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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:54 am

Zadzi summed up my feelings about the Dart/Mender thing. Dart and Kimo would have seemed natural and believable. Mender...not so much. It really does come off as the Pinis trying to wave around their progressive credentials, but why on earth they didn't just go with Kimo baffles me. A lot of fans already thought they were a couple! Instead they punted Kimo off with Shuna and brought in the most unlikely pairing. Also, what's the deal with the celebration? It very much seemed like a wedding, which goes against everything we've been told about how elves view lifemating.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:40 am

I agree that the Dart/Mender relationship has no chemistry/feeling of bonding to it whatsoever, despite the Pini's attempts. The storyline seems completely unnessecairy to the rest of the story, and feels mostly as a token gay couple thing.
I also agree that there was more going on with Dart and Kimo. They seemed to genuinely care about each other and their personality's seemed to match so well. I don't understand the nessecity of the whole storyline Kimo got as soon as Wendy took him over. (Meaning his ability to shapeshift and his "friendship" with Shuna.)
I would have liked it better if they had paired Dart up with Kimo, and if they would have done so a long time ago.
I am glad Dart finally gets some love and he's able to cuddle with someone and it's actually shown. (I'm thinking of drawing a cuddle scene between Dart and Kimo so I can use it in my banner because most Barry Blair art of them together is very ugly and I do want them together and showing some bonding.)

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:13 am

Yeah-- that's the thing I don't like about Dart and Mender. It's completely out of the blue. With a character other than Dart, I think I would have liked that. For example-- if Freetouch decided to mate with a girl, for example. Because the thing about Freetouch is, we don't know anything about her yet. So any information they introduced would have been character building. But with Dart and Mender...

Well, we know Dart is the type to get attached. He just is. He had that relationship with ShuShen that he never got over-- to the point of needing to sleep for over a thousand years. He woke up to properly recognize and raise his child to adulthood-- which shows commitment as well. Then went back to sleep because he still wasn't over it. Then.. the character he was shown to be most attached to after that was Kimo-- and the whole thing was a slow build. If Dart were going to have a relationship again, a lifemating-- Kimo was the one there was most development with. It would have been natural and made the most sense. There was all sorts of lead up to it. But instead-- he tells Kimo (via flickering candle metaphor) that he can't commit-- which we pretty much know is against his character-- and Kimo is like... 'if you ever figure it out, let me know.'

Then, along comes Mender. Mender, the character who has legitimately demonstrated over and over that he either can't commit or doesn't want to. Mender, the playboy. Mender who has never shown interest in Dart in a romantic way ever before in the story. Mender, who has never expressed an urge to be settled down. Mender, who has barely interacted with Dart outside of the Forevergreen storyline (in which the Kimo/Dart relationship was built up). Mender-- suddenly wants a life-mate and is in love with Dart.

Yeah- it can be made to fit-- but it feels unnatural to the characters. It wasn't set up in the story. It does feel like it's the token gay relationship that was inserted to satisfy fans-- because we did ask for a same-sex relationship.

On one hand, this is Wendy listening to us and giving us what we directly asked for. So is it a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of thing? I don't know. On the other hand, I think it could have been incorporated much more thoughtfully and carefully into the storyline. I could buy Dart and Mender if there had been any set up for it-- but it seems pretty random as is.

And in the end, Kimo says "finally!" Like he's been waiting for this to happen. For Dart and Mender to hook up? Since when? In what scene ever did he witness them having sexual tension? He couldn't have been waiting more than a minute.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:40 am

To me the beauty of the relationship between Dart and Kimo is that it's not romantic. They clearly care deeply for each other - as most evident with Dart's reaction when Kimo got wounded during SaTS - but it's not romantic, it doesn't have to be. Their relationship is beautiful as it is.
And actually, it was Dart who told Kimo the "If you ever see a steady glow, let me know." line, which I guess could be read as "If you ever think I've figured it out, let me know."
Besides; why does everybody keep saying that the relationship between Dart and Mender was sudden? It was ten years! Another also non-fuelled-by-Recognition lifemating (Skot, Krim, and Pike) happened within just three years. So, there has been plenty of changes for Kimo to witness the gradually growing relationship between Dart and Mender, and maybe shipping people just runs in the family... remember Lutei's reaction when Newstar bumped into Ohler?
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:20 am

Redhead I agree that any Wendy-drawn interaction between Kimo and Dart is as romantic as a doorknob. When Wendy took them back into her own storyline after New Blood, she saw them as friends, and no more than that, so that's how she showed them to behave like. But in New Blood they definetely had something going on. In my opinion they also had different personalities once Wendy had taken them over.

I also agree that Dart and Mender didn't happen "sudden". It was just bad storytelling, that's all.


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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:44 pm

It happened in two, maybe three issues.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:12 pm

Prior to Final Quest,there was little to zero Dart/Mender interaction drawn by Wendy. This included Hidden Years Going Back or even further,Kings of the Broken Wheel. Which makes zero sense considering they spent well over 500 years together in Sorrow's End and both were woken up off and on as needed. Same goes for Pike/Yun,who despite dozens of years as teammates in Wild Hunt were never shown as close or even interacting at all! At least with Treestump/Clearbrook,they were established as old friends early on and there was build-up to their life-mating. Wendy seems to have lost that. And the whole thing reeks of pandering to a certain fanbase,much like with the anti-gun and pro-choice agendas. She's lost the ability to be subtle.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:55 pm

Lunakat wrote:
It happened in two, maybe three issues.

