because the art was so rich.  Personally, I think FQ is long enough to do everything it needs to, given disciplined storytelling and judicious editing.

I think the Moonshade/Strongbow arc has gotten the right number of pages.  I didn't want more scenes, I wanted better ones.  Over and over again we were treated static scenes of Moonshade and Strongbow having the same conversation (Moonshade: "The Palace is wonderful.  Won't you try to understand why I like being there?"  Strongbow: "We must follow the Way.  I miss you, please don't leave me.")  I found it repetitive.  I don't object to the gist of their plotline or it's general direction.  I think it's an interesting development for well-established characters.  I just wish that the point could be hammered home more creatively and that the art could be more dynamic
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #15 - Delayed.   Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:44 pm

I think Strongbow is going to die, because he feels he has nothing to live for anymore. I think he will either willfully suicide in some battle or will be killed off so he can 'join' Moonshade lol

I just cannot see him embracing the palace. Maybe he'll go hang out with Ember's tribe to feel part of the way and then get wiped out with the others.

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