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manga

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:20 pm

TRIGGER WARNING. TOUGH ISSUES AHEAD.


That reminds me of one story-line I'm glad they seem to have ret-conned out of existence and that is, perhaps, an early example of the Pinis acting tone-deaf. (Though the story was by others, so I'm not sure how much really lays at the Pinis' door.) There's a mostly-unfinished story from EQ Volume II (the series that was published in the early 2000's) about Mender deciding to make himself look human and infiltrate the nearby human city. Hijinks ensue as he sets out to pursue two sisters and offers to "help" the hapless young man who is publicly betrothed to the elder sister but in love with the younger sister. (I think you can find it linked to on the EQ story history page. The last couple of installments are just in script form as they never got published due to one thing or another.)

It's supposed to be hijinks, anyway. With poor Mender left more befuddled by humans than ever at the end. But his actions would meet the definition of rape in most civilized jurisdictions. Sure the elder girl didn't mind but then he'd told her that he was her betrothed. He was not who she thought she was agreeing to be with. And then the younger sister...! Convincing her she had to betray her older sister to save the man she loved (and again, he was lying about his identity) I can almost let slide because he really has NO idea about human laws of fidelity and chastity but he didn't stop what he was doing even when she was sobbing in his arms. He just shot her full of more "elf sexy magic juice" and never mind what any of it was doing to her psyche.

So I guess Mender was grey before FQ.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:30 pm

Errh, yeah. That that storyline.   What a Face
I remember flipping through it,(Didn't like the art style and I lose interest in anything when there's big focus on humans) and that part really didn't sit well with me. 
I don't know about the finer workings of that human culture, but my first thought was 'well Mender just got her killed.'

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:34 pm

Oh yeah! You're right. I can't believe I forgot about that!!!
That was actually a really, really great issue I though (a two part story which never wrapped up and also it looks like it was the intro to Khorbasi or however his name is spelled). It was obviously very shady skeevy behavior on Mender's part. But it's also one of my favorites because I LOVED the dynamic he had with Yun and it's really when he got called out on his behavior by the younger sister, the one who was pretty much shamed and left disowned due to being deflowered. Bad, bad Mender. Absolutely terrible behavior. But I also loved that installment because it was just so damn interesting to read.
The art wasn't perfect but whatever, I liked the story. I can put up with a lot if I'm interested in the story Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:12 am

I actually kind of liked the art and I liked the dynamic between Mender and Yun.

He didn't get her killed or shamed and disowned but that's just because the young man eloped with her. I might disagree pretty sharply with the Pinis and EQ on the value of chaste behavior but I don't support the "totally ruined and must be cast out" line of thought either. And it's not like I don't know their bent at this point but I was very disappointed that they'd let such events play out as "Gee, humans and elves sure are different." The damage done to that girl is not trivial. He made her an accomplice in her own rape and tried to overwhelm her mind with sex magic when she had the temerity to cry about it. Unless that young man is very understanding, I dont see good things ahead for their marriage bed.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:24 am

@manga wrote:


He didn't get her killed or shamed and disowned .
That's surprising.
@manga wrote:
but that's just because the young man eloped with her.
Ugh, of course.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:37 am

I dunno, she was pretty close to being discarded ! She was strapped to some wheel or something , and wasn't she disowned by her father in that scene?? He was like, I don't have a daughter anymore. But then Mender came in and tried to save the situation by getting the two eloped. And yes, in the end they did. Still , before it reads like she was pretty much shamed. As for the marriage...well, the young man made some pretty stupid choices and almost got himself killed. It read like he also had his own baggage. So I feel like it could go two ways: We can have it be like she continues to be shamed, or they both have their baggage out in the open now and can't pretend to be hemmed in by typical society since their situations have separately gone so far beyond that.

I agree with all you're saying btw, Manga. I just still though it was interesting. I liked seeing it all happen, I liked how twisted Mender was, how much of an idiot... it was terrible. But it was also kind of 'real' in terms of I can totally see it happening. I did like the young woman who played the younger sister, how she kind of put Mender in his place by showing how careless he was. It's not surprising. Mr. Let Me Sexually Liberate You *was* nasty. But it was still for me an interesting read....I am a sucker for those types of story lines because they're very messy but it feels somehow more 'real' to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:46 am

@Zadzi wrote:
I dunno, she was pretty close to being discarded ! She was strapped to some wheel or something , and wasn't she disowned by her father in that scene?? He was like, I don't have a daughter anymore. But then Mender came in and tried to save the situation by getting the two eloped. And yes, in the end they did. Still , before it reads like she was pretty much shamed.
Yikes. They tied her to a breaking wheel? That worse than the thing I thought they'd do. (Ok, I'm not actually sure about that, now that I think about it)
I remember the father scene.
Honestly that scene and the scenes with Yun are the only thing I really remember.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:02 am

Oh, my bad... it wasn't a wheel. It was a tether lol. Still, pretty bad http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=MEN4&p=7

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:10 am

Hm. At least I got the whipping part right.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:13 am

@manga wrote:



That reminds me of one story-line I'm glad they seem to have ret-conned out of existence and that is, perhaps, an early example of the Pinis acting tone-deaf.  (Though the story was by others, so I'm not sure how much really lays at the Pinis' door.)  

IIRC, the story idea was Auklandas'.

By today's standards, yes, Mender's a rapist. Back when the story was published, though, it gets murky. I know a few people who were upset by Mender's behavior, but more who viewed it as seduction.

