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 racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion

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Bluetree

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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:44 pm

Thanks for hearing that, @those who did. Cutter Cool

Yes, this is an important topic. It certainly lit me up on many levels when I encountered it! Even if it weren't a complete and total derailment of the thread topic (which on most sites will earn you anything from verbal abuse to banhammering, especially when it really goes insane), it needs and deserves its own space.

While it has had its ugly and messy moments, it's very heartening to see people wanting to hear as well as be heard! That's such a refreshing change from what you too often encounter on the topic, especially in this day and age where social media has really upped the stakes on the look-at-ME!-hear-ME! game.

Also, I can confirm what Embala said: it leaves a really bad impression when someone-- especially a relative newcomer-- searching for communion/ information on a subject instead finds an ugly-ass virtual barroom brawl, just like one they could find in any armpit of the internet. Yall are better than this. Take the fight out back. K?

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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:49 pm

Well said!

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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:50 pm

@Elwing wrote:
Coming into a dedicated fan forum of any kind and yelling that the whole thing is "racist from day one" would get you banned anywhere else.

Then I'm glad NOT being anywhere else.
I was only very intrigued and curious about the PRECISE elements that could trigger such a statement.

I'm still waiting for Namutna to present at least some of those elements, each preferrably accompanied with a clear explanation.

But I won't press more if this subject gets THAT bothering, for most persons, here.

Might as well let the discussion come back to #18 of the Final Quest.

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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:59 pm

Okay - it's time to call Nibblet or Kin for some spring cleaning.

Judging from their recent posts both are super busy and I don't know know how long it will take for one of them to drop in. I'll contact Nibblet first.

@Nibblet We need your help to split and move this thread!


EDIT: scratch  ... last time we checked the @call did not work. I'll PM her to be sure.

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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:21 pm

Apologies for the thread being locked temporarily. I wanted some time to step in for a moment

I'm not posting here to announce/warn about any banning.  Not over a conversation/discussion that's getting heated. I've seen far worse in the old Scrolls forum. The abortion thread got nastier than this.

What I do want to post is a reminder of RESPECT to one another, and those wise old words, "We can agree to disagree"

I will admit that some comments have gone too far, even though there's the Freedom of Speech I firmly believe in. Yes, everyone is entitled to their beloved opinion and everyone here is entitled to freedom of speech.

But that does NOT mean there are no consequences for exercising that freedom.

Allow me to point out to all of you a prime example of consequence that has already happened due  to things that have been said in this discussion.

We had a new member register to Father Tree. By the time Nibblet arrived to "activate" this person's account, they already PM'd her, asking her to delete their account due to the hostility they read in this thread.

Let that sink in before you type any further.

Thread is now unlocked.

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Elwing

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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:11 am

I have to say I'm glad nobody was banned. I think there would be need for that if this were carried on, but for now, we are just a small and vulnerable community of fans. let's try to get along.
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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:29 pm

No way-- we had a new member! Wild!

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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:11 pm

I was very sorry when I heard that it has already happened. That a potentional tribemate was shooed away by this heated discussion. It makes me sad ... Sad

... as much as I'm happy that the thread is unlocked again. Smile

And I wonder if the newbie's reaction would have been the same if this discussion would have taken place in a thread dedicated to this topic ... instead here where you'd expect a more FQ centered comments. What brings me back to the "split and move" ...

You can avoid threads with topics you are not interested in or don't wont to deal with at the moment. You hardly can when it comes up at full length at unexpected places.

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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:50 pm

Key word, Luna... had

Embala, as for splitting the thread, I'll see what I can do when I'm on my laptop later tonight. On my phone at the moment and I need to get some things done for work first Smile

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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:20 pm

no worries, I'm on it Wink

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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:47 pm

Thanks guys!

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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:49 pm

Thank you guys for allowing this convo to continue, I think it's really well done of you all to not just shut it down. I'm sorry we sent a possible new member running for the hills. I hope we can continue to have our convos about all this here, and keep the dialogue open and listen to each other.
I think this is the only forum online about EQ which has made a thread about Racial Perception in EQ (great title btw) and kept it open for discussion. I don't know of many other places, but I think I can really say with confidence this is the only place, and I think it's awesome. We have a lot of intelligent, passionate people here, and the age range as well as the location and the perception is very diverse, so I look forward to reading more of what people have to say!

