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Miss Gillespie

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:18 pm

Shadowpath wrote:
Miss Gillespie wrote:
Shadowpath wrote:
Miss Gillespie wrote:
Does Skywise discriminate against dead elves? 
I think it has more to do with him wanting to physically have Cutter. Aka he's trowing a fit because he doesn't want to lose somebody he can sleep with.
If Elfquest was a bit more popular, there would be so weird porn popping up (Timmain satisfying two desires in one).
...Well, I haven't seen weird elfquest porn yet.
I think I implicitly said, that Elfquest isn't popular enough for porn Razz

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Shadowpath

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:20 pm

Miss Gillespie wrote:
Shadowpath wrote:
Miss Gillespie wrote:
Shadowpath wrote:
Miss Gillespie wrote:
Does Skywise discriminate against dead elves? 
I think it has more to do with him wanting to physically have Cutter. Aka he's trowing a fit because he doesn't want to lose somebody he can sleep with.
If Elfquest was a bit more popular, there would be so weird porn popping up (Timmain satisfying two desires in one).
...Well, I haven't seen weird elfquest porn yet.
I think I implicitly said, that Elfquest isn't popular enough for porn Razz
But there is porn. It's just not 'weird'.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:03 pm

that's... a matter of opinion. Gotta say, back in the heady days of the early aughts, I saw some things I still can't un-see. Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:16 pm

*Thinks about the last pages in the newest issue*
I have got to wonder what on earth they're thinking. They're trying to infiltrate a very dangerous area, Cutter doesn't care if he dies, not considering how his death would effect the 6 other people with him and Skywise decided it's good time to start going 'no you can't die I want you in your body with me forever'.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:56 pm

wingthing wrote:
that's... a matter of opinion. Gotta say, back in the heady days of the early aughts, I saw some things I still can't un-see. Shocked

Some guy with the handle The Magician (IIRC) redrew panels to be porn. Some of them were definitely in the "Dude, wtf is WRONG with you?!" category.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:33 pm

Zadzi wrote:
Don't know if I can compare cancer treatment with getting wolf blood removed, that's rather extreme and too much of a real world scenario in terms of chemo being a dangerous yet usually necessary method to treat a disease .

It's comparable. Both undergoing chemo and removing Wolfblood cause effects a person may not want. And both are alternatives to dying (relatively) prematurely. Both are (supposed to be) the will of the patient.

Quote :
Nothing about getting wolfblood removed comes off as painful over the longterm, it just sounds like a huge adjustment and wolfriders aren't exactly renowned for their flexibility in terms of change.
The process may not cause physical pain-- but it does have permanent, long term effects. Skywise went through a lot of angst with it for certain. Now he can never bond with a wolf again. His sensory experience of the world is changed. He couldn't hunt or track as well as he used to. His instincts were different. And he was unable to integrate with his tribe in the way he used to. Now picture Cutter or Strongbow or Nightdall going through that. It would change the core nature of their identities.

Quote :
If anything Cutter is the only one who is considered the most flexible. However, maybe he's hanging on to this thing about remaining mortal because he's gone against 'the way' for so long that maybe there's some kind of need to retain *something* of the 'the way'.
I personally think the argument has gone on too long about this subject in FQ - it's kind of ridiculous. You can get your wolfblood removed and still get killed. You aren't omnipotent.
I don't thi I that was the point though. The point was that, barring accident, you could live indefinitely. But you would alienate yourself from the culture in which you were raised and never again have the same sense of self or lifestyle.

Quote :
However, it's also shown that all those wolfriders who get the blood removed automatically go live in the palace. I mean, is this a thing? Do you just lose interest in being outside or something once that happens, because it sure looks like it.
Only two Wolfriders have done that. Skywise and Moonshade. Both of them already preferred life in the Palace. That was established before they gave up their wolfblood. The only other characters, arguably, to lose Wolfblood and have the option of the Palace are Kahvii and Windkin. She surely did not choose a life inside. But then, she also didn't choose to give up her mortality. Windkin the same. He's hanging out outdoors half the time. So-- clearly simply giving up wolf genetics doesn't turn a person into a palace dweller.

