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Embala

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:06 pm

Twillor wrote:
Their pose almost says, "I found the remote!"

Pike Rolling

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Outlier

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:53 pm

Lunakat wrote:

I kind of hope the Pinis never read this forum.

Seems like there's been a couple of times that Richard or Wendy will post something on FB that kind of reflects a discussion going on here, and it makes me wonder.

But maybe there's just not all that many topics in EQ to discuss, so themes just coincide sometimes.

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kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:15 pm

I think the thing is that if you can't take criticism, don't go into the arts.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:27 am

Zadzi wrote:
It doesn't help when commentary is persistently policed to only be gushing , with a lot of back patting and high praise.  Maybe they are really in denial and keep hearing how amazing everything looks so why change it? They are not good with criticism and it shows, so what can you expect?

A couple of people have nicely sort of mentioned in FB group that the artwork is more clunky and they miss the old hand drawn stuff and coloring, only to be argued with and 'shown' how they are wrong in some way by what's-his-name, that group bouncer and the posse. ?


Didn’t someone here coin the nickname “Robcoil”? I thought the appellation was both hilarious and apropos. But then, I enjoy returning spitefulness to its sender, so…

Zadzi wrote:
It came off as condescending, all the while talking about 'CHANGE' in way that relates to the whole point of EQ. lol It was kind of absurd, really. Just completely shut down the conversation why don't you dude lol.

Aesthetics and style aren't' really something that can be argued about since it's so deeply personal, however it can be compromised and look awkward, and it's not totally out of line to point that out either. It's the loyal, longtime readers who are often going to notice and say something, and it's not just about not liking change, just about being slightly saddened that something they once loved maybe isn't being treated with the same type of love they've witnessed before.

I actually, if I'm to be completely honest, would overlook so much of the color snafus and cut and paste stuff, the clunkiness, etc., if the story itself was paying off. I'm a very forgiving reader despite my seeming criticism. I just need something to really sink my teeth into, otherwise, what's the point?

All of this. I see on FB that one of today’s TBT posts is a chart of the women’s faces, and how each was individually shaped. It’s that sort of loving detail in EQ that captured so many of our hearts and souls, and it’s been usurped by cut-and-paste with godawful coloring. Why waggle that vanished quality in your fans' faces? Oh right, so you can bathe in the resultant cooing.

On top of that, anyone daring to voice a protest toward this current trend is unequivocally snitted at by the Pinis, Robcoil, or both. That goes way beyond “temperamental and/or tired creative types” and right into “emotionally infantile” territory. Grow the hell up, people!


kathleen3.0 wrote:
I've about hit my wall.

Seventeen issues, five bucks each. Whatever. This is just self torture by now.

Same here. It breaks my heart to admit it, but I regret re-finding EQ at this point. I just want this final ride to come to its protracted, crashing halt and let me off.

And I DO hope one or all of them read this forum.

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Redhead Ember

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:59 am

Okay, I can understand how the constant praise may become bothersome, especially if it seems to be fake praise, which - honestly - is more damaging than anything.
However, is this much better? Constantly going "This is so bad and a waste of money!"? Did I miss the meeting where it was decided that Final Quest was nothing but shit?

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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:02 am

What are you talking about, you get really defensive and jump to the rescue of trying to prove how everyone is seeing things 'wrong' if they're not seeing it as great. It's not just trying to be positive, it's downright argumentative. Yes, FQ has turned to shit! That is my opinion, okay? The first 6 issues or so were great and now I think they look and read like shit. There. My opinion.

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Shadowpath

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:34 am

It is shit. Sure there some good things, tiny little nuggets, but there's so much stupid going on that it can't even be considered mediocre at this point.
The newest cover looks awful. The poses are awkward, limbs look too short, the placement of the main plant elf makes it look really damn cluttered.

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kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:35 am

It's not just Final Quest, tho. People who criticize the comic in general feel pretty silenced, whether that's on FB, the original forum, or this one. I can't even talk about the issues with the comic on my own blog without some nerd coming and trying me. Like, sorry, if you can't see the issues inherent with, say, constantly coding Indigenous people as either bad guys, or hapless worshippers of white coded elves, that's not really my problem, and I'm not going to be silent because you're uncomfortable with me talking about it.

And if you think there aren't real world implications to this, well, a kid in Saskatchewan got shot to death last week because people decided, based on stereotypes and racism, that Indigenous people are all terrible. If you think that the fictional portrayals of Indigenous people in films, television, and, yeah, comics, had nothing to do with that, I have some sea ice to sell you.

