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Redhead Ember

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:40 am

"We're going to war tomorrow and might all die. Weeeee! LET'S HAVE SEX!"
"We just learned how our legendary chieftess - and the mother of our current chieftess - died. Weeeee! LET'S HAVE SEX!"
"There's a big gathering of all the chiefs. Weeeee! LET'S HAVE SEX!"
"Two guys we hardly even know have become lifemates. Weeeee! LET'S HAVE SEX!"

Yes, I know... we didn't actually see an orgy during the Gathering of Chiefs, but I'm sure it happened. And judging by the cover of issue 20, we're gonna have another one.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:29 am

Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:33 pm

@Redhead Ember wrote:
As for the party; well... do the Go-Backs really need an excuse to have a party?
This!

rofl

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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:38 pm

@Redhead Ember wrote:
It just doesn't matter to me that we didn't get to see every detail of the growing relationship between them, we've seen hints, they're together now, and it seems right to me.


Matters to me. It's storytelling. It's like Cinderella never went to the ball but just lived happily ever after when the fairy godmother gave her a nice dress. *shrug* So what. Nothing emotionally invested. The whole thing feels shallow to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:03 pm

@manga wrote:
Lunakat, I'm pretty sure we did see exactly that with Windkin dropping Ahdri and hooking up with Aroree. Or did you do that on purpose?

Yes I did that on purpose

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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:04 pm

@Miss Gillespie wrote:

Windkin and his affection for Ahdri is also strange. He supposedly mourned her loss so much, that he'd rather spend the rest of his days in her spirit's present than instead look for another group. And he actually did do this for a couple of decades. Then he meets her again and is off short time later. Uhm...?

Exactly (see above)

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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:10 pm

@Prism wrote:
Prior to Final Quest,there was little to zero Dart/Mender interaction drawn by Wendy. This included Hidden Years Going Back or even further,Kings of the Broken Wheel. Which makes zero sense considering they spent well over 500 years together in Sorrow's End and both were woken up off and on as needed. Same goes for Pike/Yun,who despite dozens of years as teammates in Wild Hunt were never shown as close or even interacting at all! At least with Treestump/Clearbrook,they were established as old friends early on and there was build-up to their life-mating. Wendy seems to have lost that. And the whole thing reeks of pandering to a certain fanbase,much like with the anti-gun and pro-choice agendas. She's lost the ability to be subtle.

I agree with what you said here about the story. I have no idea what it has to do with guns or being prochoice, though (i'm pro-choice, and clearly this doesn't pander to me!).

What I see it as a response to is the fact that we specifically, as fans, asked to see a same sex relationship in the comic that was given as much weight and importance as a heterosexual relationship. Wendy gave it to us in the form of Dart and Mender, but unlike other prominent relationships (Cutter/Leetah, Skywise/Timmain, even Skywise/Ruffel, Ember/Teir, Redlance/Nightfall, Strongbow/Moonshade, and yes, even Sunstream/Brill and Korafaye/Reef), it wasn't woven into the story. It wasn't part of the development or identity of the characters. It was just plopped in there, like "ta da!" -- and that's why it feels abrupt and token.

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Redhead Ember

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:22 pm

@Zadzi wrote:
@Redhead Ember wrote:
It just doesn't matter to me that we didn't get to see every detail of the growing relationship between them, we've seen hints, they're together now, and it seems right to me.


Matters to me. It's storytelling. It's like Cinderella never went to the ball but just lived happily ever after when the fairy godmother gave her a nice dress. *shrug* So what. Nothing emotionally invested. The whole thing feels shallow to me.

Except in this case Dart and Mender had plenty - if offscreen - time to grow close, whereas Cinderella and the Prince fell in love during one party.
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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:06 am

Off screen doesn't count in terms of storytelling. Cinder's whole life story counted on rescue. Gross, I know, but you know, fairytale.

You ain't convincing me to think otherwise, girl! Razz Sorry, I know you love it, I just can't connect to it anymore. I'm committed but this is like a relationship where I've fallen out of love and I'm just determined to see it through to the bitter end.
And then I'll have to get therapy probably LOL

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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:09 am

I was never a big fan of Sunstream and Brill either btw but I think it was for different reasons. They almost seem too much alike or something. I just never cared for Brill though. And I thought Suntop became sort of boring with all his mesh shirts.