It'd be interesting to know the author's intent wrt Mender in this one.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:40 am

No, Davrille, I thought he was a rapist at the time. It's murkier with the older sister, it's true, but the younger sister was clearly forcing herself to submit and then crying and all Mender did was goggle in bewilderment and overwhelm her with magic.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:54 pm

Maybe the story was supposed to show how "unevolved" these (we) humans are? Maybe it was a play on our myths, when some god or hero steals a night with a woman (often virgin)? Or maybe it was to show how inkompatible the cultures are?

I like Mender, so I retconned it out of my head canon way before Wendy did it herself.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:16 pm

If someone doesn't want to have sex with you and you coerce and overwhelm them into it, that's not "incompatible cultures." I do think that "incompatible cultures" was the angle the writers were going for but I think they missed the mark. Badly.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:37 pm

Yes I read that story once. It was very bad.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:16 pm

That story was strange. I wasn't sure how to read it

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:18 pm

@manga wrote:
No, Davrille, I thought he was a rapist at the time.

Yeah. Same. But back then, the concept of lying to have sex with someone wasn't broadly seen as actual rape. A horrible thing to do, but not rape. We've made some progress since then.  

@Lunakat: I think Auklandas wanted to show how different the elves are in shades-of-grey. And it turned out to darker than she planned. But I'd like to know, because I like knowing what authors intended to put into their work. One, because it's often a fascinating contrast with what readers pick up, and two, I'm just nosy.  tongue
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:33 pm

@Lunakat wrote:
I agree. Which then raises the question-- where do we all fall on that spectrum? Because we have been pretty critical lately.

Individually, everyone has to decide for themselves.

As "we all"? Frankly, I'm seeing a whole lot of jealousy and "you're not doing what I want/you jossed my fanon!" criticism. I'm reminded of Harry Potter fandom after Half-Blood Prince came out. The fandom blew up. Too many people were far too invested in their own ideas of what should have happened and who the characters should be. It got ugly, and it got personal -- not just between fans, but at JKR herself.

At least no one's called Timmain a "filthy cunt of a beard" or wished Wendy had died during her hip surgery so their fanon would be safe. Yet.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:57 pm

@Davrille wrote:
@manga wrote:
No, Davrille, I thought he was a rapist at the time.

Yeah. Same. But back then, the concept of lying to have sex with someone wasn't broadly seen as actual rape. A horrible thing to do, but not rape. We've made some progress since then.  

No, his actions go beyond lying to have sex. As I've mentioned before, the younger sister clearly did not want to have sex with him AT ALL, even after she had bought the lie, yet he continued. She was crying and he basically responded by magically drugging her. This isn't "consent under false pretenses" it's "continuing with clear lack of consent."

@Davrille wrote:

@Lunakat: I think Auklandas wanted to show how different the elves are in shades-of-grey. And it turned out to darker than she planned. But I'd like to know, because I like knowing what authors intended to put into their work. One, because it's often a fascinating contrast with what readers pick up, and two, I'm just nosy.  tongue

Ditto. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:25 pm

@Davrille wrote:
@Lunakat wrote:
I agree. Which then raises the question-- where do we all fall on that spectrum? Because we have been pretty critical lately.

Individually, everyone has to decide for themselves.

As "we all"? Frankly, I'm seeing a whole lot of jealousy and "you're not doing what I want/you jossed my fanon!" criticism. I'm reminded of Harry Potter fandom after Half-Blood Prince came out.  The fandom blew up. Too many people were far too invested in their own ideas of what should have happened and who the characters should be. It got ugly, and it got personal -- not just between fans, but at JKR herself.

At least no one's called Timmain a "filthy cunt of a beard" or wished Wendy had died during her hip surgery so their fanon would be safe.  Yet.



Conversely, I'm not seeing much jealousy at all. What I perceive most often are people having an issue with the downturn of overall quality compared to the OQ, and (to a lesser extent, although it's a huge one for me personally) how badly W&R handle any feedback other than Stepford-wife-level bootlicking.

Yes, OQ was a long time ago, and Wendy is older now (as are we all!). I'm sure she and Richard are in many ways anxious to wrap this up and relax a little. And I'm sure they've had to deal with plenty of naysayers and toxic people along the way (*cough*themoviethatwillneverbemade*cough*).

That said, the way they treat people who DO love their work is pretty abysmal. Interactions like the scolding tone that is often so evident ("No no no!!! You need to see it THIS way!!!"), fishing for praise, etc. is, frankly, juvenile. It's painful to witness, especially coming from two grown-ass, ostensibly intelligent adults.

Yes, the quest in general and some of the characters (ranging from outfits to personalities) are going down paths I'm not wild about, but that disagreement hardly translates into jealousy. And I'm pretty sure I'm not feeling jealous about the real-life tantrum-prone attitudes described above.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:55 pm

Just a note-- I think Timmain might actually qualify as a beard in this current scenario

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:09 pm

I thought that would be Cutter?

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:17 pm

I think it works either way!

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:29 pm

*Shrugs*

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:02 pm

My question is, Is there a point where people here sort of started giving up on the comic once FQ kicked in? I'm curious as to when, or if they are still waiting, or if they are actually happy with the progressions? I did mention how for me it kind of went tits up post Shenshen story arc. The Rayek thing and the Timmain/Tam thing sort of did it and turned me off. I just stopped being able to relate at all. If I can't relate to the story anymore, I just don't know where I'm going.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:11 pm

@Lunakat wrote:
Just a note-- I think Timmain might actually qualify as a beard in this current scenario

Can you be your own beard, though?
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