At the same time, the tendency to negativity can make people feel like their enjoyment of the comic is being attacked. We also tend to identify ourselves with the things we like, so someone saying that the are problematic concepts within the fiction we enjoy makes us question whether or not those issues exist within ourselves(newsflash: you, yes, you, can be subconsciously influences by the biases in media. That's why it's important to think critically about what you consume). So there is a tendency to lash out, instead of thinking about it.

There are good things about Final Quest(I mean, for one thing, it's halfway over), it's been nice seeing Moonshade separate herself from Strongbow and become her own person(although I maintain Wild Hunt did it better) and honestly you can pry Brill/Suntop from my cold, dead, they should have had a more organic growth arc hands. There are also things to criticize. But if someone else talking about either of those bothers you, sometimes you have to scroll past, because no matter how passionate you are, you probably won't change their minds and no one likes to be attacked for their opinion(even when said opinion has potentially harmful real life consequences and no one should be coddled for their bigotry).

Take a break. Walk the dog. Listen to the construction work at six am in a residential zone.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:10 am

It just feels as if everytime I try to engage in honest discussion about an issue, especially in these speculation threads (as in; how the threads are at these stages, once the issues come out it's of course not speculative anymore) without it instantly turning into "Well. Who cares? It's just stupid anyway!"

Take this thread. Are none of you curios?
Where are they?
Where are they heading?
Why is Cutter holding the key?
What the fuck is the 'Ancient Wrong'?
There are so many questions!

I kinda assumed that they would return to the Holt during issue 16, but since they are still with the "Smelly Ones", apparently not. Or maybe they did return and the Smelly Ones went with them. Maybe they returned and the Smelly ones are still back in their del.
Someone over at FB pointed out that the only one from the search party not present on the cover is Dre-Ahn, maybe the reason he isn't included is because he's not actually part of Cutter's Heart Circle; he simply went along because he knew/realised that they might need his help, and they sure did.

Something I've personally been speculating is that maybe the key isn't actually they key. Sure, on the cover Cutter holds the good old fashioned key which he after 500+ years of seemingly having forgotten about it, sudddenly remembered just 10 years ago. But in the storyline it might represent something more; Cutter finding "they key" to something. Or maybe it's both; maybe they actually are heading to the armoury to see if the armour is still usable, would be pretty smart if they're going into battle against the humans, but at the same time it's also more symbolic.

Why can't they use the Palace as a weapon, and why are the Go-Backs so disappointed about it? Wouldn't it be much more Go-Backey to want to engage in direct combat?
Does the fact that they can't use the Palace as a weapon also mean that they can't use it for troop transport? (Or... maybe just pods, probably wouldn't be very smart to bring the non-compatant Sun-Villagers-turned-Palace-Dwellers to the battle.)

kathleen3.0 wrote:
Like, sorry, if you can't see the issues inherent with, say, constantly coding Indigenous people as either bad guys, or hapless worshippers of white coded elves, that's not really my problem, and I'm not going to be silent because you're uncomfortable with me talking about it.

I can see how that's a problem. Which is why Olbar is actually one of my favourite early humans, as he's the only one to have gone "full circle"; from "Those demons are evil and must DIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEE!" to "We must worship the good spirits!" to, finally "Hey! You're just people." even to the point where he saw not wrong with casually tossing Cutter around. Even "Wendy avatar" Nonna had to learn that all the elves want is really friendship.
However, instead of seeing it as a portrayal of all Indigenous people as being either bad guys or worshippers, maybe it could be seen as a commentary of how problematic it is when you judge something you don't really know?
The Gotara people hated and feared the Wolfriders because they didn't understand them.
The Hoa... I-can't-spell-that-word worshipped the Gliders because they didn't understand them.
And, perhaps more importantly, Skywise was distrustfull of humans for the longest time, what with his "I'd rather hate them." line. It's as if in his minds the fact that humans caused the death of his parents meant that all humans were bad. He didn't understand humans either, didn't understand that just because some humans caused a lot of trouble back in the Holt, it didn't mean that all were bad.
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Shadowpath

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:48 am

Not really. It's just another attempt to make more goddamn filler for the comic instead of doing the more reasonable thing be to actually look for the remaining elves with the palace, tell Timmain to shut up about her 'THEY MUST PROVE THEMSELVES TO BE WORTHY' or capable or whatever bullshit she was spewing several issues ago, decided who stays, most of the wolfriders (and the wavedancers?) is my guess and a couple of immortals for family reasons (or maybe they just like the plant, if that's possible) and the rest get the heck off the planet.
*And of course do something to secure the safety of those who stay behind.
** And do something about Rayek and Winnowil.
*** And do something about the fleet of violent humans who are on their way.

