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PCoquelin

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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:31 pm

Final Quest....

I'm all with Strongbow.

Shenshen's case was bad, already...
...but sending the Call is the worst thing to do at this time, this unprepared.


But maybe it's because I'm just an old gloomer.

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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:21 pm

I totally agree that they are not thinking ahead about sending out the call. It's just like when Sunstream went to fetch Brill- and Cutter was all "this will work out okay! What could go wrong?"

But as far as Shen Shen is concerned... why haven't they done this sooner? We have elves that can shape themselves into wolves, trees, fish like things, etc.. But their primary predators are human beings. Human beings are copulating and populating all around them, encroaching on their territory. The humans fixate on and don't trust them because they look so strange... And yet, the human shape is the closest animal form to what they now possess.

Making themselves look human should have been the most obvious solution in the world. Why didn't they all shape themselves to be human, as soon as they discovered they could, and establish a little human settlement and start interacting with the human populations in a non-threatening, alliance building way- while just not mixing with them for the sake of procreation?

This is such a no-brainer.

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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:22 pm

Well, I like the thought of getting to know other elves, but why do they have to leave?

I guess it's because most of them like being elves, I would to.
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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:27 pm

But being an elf isn't even their real shape- they are just doing it out of habit at this point- and because their ancestors got stuck in it. They were only supposed to have that shape for a weekend.

Seriously- they could eliminate all their problems by getting together, shaping themselves to look human, and establishing a community in and around the disguised Palace. And having Two Edge and/or the Trolls build them weapons. Good weapons.

That's all they have to do. They can keep their powers, their animal friends... everything that's cool about being an elf. But they wouldn't be hunted anymore, as long as they kept to themselves mostly.

This happens in nature all the time- it's called camouflage.

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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:42 pm

Well, for the elves we know, they don't know any other form than the one they have, like Cutter, he has 9-10 ancestors who also were elves, and that's the form they know, and prefer. Living like a human would be difficult for many of them I could imagine, they are much bigger and built another way. I guess many of the elves like the way they look.

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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:04 pm

Not to derail this conversation but I have a short time and I've been meaning to say this:

The Trolls were essentially "uplifted" from animals by the Palace.  What if they can't maintain it without the Palace or elf-magic vibes?  Perhaps that's what's happened to the trolls under the original holt.  It might fit - Guttlecraw's trolls had Mekda, not to mention the Palace itself.  Greymung's trolls had Ekuar and Osek and we don't know when they rebelled - maybe they hadn't been away from the Palace's influence long enough to degenerate by the time the story started.

Picknose's tribe had a ton of elves in wrapstuff and a High-One in wolf-form.

But the trolls on the old continent were left elf-less.  And they're the ones who have degenerated.

It might explain why the trolls are seen serving (willingly) on the Palace in "FutureQuest."  They need the magic vibes to stay trolls!
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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:06 pm

Yeah, it's a good theory. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:08 pm

That's interesting theory. I always assumed they'd inbred themselves into that state, but inbreeding doesn't seem to degenerate the other groups (or the elves for that matter).
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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:11 pm

Dark Serval wrote:
That's interesting theory.  I always assumed they'd inbred themselves into that state, but inbreeding doesn't seem to degenerate the other groups (or the elves for that matter).

It could be a combination of the two..
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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:32 pm

I guess we shall soon ( I mean in only eight issues from now, at the current pace ) understand...
...why Cutter says this, in some ( not so ) far away future :

" We've gotten complacent before -- lazy !
And we've lost... I've lost friends and kin. Body and spirit. No elf should die... "


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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:22 pm

Lunakat wrote:
I totally agree that they are not thinking ahead about sending out the call. It's just like when Sunstream went to fetch Brill- and Cutter was all "this will work out okay! What could go wrong?"

I'll be even far more sinister, with my guesses...

We, the readers, have been presented, all along, only a TINY part of the geography and history of this world of two moons.

Many, many hints, just like strangely unfitting pieces of a big jigsaw puzzle, are there, though, presented to our possible curiosity and imagination...
...but Wendy ALSO did her best to LURE our minds towards TOO EASY ( and oddly incomplete ) deductions and conclusions.


What if the elves we've been led to know and love finally face, because of Sunstream's global mental call...
...a HUGE and RUTHLESS force of wolves and elves, a real NATION, whose objective is to DOMINATE this world ?


What if the main question turns out to be, not " Who will stay and who will go with the Palace ? ", but :

" Who will fight whom ? "

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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:42 am

Just got my copy today. I was surprised to say the least.

Strongbow's reaction the Shenshen's change made sense, but Moonshade was rather cold to him. Well they were cold to each other.