Thank you again XO

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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:56 am

well...this was an interesting thread to read...oddly enough, it actually kinda helped to snap me out of a near week depression, despite the...best words i can find being anxiety and slight fear i felt at the emotions going between people. i'm torn between speaking my mind and inviting retaliation from those concerned, or keeping my silence and the peace.

also seriously? there was an abortion thread? wow.

...anyway, if i could share a personal experience...it's one of the experiences in my life that i'm most ashamed of, and...a bit proud of.

i met my boyfriend online, on yahoo, back when i roleplayed and yahoo was a popular messenger. i was going through a tough time, and he helped me in so many ways..and we grew closer, and decided to give a relationship a try. it got to the point after a couple years, we decided to meet, face to face. i was so excited, and nervous, and anxious. butterflies in my stomach. i imagined this touching meeting like out of a movie, embracing each other upon first sight and constantly holding hands.

it wasn't like that at all. we didn't recognize each other at first. in all honesty, when i first saw him...i thought he had mental issues. mildly mentally handicapped. it wasn't until he called my phone, wondering where i was, did we realize who each other was. and i got a punch to the gut.

he still remembers this, though i only vaguely do. i kept staring at him the entire drive home. i didn't hold his hand much. i was having...so much trouble, aligning the voice on the phone that i loved with the man sitting beside me. it felt like i was meeting a stranger, and it hurt.

it wasn't until a few days...or maybe a week later? that i realized the truth, after breaking down and having him call me from another room just for that familiarity, to reassure myself the man i loved still existed. i realized why, despite seeing him on webcam many times before, i was having troubles connecting with him. i was having trouble because he was black. and i was...horrified is the worst understatement i can imagine.

i broke down and told him i was having these thoughts. i told him even though i knew it would hurt him...and it did. but i told him because i wanted to be open. i told him BECAUSE i wanted to get past it. i had to sit myself down and have a serious hard heart to heart talk with myself. here i was, confronted with a sweet, funny, deeply caring man, who had loads of quirks and admirable dreams, who has always stood by me and helped me in my darkest times. was i willing to give that up, because of his skin color, and it maybe didn't match what i had always subconciously thought growing up?

i decided i wasn't. i would be a fool to give such a great man up because of such an uncontrollable thing. and as the years got better, i'm happy to say it hasn't been an issue for many years. i'm happy to say we've been together eight years, and we want to spend our lives together. i learned to love him as himself.

it still causes me pain to remember...and i wish it had never happened. but it did. and it's a sad truth i think is applicable to everybody in the world. we're probably all a little biased in our subconcious. but this doesn't make anyone a bad person.

i'm pretty damn sure it's a hardwiring for the brain...there have been studies that show even babies unable to talk show a "racist" behavior, in that they express fear to unfamiliar features, and only accept familiar features. an example would be an asian baby expressing fear to a caucasian person, or african american, or any nationality that doesn't look asian.

this is why i don't hold it against anyone if they do have these subconcious bias. as long as it's not actually hurting anyone, or they're not trying to hurt..i'm good. no one's perfect. you can think whatever you want, as long as you're not trying to put action to it.

i suppose that's why any implied or subconcious racism doesn't really bother me in Elfquest. there's no action behind it. This is why the whole "whitewashing" of the Sun Folk doesn't really bother me...it does a little in all honesty, but not enough that i'd want to take up arms about it or anything.

i feel like i've rambled enough, and i feel like i haven't really been able to make as much of a point as i'd like to. i guess i'd just really like to try and provide a prospective where i can see where everyone is coming from, and i can agree with some of it just as i disagree with some of it. *cough*...thank you if you took the time to read this ridiculously long and probably pointless post.
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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:02 am

Vaeri, you just have a great big heart. And yes, I just read your entire post. And I think you're awesome Hug

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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:12 am

thank you zadzi. i'm just kinda sitting here with my head hung, waiting for the backlash. reflexive reaction...XD

i am glad i got past that racist line of thinking. but i'm probably still a little racist in other areas i'm not aware of. but they don't seem to have any impact on anything important in my life, so i guess i haven't had any reason to confront them.

i really just want to be a "live and let live" sort of person...which is why i say the whole as long as there is no action behind harmful thinking, i'm content to ignore it, let it roll off my shoulders, so on and so forth.

thoughts never killed anyone, but action has.
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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:45 am

I know what you're saying.  I think a lot of what this has to do with is stereotypes which are so dug in, a lot of us are maybe unconscious of them or not looking at them. Or some of us are just more sensitive to them. I think it's a healthy dialogue in the right context (like this thread is not awesome because it gets to breathe its own life).