Cutter isn't in his right mind at the moment. He could be having a flashback to the war.
The only ancient wrong I can think off would be the troll rebellion. AKA, for some reason they have to find the one who started?
Doesn't make any sense to me to bring that up.
Unless of course they're going for the 'save the high ones' plot again. Which they can't actually do for whatever reason?

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:08 am

When did Timmain ever talk about anybody having to "prove themselves"? It was all about people being able to make the choice.
A choice which - as seen recently with Salt and Spray - may take some time to make.

*** I really don't think anybody is leaving just yet, definitely not before the humans reach the Holt.
Do the humas even know the actual way to Father Tree Holt? Why would Daboi have known that?
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Shadowpath

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:30 am

The part where Skywise isn't allowed to use the palace go find the other elves because those elves have to experience the pain and fear of the travel to reach Timmain.

Why on earth would they need to know where it is? They'll just start burning forests as they come across them. Or heck, maybe they still have one of these lying around.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:54 am

I just never read that scene as They have to prove themselves! But more as They have to be ready.
Maybe that's why the Go-Backs ultimately couldn't move into the Palace after the First War even though they most defintely had proved themselves, they weren't ready. Now, however, they are.

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Sure, they'll find their way. But how long will it take?
And how many will stand in their way?
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:43 pm

I've never liked Timmain's character, she's fairly judgmental of who was and wasn't 'worthy' of being in the palace. She's spend most of her time in wolf form and now she's an elf and is the one to determine who is 'worthy', and yet tries to spin it like 'choice' - I just don't buy it. You're going to not allow elves to be rescued and yet 'they'll make their way to her' if they're 'worthy'.

Whatever, if it works for you, it works for you.  Doesn't work for me though.

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Shadowpath

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:04 pm

*Points up at Zadzi's post* Thaaaat.
The part where Timmain shuts down Skywise, he's putting pressure on 'sparing' any new elves the pain and terror of having to, possibly travel half way around the world and, fight for their life and not get brutally tortured and murdered by humans.
Timmain wants to them to experience that. Learn the lesson of pain and all that gibberish.
Like they haven't done that already.

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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:22 pm

It was a lot more fitting when she turned into a wolf and ran out of the Palace as soon as Rayek started his dickish behavior on the Go-Backs. She didn't support that kind of behavior. But yet he was seen as 'worthy' at the time, and really it was him who pretty much 'renovated' the palace from its sorry ass state. Yet now that he's off chained to a psycho poltergeist in his head, she's taken over and gets to say who's worthy etc.? It's creepy, inconsistent, and somewhat manipulative behavior.
Also, what is this business with the Go-Backs not being 'worthy' of the palace until recently? That's just weird, I never viewed it as that, they just didn't seem the least bit interested of living there after they won it. They went back because Venka led them back there because of Sunstream's call. They decided to stay probably because she stayed, and they're loyal to their chieftess. I don't think they give a toss about living in the palace actually.

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Shadowpath

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:59 pm

Zadzi wrote:
Also, what is this business with the Go-Backs not being 'worthy' of the palace until recently? That's just weird, I never viewed it as that, they just didn't seem the least bit interested of living there after they won it. They went back because Venka led them back there because of Sunstream's call. They decided to stay probably because she stayed, and they're loyal to their chieftess. I don't think they give a toss about living in the palace actually.
I don't get it either. The notion I got was the ones who won the war just didn't like living in it at that point. 
The Go-Backs lost the most in the war for it.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:08 pm

I never said the Go-Backs weren't worthy, I said they weren't ready. The choice was theirs, when the Call went out one of them instantly reacted by basically saying "of course we're gonna go!"
As Krim once put it; "Alive, or dead, the Go-Backs always answer the Palace's call. That's how we're named, and that's what we do." If there was ever anybody who said the Go-Backs weren't worthy, it was Rayek.

The word 'worthy' was never even mentioned in that discussion. It was all about 'choice', and as we have seen; sometimes a choice can change.
What if someone, upon hearing the Call, had initially jumped at it, been brought to the Palace, only to realise that maybe it wasn't so great? Would they just have Skywise drop them off back where they came from and pretend they'd never heard the Call?
And the otherway round, what if someone had initially declined then later decided to give it a shot? Would Sunstream be having to act as a sort of 'taxi HQ' constantly sending Skywise off to fetch new people?
This way it becomes something akind to the Sundering of the Elves in Silmarillion. With many starting the journey but quite a few never making it for a whole bunch of reasons.
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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:26 pm