Quote :
Obviously the wolfriders aren't 'comfortable' for extended periods in the palace before that, but is it absolutely necessary to go live there after you do? I just think this entire argument about wolfblood has nothing to do with immortality so much as it has to do with lifestyle.
Yes-- exactly. It has to do with lifestyle. But a large part of their lifestyle involves being able to bond with and relate to wolves-- and both Sust and Skywise have demonstrated that culture isn't enough for that-- they need to be part wolf to really do it right.

Quote :
We haven't had a wolfrider get his blood changed and want to continue living outside, except for Skywise early on, but he's also always totally been into the palace too.
And Windkin. And all the Go Backs (who are descended from Two Spear's group).

Quote :
It seems very either/or and makes the stakes now almost seem artificially higher than they need to be for the story. They've had such a long damn time to ruminate and think about the blood removal thing. It's not that big of a deal anymore, why is it continuing to be, it's just feels like very manufactured drama.
I think it is very either/or. Timmain said the Wolfblood and mortality gave them the right to call this land their own-- because they were innately part of it and tied to it. It's essential to certain core aspects of their lifestyle. The only reason to change is to leave the planet in the Palace. Whether they do that or not-- the decisions made are absolute and life altering.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:52 am

On the surface I can definitively see the similarity between cancer treatment and wolfblood removal. Cancer treatment can have some seriously bad long term effects that can change your life forever, but at least you'd probably live for a little bit longer.

However, there is a magical aspect inherent in elfquest that makes the comparison a little bit inadequate, and that's the guaranteed presence of a soul. I'm thinking that if I was confronted with having to do cancer treatment right now I'd take it, no question at all, no matter how it would affect me. I definitively want to live and despite one of my most recent posts here, I would very hypocritically insist that anyone I cared about do the same, just like Skywise does.

But if I knew for absolute certain that there is such a thing as a soul, and that a soul would be irrevocably changed now and even beyond death? That would change everything and I'd probably be way more comfortable with the thought of death too, for me and others. (Which I why I feel justified in being all judgemetal about Skywise)

We don't know that much about wolfridersouls special freedom, only that they go where they please. But that is potentially a HUGE benefit I know I'd be loathe to give up! Especially until I knew exactly what that might entail.


Last edited by namuhna on Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:53 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : who brought soul soul along??)
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:09 am

But that still applies-- because my brother in law and his family are all Catholic and firmly believe in life after death, souls and a reunion in heaven. But they still wanted their dad to get the surgery. Because it's not really the same thing.

Even Cutter admitted that when he was talking to Suntop in Cry from Beyond. He asked him to think of Savah (Suntop and Savah were regularly "going out" and encountering each other as spirits)-- Cutter said "you'd like much better to hug her than to touch her spirit from afar." I think it's just a different kind of thing. Like keeping in touch with your friends or family via Skype or the telephone vs living next door to them. Having one party die and the other not would fundamentally change the relationship-- right? Even if they are sure of life after death and can even communicate.

I wasn't trying to say that this is exactly like cancer treatment-- obviously it's not. I was just trying to speculate, by drawing a relatable comparison, as to how Skywise might view and feel about it. I just went with that particular analogy because it had just happened to my brother in law recently.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:53 am

I think the analogy works pretty well. From the immortals' point of view, the wolf-blood is pretty much a variety of cancer or deadly auto-immune disease.
As far as Skywise and Moonshade are concerned, they're watching their loved ones choose to suffer from a degenerative genetic disorder that is invariably fatal and relatively fast-acting, by the immortals' reckoning of time. And the treatment is simple, 100% successful, and relatively free of side-effects.*

*side-effects include dry mouth, diminished of sense of smell, taste and sound, altered body odor, and ability to "truly" bond with wolf**. In some cases, patients may exhibit a heightened sense of self-satisfaction and an irrational distrust of Wolf-fathers.

**This side-effect can be partly or wholly negated by application of Wolf-father magic. Assuming patient doesn't have an irrational distrust of him. Or... you know, there's training.