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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:08 am

Uhm... I feel like I might have accidentally started a bit of this by expressing my happiness that the humans of Iceholt are gonna fight against the Djunlanders. Embarassed
I honestly don't see it as native people being used for shock-vallue and cannon-fodder, but quite the opposite; For me it simply shows that those people are/will be showing strength by decided that even though this invading army is far stronger they're not gonna take it. I see it as a step away from the innocent people being slaughtered by the Djunmen, which has been a bit of a theme during Final Quest.
First the Longriders, who - when you think about it - might have been on the last groups not under the Djuns' rule. Though at least in this case Angrif had the "excuse" of "needing to" as a tactical advantage.
Then the fishing village. No "excuses" here! It seemed as if they were just being attacked because they were in the way/just there. Of course the fact that the old guy - Korafay's "friend" - had an elf-doll probably didn't help matters either, but surely the Djunmen didn't know he had it before they attacked the village.
It's not as if the people of Iceholt would be left alone if they decided not to fight against the Djunlanders, they'd probably just be trampled underfoot...
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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:07 pm

You have not started this, Redhead Ember ... not even accidentally. Hug

Thank you for sharing, Vaeri. Don't fear a possible backlash too much ... I've learned - I'm still learning! - that there'll be support and agreement to balance it. I can relate to a lot of your feelings and problems to cope.

@Vaeri wrote:
...anyway, if i could share a personal experience...it's one of the experiences in my life that i'm most ashamed of, and...a bit proud of.
You should be as least as proud as ahamed! True, you've carried old "racist" (still wish to have another term) patterns but you've managed to overcome old unconsciously learned prejudice and reservations by love and common sense. And you got rewarded as far as I can tell. Very Happy Your boyfriend must be a great guy, understanding, supporting and loving. Good luck for your future.

Wonderful story about your stepfather and mother "switching" on the awareness of racist traits, Zadzi. For me it's an excellent example that changing a habit, learning and becoming active needs not only good will, example,love and reason ... but time as well.
Uhm ... *blinks* Where IS this shared example? Shocked ... I've not dreamt it ... Gone. That's a pity.

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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:10 am

@Embala  - Yeah that was weird. I came in to add something and a chunk of it got deleted due to some Wifi problems I'm having lately. And I was like grrrr, erase it all, because it got very frustrating. It was the middle of the night and I literally woke up and was walking around, then decided, half asleep, to add another story to this LOL. Something about my stepdad's messed up past.
And then I began to wonder if I what I posted was somehow too intimate somehow, and that's why I was having Wfii problems LOL (overthinking can do that). All I have are personal experiences though, and I have been lucky enough to have some (I think) timely ones. My upbringing has been rich and rewarding and really confusing actually, only now that I look at it in retrospect, it's very much about diversifying. I had no idea how lucky I was until only a few years ago. I was lucky, I was always in the soup pot lol. It was always too messy but there's never been a dull moment lol
I can't help it, a lot of my work is very confessional in writing - and it obviously comes out in such posts. I should save it for 'the page' Rolling Eyes ... but sometimes I feel like Ooooh, this is so appropriate so I HAVR to write it. Rolling Eyes
Lots of other stories shall be posted here eventually I'm sure... just in a more abbreviated way Wink

For now, though I am happy to read others' opinions and feelings and stories. I'm always interested in how people live and think and how they feel. I think belief systems and perceptions and how people are raised and how they break out or how they go along with it is just so fascinating. Not in a 'I want to pull wings off an insect' way of interesting, but I just love hearing personal accounts, such as your Embala, and how you came to personal realizations, and how it processes, etc. It's just really interesting.

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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:53 am

@ Vaeri: Thank you for sharing! I think it's natural for us to perceive anybody we haven't seen yet akin to ourselves. There is no 'racism' involved when we communicate to somebody within our own sphere of perception. I mean, if your friend had stated he was from China, India or Kenya, I imagine you would have had a different visual impression of him, wouldn't you? I'm glad it worked out so well for you both!