Being ready is another way of saying worthy - in this specific case, Timmain may call it choice and btw I am not talking about the elves who are undecided , I'm talking about ones who are possibly in danger during their journey and sending out the occasional pod isn't such a bad idea once in a while. No one said Sunstream and Palace had to turn into a NY taxi service lol. My point is, there are already such few elves in the first place so why not pick up the ones who are struggling to get there and possibly being endangered and ask for help, and my point is also the whole thing about survival - Timmain once did what she had to survive in order to help her people. She hunted for them for god's sake, so they wouldn't starve. She wasn't blathering on about the lessons of pain or being ready or saying, when you're ready, the food will be within reach lol. This isn't so different - the palace being some supposed birthright to ALL elves is basically meaning that ALL elves deserve to get to it should they make the CHOICE to...however, if they are ENDANGERED AND ASK FOR HELP, it's a bit weird to just be like no, just no. It's weird, creepy, and quite hypocritical.

As for the Go-Backs, again, answering the CALL of the Palace isn't the same thing as LIVING IN THE PALACE. That is my point. We all KNOW the Go-Backs have consistently gone after it - Hell, that was why they chose their original location - TO BE AS CLOSE TO IT AS POSSIBLE WHEN THEY COULDN'T REACH IT. Once they had it however, they didn't want to live in it. So it makes no sense to say they are 'ready' or even 'not ready'. Worthy or unworthy. They simply SHOWED NO DESIRE TO LIVE THERE. Hell, Krim didn't want to live there either, no until she died lol. It's the same as the wolfriders (most of them) choosing NOT to live there.

There's a DISTINCT IMPLICATION that suggests 'readiness' has to do with worthiness. It's not simply saying, I dunno, maybe they're just not that into it. When you say you're not ready for something, it just makes it seem like you don't have enough in some way to meet that challenge or demand. It might be a semantical issue with the wording but it is way too loaded of a word to be flung around in relation to some ancient holy relic and not have such implied meanings that have to do with 'worth' in some way.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:08 pm

I think the thing with the GoBacks wand that they weren't suited to living in the palace. It would have clashed with their culture, their lifestyle and their basic understanding of the world. They were capable of a suited for warfare-- they were dedicated to winning the palace back. But they were not, as was said, interested in it once they won it.

I don't think any of the elves really knew what the palace was at that point. It was a myth to all of them. They all believed in the myth-- but the reality was different-- so alien-- to them, that they were disturbed by it. Only a handful of the elves who fought for the palace-- Skywise, Rayek and who knows who else-- were ready to embrace it for what it was, much less live in it.

The Sun Folk are uniquely suited to be Palace Dwellers, I think, because of their previously established culture and lifestyles, the lack of activities like hunting or fighting as part of their daily routines, and the general  emphasis on artisan skills like weaving or sculpting, etc.. It was an easier shift for them to simply resituate in the palace, learn to sculpt it's form or focus on mastering its powers, and not feel the need to be outside moving about as much or feel so attached to the outer world.

I don't think that has to do with worthiness as much as just nature and culture.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:27 pm

Zadzi wrote:
Being ready is another way of saying worthy

No, this is wrong. I wasn't ready to go to college when I was eighteen. I was ready when I was twenty, though. Was I "worthy" to go at twenty but not eighteen?

You're projecting far too much here.

The whole "those who make the journey etc." comment from Timmain, in my opinion, echoed and clarified in the sending conversation between Sunstream and Korafay. When an elf decides they're done with the WoTM, they'll make the journey.

The Go-Backs weren't ready to live in the Palace before the FQ because right after the OQ for a number of reasons -- the biggest being it wasn't what they expected. (eg, Kahvi, "We'll live in the home of our foreparents and want for nothing!"). It was also crumbling, in disrepair and alien. Also, there was Rayek, who probably wasn't the most welcoming.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:29 pm

Did you even read my entire post? Implying you going to college was something you weren't ready for meant it was too much of a commitment at some point. I'm not reading too much into anything. I am saying however that there's a different between as Lunakat pointed out, culture and nature, versus 'readiness for a commitment'. I even pointed out the distinct difference between not wanting to do something because it just isn't your thing vs. not being 'ready' for that commitment.
That isn't projection.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:38 pm

Zadzi wrote:
Did you even read my entire post? .

Yes, i did. Which is why I quoted the first sentence. You made it a statement of fact.

And you backtracked as soon as other people disagreed.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:41 pm

Redhead Ember wrote:
It just feels as if everytime I try to engage in honest discussion about an issue, especially in these speculation threads (as in; how the threads are at these stages, once the issues come out it's of course not speculative anymore) without it instantly turning into "Well. Who cares? It's just stupid anyway!"

Exactly.

Thank the disir for the block function.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:42 pm

Shadowpath wrote:
It is shit.

Speak for yourself, and only yourself.



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