Last edited by wingthing on Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:13 am

Quote :
As far as Skywise and Moonshade are concerned, they're watching their loved ones choose to suffer from a degenerative genetic disorder that is invariably fatal and relatively fast-acting, by the immortals' reckoning of time. And the treatment is simple, 100% successful, and relatively free of side-effects.*
Exactly!

Quote :


**This side-effect can be partly or wholly negated by application of Wolf-father magic. Assuming patient doesn't have an irrational distrust of him.
Yeah-- but I think it goes beyond Teir or training. Because the wolves aren't pets to them-- they are family. And that makes total sense considering that, until recently, the wolves were literally family-- Timmorn's other children and their distant kin.

Hey-- not to detour to conversation too much, but I was just thinking about this blogpost:

http://raisedbyelves.tumblr.com/post/135219573395/skywise-timmain-and-imbalance

The author of this blog makes some good points. For a while I was in complete agreement with her--- but then I started to think about her analysis of how there was a power imbalance in the relationship between Skywise and Timmain-- and how Timmain withheld information... and I suddenly realised-- Cutter does this too!

There is a total power imbalance in Skywise's relationship with Cutter. Cutter is his chief-- and therefore can tell (and has told) him what to do and what not to do. But beyond that-- Skywise needs Cutter more than Cutter needs Skywise. Cutter has Leetah and his family and his essential, central role in the tribe. Skywise is basically alone and always has been (except for Cutter). His parents died at birth- he doesn't relate to his tribe super well-- all his significant girlfriends either got killed or betrayed him. All he has is Cutter.

It's been demonstrated over and over again that Cutter will prioritise other things, people and responsibilities over Skywise-- and that the reverse is not true. Cutter has to- because he sees the bigger picture. But then-- so does Timmain. She is all about the big picture. And, like Timmain, Cutter withholds pertinent information when it suits him. He, also, isn't telling Skywise or Leetah about his Timmain connection. He isn't telling them why they are in the troll caverns. And he's done it before. Right before "Shards"-- he made a secret plan to split the tribe. He told a bunch of elders-- and he told Leetah (I think)-- but he broke the news to Skywise in front of everybody with the order to go away with Ember. That was not a considerate approach.

Is Timmain so very different, then? More inscrutable to us as readers? Sure. But in terms of her ethics and behaviour? Not really. We just know and like Cutter better so we give him a pass.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:27 am

Lunakat wrote:

Is Timmain so very different, then? More inscrutable to us as readers? Sure. But in terms of her ethics and behaviour? Not really. We just know and like Cutter better so we give him a pass.

Speak for yourself. Laughing

Srsly, though, ever since that incident in the Palace War I have seen the Skywise-Cutter bond as very imbalanced and more than a little unhealthy. Cutter's abandonment of Skywise and Skywise's resentment, and its eventual resolution(sorta?) in Wolfshadow really captured it perfectly.
Skywise cannot seem to function without Cutter and his approval, and Cutter either completely unaware of just unhealthy that is, or he just doesn't care. Sure, he proved how much he loved Skywise by rescuing him from both humans and the whole "wolfshadow" mania, but he STILL wouldn't talk about the Palace War incident.

Cutter's relationship with Skywise is always on HIS terms. And when Skywise tries to take control, Cutter shuts him down.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:00 am

Lol-- and totally.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:06 am

Lunakat wrote:
But that still applies-- because my brother in law and his family are all Catholic and firmly believe in life after death, souls and a reunion in heaven. But they still wanted their dad to get the surgery. Because it's not really the same thing.

Oh, but no, but I see I might've been unclear. Less fear of death and insurance of soul is not the main reason why someone might be less inclined to go through with life-altering treatments! It's the change in the soul that's the defining difference between cancer treatent and removing wolfblood. And that would be even more applicable in a family with faith!

Being alive with a body is good and all, but if your family knew that the surgery would forever and irrevocably change dads immortal soul would they still want him to go through with it? Consider if they also knew he didn't particularly want those changes? I mean even worst case scenario of losing everything that makes life worth living, you're still not going to be stuck in that body. Changes to the soul tho? Those you're stuck with forever!