Geez, trees that are really elves. I knew Wendy had used many elements from Tolkien's work, but isn't this a little much. Although it will be interesting to see what happens. Greybeard did seem less hasty as that bunch did.

I thought it was sweet that Leetah and Skywise, by choice maintained their height to be as close to Cutter as possible.

Well now to wait for the next book.

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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:13 am

G0lden wrote:

Strongbow's reaction the Shenshen's change made sense, but Moonshade was rather cold to him.  Well they were cold to each other.

Something like this is what keeps giving me the sense that scenes and plots are being grasped for like straws.

Really...? Moonshade is going to scold Strongbow for his views on this when they BOTH lost a cub that was MURDERED by humans?

I don't care HOW much time, be it a few years or thousands of years, passes by. No mother forgets something like that.

Especially the way the Wolfriders have always been expressed throughout the entire series when it comes to cubs, and how difficult it is for them to have them.

Especially how it was expressed through the story itself how these two were effected so painfully by the loss of their first cub.

And even IF the Now of wolf thought, OR due to Moonshade's change of self and wanting to be closer to the new Palace life she chose may have lessened Moonshade's loss, she would seriously be like that to Strongbow, who suffered just as much pain as she did when Crescent was killed?

We can seriously believe as close as they two have been since the beginning of ElfQuest, that she would actually be cold to Strongbow in regards to THIS particular situation?

His own soulmate wouldn't think of taking his sense of loss into consideration over his negative viewpoint of Shenshen's decision??

I don't buy it. Sorry.

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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:35 pm

But Kindred, they've both also seen a human try to save their son as an elf tried to (and but for Leeatah would have succeeded) murder him.

Shuna saved Strongbow in the Citadel. She held out her hand and said "Trust me!" and he did.

I don't think his reaction has much to do with that old trauma. I think it's more his usual conservatism. He has a point in that they're already massively outnumbered without elves refusing to procreate and other elves actively helping more humans into the world.

Poor guy. He just wants to live in peace and enjoy the friends and family that bring him happiness and everything is going all higgledy-piggledy.

Moonshade wasn't acting coldly to him (or he her) because of this argument in my reading. To me it looked like they were dancing around the issue of their relationship and the recent changes.

Someone, I think it was Leanan, said they liked this development because it's organic. I hate it. What the heck is the point of sending, Recognition and knowing soulnames if this can still happen? Dart and Serrin are no example as they were lovemates, not lifemates. They don't have centuries of deep spiritual togetherness like Moonshade and Strongbow.

If even they, the most solid of the elf couples we have seen, can be pulled apart, then it turns Leetah's "He was my soul!" in KOTBW into "I wasn't tired of him yet!"
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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:41 pm

I read it as he's not fighting change, or maybe even elves turning human.  He's fighting Shen Shen going off and possibly getting her stupid self KILLED and dammit, he cares too much about her to see that happen!  And then what if others he cares about decide to go flitting off to follow?  Nope, not having it!  He's just... got a really snarly way about expressing himself.

Moonshade should know this.  And understand.  She could have gently disagreed with him.  Not submitted to his views, but stroked down the bristles and reassured him.  Played Joyleaf to his Bearclaw.  Instead she chose to wind him up further.    

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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:33 pm

manga wrote:
But Kindred, they've both also seen a human try to save their son as an elf tried to (and but for Leeatah would have succeeded) murder him.

Shuna saved Strongbow in the Citadel. She held out her hand and said "Trust me!" and he did.

I don't think his reaction has much to do with that old trauma. I think it's more his usual conservatism. He has a point in that they're already massively outnumbered without elves refusing to procreate and other elves actively helping more humans into the world.

Poor guy. He just wants to live in peace and enjoy the friends and family that bring him happiness and everything is going all higgledy-piggledy.

Moonshade wasn't acting coldly to him (or he her) because of this argument in my reading. To me it looked like they were dancing around the issue of their relationship and the recent changes.

Ok.... I'll bend this far with you. You bring up some excellent reminders.

manga wrote:
Someone, I think it was Leanan, said they liked this development because it's organic. I hate it. What the heck is the point of sending, Recognition and knowing soulnames if this can still happen? Dart and Serrin are no example as they were lovemates, not lifemates. They don't have centuries of deep spiritual togetherness like Moonshade and Strongbow.

If even they, the most solid of the elf couples we have seen, can be pulled apart, then it turns Leetah's "He was my soul!" in KOTBW into "I wasn't tired of him yet!"

Exactly. Thank you.