I think I was plain lucky to grow up next to a big city with a big harbour as a kid of a tallyman dealing with people from all over the world. I was never scared by anything skin-deep, be it skin colour or tattoos - I embraced diversity even as a small child. Rather, I was fascinated by it. Maybe it's due to my visual impairment but even today I just don't notice differences in colour like other people do. Convo with a neighbour: "There are new folks running the kiosk." - "Yeah, lovely guys, much nicer than the folks before!" - "They look kinda Asian..." - "Well, they're named Nguyen, so they're most likely from Vietnam." - "Does it not bother you?" - "What?"

And so on. I could tell you stories that... but I think that's enough off topic. Animosity towards foreigners is usually most prevalent where no foreigners have ever been. Eastern Germany is a sad and scary example. Next year my Japanese friends want to come over to visit Germany and I'll be doing my best to keep them from the impressions that they would surely meet in the eastern states.

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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:18 am

Yay,  Stormcatcher! So glad  you posted!
What's' the deal with east Germany, why is it scary? I'm really not familiar with that part of the world in terms of attitudes. I know I sound dumb, but how are West and East Germany different in terms of such issues, I heard some stuff about this some time ago but really...it was some time ago and I'm curious about the differences.
If Stormcatcher doesn't want to talk to me and has had his/her full of this subject then if anyone else living in Europe can say something , that can be awesome. ON the this side of the pond, we don't get much info.

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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:43 am

Here's another pretty cool - at least in my opinion - thing I just realised.
The fact that the people of Iceholt will be fighting could be seen as proof that Shuna's teachings has actually worked and the humans understand that the elves are really just people! After all, if they still thought the elves were these all-powerfull spirits wouldn't their reaction be something akind to "Help us, great spirits!"?
Now, however, it seems as if they understand - and accept - that the elves really can't just whipe the invading army out, that the elves aren't stronger than they are.
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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:02 am

Nah, Zadzi, you don't sound dumb at all! 25 years after reunification Germany is still splitted into an international western and a much more secluded eastern part that once formed the GDR.  During those days foreign workers were kept apart from the rest of the population and when the system collapsed east Germans found themselves face-to-face with mainly Vietnamese and Kongolese people (and other folks from former communist brother-states).  Meanwhile, in Western Germany people got to know all kinds of people, Indian or Chinese restaurant owners, Arab traders, African art shop keepers to name but a few, anything.  Bereaved of this positive experience, an alarming number of east Germans (and a number growing in the west) turned to reactionary and racist movements such as the Reichsbürger, PEGIDA and AfD.  This concerns me no end, if you like I can provide you with links for further information.

My attitude to skin colour was summed up rather nicely in a dialogue in the British TV series "The Professionals"/episode "Klansmen":

(Agent Doyle talks to his boss Cowley on the phone)
Tommy (a black boy witness): This Mr Cowley... is he white or black?
Doyle: I forgot to ask!

Watch it, it's a late-70s-mark on how to deal with racism!

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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:46 am

@Stormcatcher - I've heard a little bit about this but I've a very limited understanding, so yeah I'd love to read up on any links you might have to get a better idea. I'll take a look at the series, I've never even heard of it.

It's true though, there's always a reactionary sect/group of people who freak out... we have it happening here too in the US (a lot of it too, it flares up like a hemorrhoid every once in a while).

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PostSubject: Re: racial perception in ElfQuest - split from issue #18 discussion   Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:52 am

that's an absolutely great quote Stormcatcher...made me giggle! and that's so cool you got to grow up near a harbor and got to meet so many people!

Off hand note:
 

honestly i think that's why the whole "Shuna might lead the charge of Iceholt" doesn't bother me. if it was a native or Shuna, or someone else, i wouldn't give it a second thought. hell i wouldn't give it a second thought if an elf led them...or elf changed to human :p it's just "hey this person has the guts to lead them, they're gonna lead them" i think more of it's personality rather than skin color.

also does it make me racist that every time Zadzi mentions she's egyptian, i want to smother her in huggles and dress her up like an ancient egyptian...?^^0 or maybe that just shows how ancient egyptian obsessed i am...eheh....

OMG THIS IS WHAT I NEED, AN EGYPTIAN SUN VILLAGER ELF CHARACTER!!!*runs to create*
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