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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:48 am

at what point did Mender fall in love with Dart? Why did he fall in love with Dart? What about Dart made him ready to make a lifetime commitment when before he had only been interested in dallying? Describe a meaningful interaction they had (on or off screen) in which their relationship moved to a new level. (Other than the one in which Mender asked Dart out).

At what point did Dart fall in love with Mender? Why Mender? What about Mende made him want to settle down when no one else, including the person he recognized and had a child with, was able to? What special characteristics of Mender did fe respond to and feel intimately connected with?

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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:42 am

On the other hand-- it's just a comic book. Maybe what's the point in over thinking it? Or expecting more than just entertainment from it...

But then- why are we all here? i don't think I've ever found myself saying "well, it's just a comic book" about Elfquest before.

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Redhead Ember

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:45 am

But isn't a part of good storytelling to be able to show that life goes on for the characters, even when there isn't a "camera" on them?
Just like in the Hobbit - book, not movies - we never actually got to see what Gandalf got up those times he left the Company, but we know he didn't just sit down and the nearest inn.
Or Harry Potter, we never saw what happened at Hogwarts while the trio was on their little "field trip", but we know a lot of things happened.

As for how they fell in love: Well... at first it might simply have been a major crush on Dart, which then - slowly - over the course of the years, grew to a strong relationship. No specific moments - other than those we were shown - simply two people gradually growing closer over the years.
And Dart not settling with Serrin? He did! He was lifemates with her - and Talmah - for several years while raising Bowki. However, at that time the loss of Shushen, and the carnage of the battle, was still too recent for him. Now, otoh, it's been several decades so he's ready to move on, helped by the fact that we know Mender is willing to share his pain.

It's "just" a comic book. However, all stories to some extend mirror life.
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jaRf

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:11 am

Found mine yesterday evening in the mailbox but had not time yet to read it. Just flipped though the pages. New outfit on Rayek. Ah-huh. Lasers indeed but I still like it. Wink
And yes, wasn't there something with a grandchild? What about it? Damn!
Why is there so litte screentime for everything.
Glancing at the discussion here it seems so, too, for other characters or couples. I don't like rushed stories where you have to put two thirds inbetween the appearances and guess it all for yourself or speculate what could have happened. Having like 2 or 3 months inbetween the comics also doesn't help it. I wondered why Ember and Cutter were having that playful fight. What was their motivation? Need to re-read the last issue...
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Redhead Ember

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:11 am

I think the motivation were simply having a bit of fun.
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Miss Gillespie

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:16 am

There used to be silent and implicit moments in EQ. The friendship between Moonshade and Rainsong was never explicitly mentioned, but it was there in the background if you wanted to see it.
We don't know if that high one dude recognised Timmain or if he was only in love with her. We don't know if there was -ever- anything between Skywise and Tyleet. But if there would have ever been any stories built up on those hints, it would've been natural.

We knew, or had strong reason to think so, that Mender and Dart would end up being together, since Wendy mentioned, that there would be a same sex couple. There was a brief antagonism between those two, we never saw how that was solved (Dart accused Mender of being like Winnowill, that's pretty heavy!). Next time they are suddenly the bestest of friends and the rest is history.

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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:12 pm

@Redhead- notice how everything you said about them is prefaced by speculation. That's actually not good storytelling.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:51 pm

@Miss Gillespie wrote:
There used to be silent and implicit moments in EQ. {...}

Right, and they don't get conveyed anymore. "Sudden" developments could often be foreshadowed via background business or subtler foreground interactions, and outright "surprises" didn't feel like a slapped-on afterthought.

Concur with everyone who feels the storytelling aspect is gone. It's just one brightly-colored "shocker!!!!" after another in FQ, which is fine if you think MTV is a great channel.

On a semi-related note, I just had a look around over at elfquestfanart, and found the "refugee" thread after the SoC was shut down. Gahd, do the Pinis have any regard left for long-term fans whose lips aren't surgically attached to their asses?