I totally see the similarities tho, and I bet that Skywise pretty much thinks of removing wolfblood exactly as one of us would consider cancer treatment. But it's the other element of soul-change, vague as the change might be, that really makes the situation completely different... in my mind at least.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:11 am

Lunakat wrote:
Cutter said "you'd like much better to hug her than to touch her spirit from afar." I think it's just a different kind of thing. Like keeping in touch with your friends or family via Skype or the telephone vs living next door to them. Having one party die and the other not would fundamentally change the relationship-- right? Even if they are sure of life after death and can even communicate.

This made me laugh, maybe because I had a skype with my sister yesterday and it doesn't work for me. As if some part of me doesn't believe it's for real. Something is missing.

Lunakat wrote:
Is Timmain so very different, then? More inscrutable to us as readers? Sure. But in terms of her ethics and behaviour? Not really. We just know and like Cutter better so we give him a pass.
True. It's difficult to relate to Timmain the way she is depicted (no doubts, no needs that we can see) so it's easier to see only what we don't like/understand in her

And I'm seeing a link between those two things... Maybe wolfriders can't relate easily to their spirit kinds because something of the relationship is missing AND because being a spirit changes them: I suppose dead elves are ride of all the worries of living ones, no more doubts, needs, mistakes... It's like trying to talk to a friend who's experiencing some big change in the way he/she see the world: it feels like your living in a different world and it becomes difficult to relate.

wingthing wrote:
Skywise cannot seem to function without Cutter and his approval, and Cutter either completely unaware of just unhealthy that is, or he just doesn't care
Hum, interesting. What makes you think he doesn't care? Cutter cannot function without Leetah or Skywise but he doesn't tell them how they should live (I think... tell me if I forget something that happened)

Quote :
Cutter's relationship with Skywise is always on HIS terms. And when Skywise tries to take control, Cutter shuts him down.

isn't that the problem? Cutter DOESN'T try to take control, Skywise do.

Edit to had: I don't have all the Cutter/Skywise stories in mind so I may be wrong here
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:05 am

You know, Skywise, the last time Timmain had sex before you was with a wolf. (And most likely, she didn't ever have a very active sex life. Maybe the life with the other high ones is no longer canon, and before that she used to life sex free).

I doubt this whole soul-thingy is very thought through. Unless the souls wolves of this planet function similar to the alien high one race, why should Timmain be able to produce a child with a "hybrid soul"? Maybe it would be a hybrid on a genetic level, but not on a spiritual one.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:28 am

It's pretty much confirmed in canon that souls are a product of the state of the body, and if the body changes in various ways, so does the soul, and once death occurs the soul is more or less stuck in its shape... (apparently less since the palace might be able to heal Winnowill after all) So if a hybrid body is possible, then a hybrid soul is just as possible, and souls of the wolves might be as different from high one souls as wolf bodies are from high ones bodies.

I really hope the soul thing is thought through. if not then what's the point with making hybrids in the first place? It's really the only thing that distinguishes the super special wolfriders from the other elves.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:48 am

Don't the humans on Abode have reincarnating souls (at least, that's what the humans there think they do)? A reincarnating soul should behave differently from a "staying soul" (aka a high one soul). Or maybe they have no soul at all. A wolf of Abode would most likely have, if at all, have a soul more akin to a human then to this alien species.

Also, what's a soul made of? What is it? Apparently it's the disembodied character. But why should the genetics have any influence on the soul? How does being a wolfrider/ having wolf blood influence the soul? We only saw how it changed the appearance of the 'soul image' of a wolfrider to feral, but anything else? If an immortal elf contracts a disease, would this alter his or her 'soul image'/ the soul alter ego of the body? 
What would happen to Two-Edge if he dies? Will the troll aspect of his soul disappear (we never saw troll souls), will the troll part of his soul drag the elf part to where ever troll souls are (non-existence?).




Sidenote, why didn't Teir react to Ember's feral 'soul image' at all? No shock, no curiosity...

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:19 am

...well, my theory for a while now has been that reincarnation is exactly what makes wolfriders different from regular elves and allows them to go where they please, including reincarnation as whatever wherever, even outside of the palace aura since their soul is part abodean.