I guess my problem is.... throughout the entire series of Elfquest, from the very beginning, it was always pointed out through the art and the words (whether Moonshade or Strongbow even vocalized or used sending at all, the imagery was powerful enough to see it), these two were always drilled into the story as THEE Keepers of the Way. And both of them always acted proudly and grateful for it. Just an example....


"abide by the rules we make..."
Yes, I understand rules change.... but did she even give him a chance to adjust to her changing the rules before taking off to live in the Palace? The way it's been portrayed thus far with the plot moving exceptionally fast, it seems Strongbow's not given a chance, or much of a say to any of it.

Just BAM! There ya go, dude... deal with it. Because that's what everyone else is doing, and/or wants.

I'm not saying elves aren't allowed to change their minds about things, or how they think and what not. I'm not saying that at all. I TRULY understand Moonshade wanting something *more*. That's all cool and awesomesauce.

But what I'm *not* buying is "The HOW" the last two confrontations between them went down the way did. Not with the exceptional bond these two have. I mean, seriously... after the first "snippy" scene we see, Strongbow practically collapses and clings to her in desperation because he MISSES her. A side we've rarely, if EVER, seen from him.

And then her reaction in this latest scene after that, she's still acts like that with him?

ehhhhhh

no.

I seriously don't mean to sound like I'm harping. I really don't. I absolutely adore these two for everything they've been through, and they are by far the strongest of characters in the series to me, side by side with Cutter and Leetah and his family. It just rubs me the wrong way that Moonshade's attitude appears like a spoiled teenage brat to me.

She's got this new style of life now (which is her elvin right, yes! go for it!), but the way she's being portrayed is like she's acting like she's above him, and acting snooty because he won't bend to what everyone else wants.

That's *not* Moonshade we know in my opinion

It feels so out of character to me I guess, and I feel I need to stick up for her in some way.

/opinionventedandgoestohidenow

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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:50 pm

He's had twenty years to adjust at this point. That's plenty of time.

It's perfectly normal for people to grow and change. It's also perfectly common for people in long term relationships to have to step back and reassess at some point. Because often the person you married (or recognized) did not remain static- and is not the same person you started off with. I don't think this means that Leetah's "he was my soul" comment is now disproven- it just means that you need to grow and adjust with your partner, or you will find yourselves growing apart.

Strongbow is super stubborn. That's his problem. There's no reason Moonshade has to gently cajole him and tip toe around his ego. That's not a requirement for the female partner in a relationship. Why are you guys insisting that she has to be the one to cater to him? Hasn't she done that for the majority of their lifemating?

The fact is, Shen Shen is not their kid. She's an adult. She wants to do this- that's her business. It's not a stupid idea. At this point, it actually makes sense, because they have Shuna to guide her- and with all her travels, Shuna should be very familiar with the customs and behaviors of the neighboring human societies.

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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:01 am

Well, as far as the Crescent thing is concerned, Strongbow and Moonshade have both been un-Wolfrider-like in the way they've remembered her. Bearclaw, in the Now of Wolf Thought, couldn't really even remember former Recognized lifemates and cubs. It's been, according to the years they haven't been in wrapstuff, maybe 700 years since Crescent died. Just sayin'.

Anyway, I do disagree that this is like "I wasn't tired of him yet." I don't think that's what's going on at all.

I did kind of want to ask Cutter the reverse of the question he asks Skywise: If Strongbow’s happiness takes away Moonshade’s, should he give it up? That seems like a fairer question because no one’s asking him to give up his wolf blood. He merely needs to let go enough to not require her to hold onto to hers just to make him happy. Should Strongbow's happiness depend on Moonshade having wolf blood anyway?

Maybe Strongbow should look at Cutter and Skywise for an example of how one elf having wolf blood and the other not, does not need to destroy the relationship, though of course it will change it. But Moonshade is changing, looking at things a different way-- and why shouldn't she ask Strongbow a pointed question? Really, that's all she did. She didn't slap him in the face or anything. She didn't disrespect him. She just voiced a difference of opinion in language he understood-- harking back to the past, to tradition, as a way to inform the present.

If Strongbow can do this-- let Moonshade grow into who she wants to become, even if it hurts him-- then this will be the making of him, and the restoration of their relationship on a new and more equal footing.

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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:05 am

20 years.

My bad then.

Just one of those missteps of time a reader stumbles over when reading a comic.

But I don't see being compassionate, or having empathy for someone you love as "catering" to them.

Done that for the majority of their lifemating!? Why, because she's the "calm" in their relationship, just as Joyleaf was the "wisdom" between her and Bearclaw? Calm and quiet doesn't mean meek and timid. But that's just my own portrayal of her.