ETA: Credit where credit's due, this issue does have a goodly amount of original art and subplots moving forward.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:20 pm

@Zadzi wrote:
As usual, Wisp sums up all my thoughts and feelings perfectly in terms of issues with...the issue Smile

I think you and I have been on the same emotional journey with respect to FQ, Zadzi! At this point, it's either laugh or cry!

The debate about the merits of Dart/Mender is interesting. I don't think the problem most people have stems from insufficient "screentime" for the pair. There was plenty of screentime, more than some well-established couples got in the OQ. Wendy just used to be a lot better at conveying a lot with visual and emotional efficiency. I think about Clearbrook and Treestump during the Go-Back orgy, fully clothed, hunched together in grief/solidarity. The seed of their future pairing was right there in one background image. We saw a hug a few issues later, when Clearbrook gets a chance to comfort Treestump in return. Essentially, two panels set up their dynamic, and I never had any trouble believing in them or understanding them. Or Pike and Vaya--talk about bang for the buck! We again see them in the background with the Go-Backs and then we get one brief battlescene that packs a punch.

I do not connect with Dart/Mender because I find their connection insipid. Pike/Vaya had more passion and pathos in one panel than I've seen in half a dozen pages of Dart/Mender. And it's crazy because it could have been good. There was something interesting in the way Dart "mistrusted" Mender's vindictive side; that should have been the hook, but it never went anywhere. We can invent off-screen justifications, but that's just head-canon. This was a failure of storytelling, visual or otherwise. Like Sifra said somewhere above, a decent fanfic writer (or even a trope-exploiting manga author) could have come up with a more compelling story for sure.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:18 pm

I loved the scene where Strongbow tells everyone to stop flapping their jaws and if they are going to get off the planet, go ahead and do it already! Let everyone else get back to doing whatever the hell they want.

And when Timmain admitted that she didn't know anything about how the Palace actually flies and that's why they needed the old troll. And how the Palace responded when the old troll returned and it was finally re-united with its true master!

And when it was revealed that the Palace needed a blood sacrifice, and Door willing offered himself so he could be one with the rocks of the homeworld. It was quite touching, actually.

Oops...sorry. None of that happened. Nothing happened.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:21 pm

Outlier I wish I could have read that. It sounds good! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:38 pm

Sorry, after I wrote that I realized that I am showing my disappointment by being facetious.

I do feel this issue is kind of boring. I found myself reading a lot of it and feeling like I just didn't care about anything it was saying. In my head it was just "blah, blah, blah." And I still feel that the Pinis are more interesting in having this dialog that sounds impressive and dramatic, but just makes it hard to understand.

With the original quest, I would read and re-read each issue. I keep thinking I need to do that to make sense of the final quest, but I only feel dread at the prospect of doing that. It's like re-reading an old math text.

I never really cared for the Forevergreen stories (although I did think the dark scenes at the end were the only work of Blair's that I liked), but I find the only part in this issue that I like are the few panels of Door and Chot. I'm not sure I understand what Door is going on about, but it at least has me interested, which is not something that's happened too much in this series.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:53 pm

So Cutter's retiring, Door's up to no good, the Palace might take ten more years to leave, and Wavedancers ship Korafay/Reef. That's about the size of it.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:20 pm

@Outlier wrote:
Oops...sorry. None of that happened. Nothing happened.
Awww... I want this issue! study (Okay, not necessarily the blood sacrifice part. ^^)

You were very convincing, Outlier! For a moment is was ...

Shocked How could I have missed ... scratch *slaps head* ... :rofl

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:05 am

@Outlier wrote:
None of that happened. Nothing happened.

And that right there is the problem with FQ. It endlessly promises, but delivers nothing. By issue 19 of OQ the Wolfriders had been burnt out of their home, been tricked by the trolls, crossed the desert, met the Sun Folk, Cutter recognised Leetah and had the twins, and so on and so on, until finally the battle for the palace. A lot happened. But FQ is a series of disjointed episodes that never seem to go anywhere. Sometimes there is a brief build up to something, but the resolution is too quick and too easy. Even meeting interesting new tribes is somehow a bit flat. The fungus guys were interesting but nothing happened with them, and now they seem to have disappeared again; the fire elves were simply mentioned in passing and we never even got to meet them. Simply put - there is no story.
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