While the regular elves die, but their souls are restricted to Palace aura, and who knows, maybe some sort of reincarnation for them too? Timmain being reborn certainly indicate this, but that might also be because she changed into a wolf on genetical level... I seem to remember she did that and was pretty special for it too, so her soul suddenly and unexpectantly following Abode-rules might be why she needed time to understand what had happened rather than been prepared from it from the very beginning.

I think a soul is made of whatever made the body work. It's therefor shaped by the body it inhabits until it may have a new one and then it is shaped by that one. Wolfriders are either reincarnations of other wolfriders or abodean souls who get to reincarnate to elves because of that drop of wolf blood, who now thanks to elf-shapes, have the choice to live on forever in the palace (and powering it??), or continue reincarnating.... which come to think of it kinda makes sense because why would it suddenly be able to do all these magical things now and not when the high ones first arrived unless it's powered by additional souls oh wow, I gotta think about this abit...
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:19 am

Interesting discussion. I agree with most that is said and can see the point in the rest.

I totally relate to Skywise because that's how I wired in real life - avoid death, fight it, put it off and try to stay with me as long as possible - given that the side effects seems bearable. But ... I've also learned that this is MY view on it. May view on how it should be, my view on the relevance of side effects and my wishes. I try to see how the affected person looks on it, what s/he wants. I try - it doesn't always work in "little things". I seriously have no clue how it will actually work out in a "life or death" situation in real life. I just hope I'll have the wisdom to put aside my own wishes in favor of the true wishes of the primally affected person.



And I have a rather simplified view on the mortal/immortal question in EQ.

Elves know that there is a spirit life aber physical death. They know that they can keep in contact with their loved ones after sedding their shell. They even know that afterlife is probably interesting and fun and cool (look at Kahvi ^^). And they understand that living in the Palace and no longer aging and suffereing from the hardships of Abode will be safer. More comforable.  And it offeres an eternal life with your loved ones in flesh - for "little" cost.

But the elves are individuals with different values, preferences and a different view on the life as it is  and the life how it can be.

Skywise alway was drawn to the stars. He was more afraid of physical death as the average WR and has a much harder time to deal with it. He was fascinated by the Palace and the possibilities it offeres from the very beginning. He longed for more than WR life could give him - lonmged for different things very much. Being immortal and living (mostly) in the Palace grants this wish for him. Much achievement for little cost from his point of view.
Moonshade suddenly wanted something else than WR life ... *shrug* ... let's assume she was fed up with the hardships of Abodean life and the limitations to her artistic creativity. She wanted something else - and the Palace came handy. She wanted to fleeAbodean life (still cannot see what she gets from the Palace in exchange) and in consequence she "cut the ties" at some point.
For both elves it was a logical, consequent and desirable developement. And they wish the same for her loved ones (not quite selfless, tho).

Cutter on the other side is very content and in tune with his life as a WR. He mourn his loss (be it parents, friends or wolfbonds) but he takes it as something natural and goes on. Of course there was this short dream of immortallity when he learned by Savah's example that life need not be necessarily "sharp and short". But he was not shocked when he learned that WR life will be shortcut. He is the "Chief of Change" and his decisions changed the life of the WRs (and probably anyone else) but he stayed comfortable with the basics of WR lifestyle - mortality included even after the dreadful experiance during the Long Wait. The wolfblood and the lifestyle it brings means more to him than the promises of the Palace. "Going to the stars ... learning to manage magic ... there's time enough for it in the afterlife. I want to enjoy to the ful what I have and like NOW."
And Strongbow ... he's not even able to wish for something different than the Wolfrider way of life how he's familiar to.
Both have not found a good reason for themselves to change their lives as drastically as removing their wolfblood. Not yet. For them the benfits of immortality don't pay off the side effects or - in Storngbow's case - the side effects appear nearly unbearable.