Maybe some have seen their relationship in that way, but I never did, sorry. I've always seen them as the strength each of them needs in each other, for each other.

And I'm not seeing that same portrayal I've seen for the past 30+ human years as a reader, or the 1000+ years they've been portrayed as throughout the entire series.

Maybe the fact that the FQ feels so rushed to me is why I'm having a hard time grasping this sudden difference in behavior.

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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:15 am

Kojiyumi wrote:
I read it as he's not fighting change, or maybe even elves turning human.  He's fighting Shen Shen going off and possibly getting her stupid self KILLED and dammit, he cares too much about her to see that happen!  And then what if others he cares about decide to go flitting off to follow?  Nope, not having it!  He's just... got a really snarly way about expressing himself.  


One thing everyone is forgetting is that Shenshen lived solely with the Wolfriders for more than five hundred years (KOTW). He probably cares for Shenshen not only as a tribemate, but maybe like the daughter he lost so long ago. He concern is genuine, if not a little bit on the gruff side


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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:22 am

G0lden wrote:
Kojiyumi wrote:
I read it as he's not fighting change, or maybe even elves turning human.  He's fighting Shen Shen going off and possibly getting her stupid self KILLED and dammit, he cares too much about her to see that happen!  And then what if others he cares about decide to go flitting off to follow?  Nope, not having it!  He's just... got a really snarly way about expressing himself.  


One thing everyone is forgetting is that Shenshen lived solely with the Wolfriders for more than five hundred years (KOTW).  He probably cares for Shenshen not only as a tribemate, but maybe like the daughter he lost so long ago.  He concern is genuine, if not a little bit on the gruff side



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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:53 am

I just wanted to add one more little thing before I bow out of the discussion entirely. NOT because of disagree’ing, but because of myself, and how emotional and passionate I feel about these two, as well as the rest of my views about the other characters and storyline. It’s just best if I stay out of it all together because I don’t want to come off as constantly negative and ruining the discussion.

I just want to add one more thing.

Strongbow is not acting like he’s trying to “control” Moonshade.

He’s desperate. Not JUST because of change.

We already witnessed that when he crumbled and confessed how much he misses her.

He feels like he’s losing her altogether.

Anyone, whether human or elf, would act irresponsibly for the sake of love when they feel like it’s slipping through their fingers.  And there’s nothing to stop it.

He’s fighting to keep that. Because he’s lost everything else he knows already.

She’s all he has. She is his soul. We as humans will never understand the depth of that bond that IS Recognition to fully understand the sense of panic and desperation it must feel like when an elf feels like they’re losing that.

Just look back at Clearbrook’s face when she lost One Eye….Or maybe..... it's because of what he witnessed when Cutter lost Leetah and his family.... He saw that loss... and perhaps he's terrified of possibly enduring the same. I believe that’s what Stronbow is feeling in his soul right now.  

Not because he wants to control his soulmate.



Would you fight that desperately too for a love you feel like you’re losing?  And not stumble in the process?

That is all *bows out*
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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:04 am

Well put Kindred.

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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:19 am

Frankly, as I've said before, Strongbow is a cantankerous old man. And anytime we see him in conflict with someone or something, Moonshade is always holding him back, calming him down. When she's upset, or irritable, or cantankerous, he never does the same. I'm sure he supports her in other ways, Stronbow-ish ways, but we don't see it very often. Which makes sense, because Strongbow would rather die than admit he likes you, let alone be open about a deep, strong feeling.

Having said that, I think much of the problem also lies in how rushed the story is. We've been thrown in at the deep end a few times(the humans attacking Ember's tribe, Moonshade suddenly moving into the palace, etc.), so we're not really getting as much of an internal conversation with the characters. Which makes the sudden change in Moonshade so surprising. And who's to say that those of us who are liking the change are really liking it as much as empathizing with anyone who has to put up with Strongbow's crap? We don't see her decide to move into the palace, we don't see her talking to and interacting with Sun Folk, or Timmain, or even Crescent. We're not really given any insight into her decision other than, "The world is hard, I'm going to the Palace." And that would make sense if it were to show that she'd hiding from the world, and it's not going to help(which has been a theme in EQ before) but that doesn't seem to be where they're going with this.

Also, I wanted to comment on the whole Ember denying recognition thing. I liked it. A lot. It was pretty much in keeping with her character's desires throughout this arc("I don't want kids now, I really don't, stop acting like I'm suddenly going to want them, because I really don't."). Recognition has always struck me as basically unfair for elves who DON'T want to be parents, and I'm so glad that was addressed.
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PostSubject: Re: The Final Quest   Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:24 am

Strongbow must feel like...



I guess no one ever told him about the Bro Code #1

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