Skywise reminds me of my former boss. He suddenly discoveres sports for himself - especially running (marathon) and biking. And he went all missionary with it. "You can do so, too. You must do so. It will improve your health and your well-being. It will release endorphines when you go to your limits and further." He did his best to convince everyone of the benefits of his way - me included.
Well, to be honest - more sports would have been healthy for me (not exactly marathon ^^). But - I never liked any kind of sports. I'm without car and must walk everywhere anyway but that's enough of sportive activity for me. Going at my limits physically never released endorphines ... just relief when it was over. And sports keeps me away from what I really want to do! I get my satisfaction from creativity, from craftswork - workes even for an endorphine kick at times. Why should I barter something I love for something I'm not interested in or dislike? For the promise of a healthier and longer life (which isn't guarantied anyway) that I must spend in a way I don't really want to?

Or should I listen to the well-meaning advices of my mother? "Reconsider whether you really should do this (i.e. taking in a cat again). You can live without it. And you are in an age when things can happen and your life can change. And then this can be a burden for you - or others."
WTH ... *sigh* I was in my mid-fifties then!
YES, life without a cat is possible. Yes, having an outdoor cat brings some worries and hardships, too. Yes, it can become a minor problem when I (rarely) take a few days of vacation - which can be solved with some effort, help and/or some money. And there are sceneries imaginable when it would be of advantage if there is no pet to care for.
Fact is - I love to have a cat. I love to touch and pet. I love to have her purr at me and soothe my moods. I love to know there is something alive waiting for me. I'm more comfortable at evenings and night when there is a living being with me in the dark. I sleep better and possible nightmares vanish when I just touch her ... just feel her prescence.
Are those logical reasons to have a cat? Probably not - this tiny furball is neither a prescribed medecine nor can it be of help in real danger. But it helps ME - it brings me content and safety and love and joy. That counts much more than the admittedly very real worries and inconveniences going with such a lifestyle. So why should I deny myself of something that I enjoy and makes my life feel better NOW ... just to avoid a problem or a sorrow that might or might not come sooner or later?


Why should Cutter or Strongbow and other WRs barter the life they have, the life they are happy and content with into something else - unless they see a pay off for themselves? For each one individually. "Because it's reasonable" is not a sufficiant answer for me - not even "because your friend desperately wishs so". Not as a rule for "everyone" ... but I'll totally buy it as an individual decision - even for the mentioned reasons.


*ouff ... longish post to explain a simplified pov! O.O *

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:48 pm

Just read it.
All I have to say is I understand the series less and less and even less.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:14 am

OKay, i just read it. Honestly, I didn't hate it! I thought it would've been worse but it's not bad at all...and this whole thing with Skywise...regardless of what Cutter's decision is about whether to be immortal or not, Skywise's timing is just shitty. He is obviously terrified to lose Cutter and all that but dude needs to wait for a better time before he starts in with his lists of reasons and demands as to why Cutter MUST do this. I get the whole abandonment issue thing but seriously his timing is incredibly bad.  

It reminds me of when Skywise wanted his wolfblood back and became a snarling mess and Cutter could only bring him back by pointing out the stars and then sending his soul name. Leetah clearly tells Skywise NOT to use Cutter's soul name yet it looks like he's probably about to in the next issue. My guess is he freaks out further, but who knows, maybe it 'brings him back' or something.
The one thing I'm continuing to be bugged about is how this huge Timtam reveal is not known to the others. Especially considering Timmain was there and could've said something... it just seems really weird not to. I'm always suspicious of her and I've never liked her, but I also realize she's supposed to be a goddess and can do not 'wrong' in the story.... so it's just incredibly frustrating to watch her withhold info deliberately and not be suspicious.

I liked the part with Savah and the compost elves but I'd like to know more about the history in general.

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Redhead Ember

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:16 am

Here's something I've been thinking about.

So, Cutter knows that his promise to fly with Skywise in the Palace stands more than ever because he (Cutter) is also Timmain, and Timmain is very likely going to leave in the Palace when the time comes.
Skywise - of course - doesn't know that piece of info and therefore believes that Cutter simply means that he'll fly in the Palace as a spirit.
Wendy has been on the record and stated that Cutter still isn't quite there, an example being him forgetting about Sunstream's name-change.
So... could the reason why Cutter doesn't simply tell Skywise and the others about the whole shared-souls thing be because he doesn't actually remember that he, or Timmain, hasn't already told them?

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:14 am

Lunakat wrote:
But beyond that-- Skywise needs Cutter more than Cutter needs Skywise. Cutter has Leetah and his family and his essential, central role in the tribe. Skywise is basically alone and always has been (except for Cutter). His parents died at birth- he doesn't relate to his tribe super well-- all his significant girlfriends either got killed or betrayed him. All he has is Cutter.

Well put, that is what I meant with "intrinsic loneliness". He has/had all this lovemates but I always got the feeling he tried to distract himself from something. When he slept with Timmain the panel says "And as simply as that an aching emptiness,at long last, is filled..." (btw, I really love that scene art wise). He doesn't have a (close) family, Yun is too distant (or at least we don't saw that much of them together. I also miss, that we never saw that he might try to get in contact with the spirits of his parents - i would love to actually see this.)

Lunakat wrote:

Hey-- not to detour to conversation too much, but I was just thinking about this blogpost:

http://raisedbyelves.tumblr.com/post/135219573395/skywise-timmain-and-imbalance

Thank you for the hint to this, very interesting read! And I have to agree with you all who see this imbalance in the relationship/s Cutter/Skywise/Timmain.


Yeah, the timing of the confrontation is bad and pushy. I mean this literally, too: I can get that he in his frustration and head of the moment pushes Cutter once, but twice? Mad  

@Embala: "Amen" to your cat paragraph cat  

What is a soul/spirit (in EQ)? Good question. Some Djunslander believe in reincarnation*. If this is "true", we don't know (at the moment). But I would at least say humans have a soul. With Dewshine and Tyldaks Recognition in OQ15we know, that the wolfblood also manifest in the soul. So I would say other abodean creatures, like humans, have souls. I also would say that Two-Edge has a "hybrid" soul. (Where do troll souls go, btw? I guess they have souls, too, like the coneheads, same reasoning as for the Abodean Souls) From this scene we also know that "cosmetic" alteration of the body doesn't effect the soul. We see Tyldak as he used to look like. This we see again in FQ. My question is what about the ones with the deeper change, the loss of the wolfblood? Cutter doesn't react to a changed Fahr, he only states to the change in Skywise physical body (like smell, skills). But with Kahvi's death we know she doesn't look feral like Dewshine, is seemingly bond to the palace, and she lost her wolfblood (if the Kahvi storyline is canon).

Miss Gillespie wrote:
Sidenote, why didn't Teir react to Ember's feral 'soul image' at all? No shock, no curiosity...
Good question. I have no idea...

*the whole "souls" as one eternal self in EQ are described mostly through a western/christian lens, I have to say (this is not meant as a criticism, just an observation). In Hinduism and Buddhism (where most "westerners" get the idea for reincarnation of the soul from), it is a little more complex.

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Miscellaneous

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:23 pm

Embala wrote:
Are those logical reasons to have a cat? Probably not
Yes they are! To me, they are : )
   
Lunakat wrote:
Hey-- not to detour to conversation too much, but I was just thinking about this blogpost:

   http://raisedbyelves.tumblr.com/post/135219573395/skywise-timmain-and-imbalance
Good read, thanks for the link!


Shapeless ideas that came to me as I reread, not really going anywhere... But I want to play the speculation game!

Cutter to Two-Edge: "You're not even the only one who's two in one, old bugbear! Something wrong needs righting."

Either it's an approximate way to speak of him and Timmain (but they're more one split in two...) or it's something else (the wolfriders, Rayek...) But if Cutter is speaking of himself, "two in one" would mean him and the-part-of-him-that-is-Timmain. Maybe he means to get ride of her, to cut her out (no idea what that would do in the soul area...) The sword is maybe just a metaphor then, of what he needs to cut the link. But then... If the Cutter part of him recognized Leetah and the Timmain part recognize Skywise, would he somehow cut his link to Skywise too?
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Redhead Ember

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:50 pm

Miss Gillespie wrote:
Sidenote, why didn't Teir react to Ember's feral 'soul image' at all? No shock, no curiosity...

Ember and Teir were together for about 50 years before they recognized, plenty of time for him to get used to the idea of her having a wolf soul. Then when they finally recognized he was a bit pre-occupied to notice what her soul looked like.
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