Their first (shown) conversation in issue 7 to becoming lifemates in issue 19, I'd say that's a bit more than two-three issues, including a ten-year timeskip. Just because it wasn't shown in every issue doesn't mean it didn't happen.

---

Well... in KoBW Mender was three, basically the baby of Sorrow's End, while Dart was already busy leading the Jackwolfriders. Not much reason for them to interact.

---

About Dart and Kimo: Simply say that they were a romantic couple during the Forevergreen, and then decided they were better off as friends.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:40 pm

@Redhead. Yes, it's been '10 years' but there's a difference between being told 'it's been ten years' and being shown 10 years worth of intimacy.
It's like this: I sit down with a good friend I haven't seen in a long time, who tells me 10 years ago he started seeing someone interesting who he's never given the time of day before, and then tells me he's now getting married. I'd be like OMG congrats! So, what's it been like , what's the relationship like? What made this person 'the one' for you? I know for years you SO were not into commitment , especially after ___ died. And then my friend just shrugs and says, We're getting married now, and I go, Oh ok. Well, congrats I guess?

I think maybe you're good with trusting what's being told to you directly , Redhead, in this story since you really connect to it so you have an unwavering faith. Me? I need more juicy bits. 3 random scenes do not a life mating make for me, even if I've been told 'it's been 10 years'.
We're gonna agree to disagree here!

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:43 pm

Prism wrote:
Prior to Final Quest,there was little to zero Dart/Mender interaction drawn by Wendy. This included Hidden Years Going Back or even further,Kings of the Broken Wheel. Which makes zero sense considering they spent well over 500 years together in Sorrow's End and both were woken up off and on as needed. Same goes for Pike/Yun,who despite dozens of years as teammates in Wild Hunt were never shown as close or even interacting at all! At least with Treestump/Clearbrook,they were established as old friends early on and there was build-up to their life-mating. Wendy seems to have lost that. And the whole thing reeks of pandering to a certain fanbase,much like with the anti-gun and pro-choice agendas. She's lost the ability to be subtle.

I don't mind agendas in narrative at all, I just don't want to be clobbered with them so they take me out of the storyline. I'm anti-gun and pro-choice and I still don't like how this is being done. Preaching to the choir is dull fare.

Also, what's the Yun/Pike thing, did I miss something?

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:48 am

--not to beat a dead horse, but...---

Imagine, that for some reason, Winnowill got brought back to live and was healed*in one issue. In the same issue, the elves acknowledge, that she is not "evil" anymore. Between this issue and the next is a 100 year time lapse and no one talk of her former self any more. Sure, we are told how things are now, but we, as the reader, don't feel them. Such a solution is highly unsatisfying.
Actually it's the same thing with Moonshade** and the palace dwellers and their fascination with the palace. We are told how super-duper the palace is, but it doesn't feel like that.
In a visual medium you have to show things.


*as if her character and motivations were some physical problems

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:09 am

Zadzi wrote:
Also, what's the Yun/Pike thing, did I miss something?

He seems to like how she (due to her wolfblood) smells, if that one panel in that one issue is anything to go by. (I forget which issue it's in because him talking so much about her smell seriously squicked me out for some odd reason)

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:16 am

shouldn't they all have the same "wolfblood smell", since they all descend from only one wolf?

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:22 am

I'd think so too. I got the notion Yun's blood is somehow 'newer' to their senses and really reminds them of simpler times?

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:53 pm

I had an interesting thought about Chandra in light of the hints we were given in number 19 about elves living among humans. What If instead of being a magically gifted human she is in fact an elf and perhaps just doesn't know it? Or even knows it and has kept it secret?
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:23 pm

That seems possible Manga. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:30 pm

Redhead Ember wrote:
Lunakat wrote:
It happened in two, maybe three issues.

Their first (shown) conversation in issue 7 to becoming lifemates in issue 19, I'd say that's a bit more than two-three issues, including a ten-year timeskip. Just because it wasn't shown in every issue doesn't mean it didn't happen.
But how many actual issues do we see them interacting in?

Quote :

Well... in KoBW Mender was three, basically the baby of Sorrow's End, while Dart was already busy leading the Jackwolfriders. Not much reason for them to interact.
Right. But there has a bit a lot of story since then. I think Wendy could have chosen to put them together and develop a relationship, seeing as how she is the author-- like she did with Skywise and Timmain. She could, at least, have devoted a few scenes to meaningful interaction between them in Final Quest. I mean.. all we saw really was Mender scoping Dart out. That's hardly the basis for a lifetime commitment. A roll in the furs, sure. Lovemating, sure-- but jumping to "We are lifemates" seems really sudden and abrupt.

Quote :
About Dart and Kimo: Simply say that they were a romantic couple during the Forevergreen, and then decided they were better off as friends.
Yeah-- I mean, they were kind of built up by Barry Blair as a romantic couple. And then Wendy showed them spending a lot of time together for a while. The implication seemed to be that they were involved. So, I could buy that they broke up. And I could buy that Dart has commitment issues. Or that Kimo is prioritizing Shuna. I did like Dart and Kimo's goodbye scene-- that felt very natural, probably because of all the history between the characters. But Dart and Mender really come across as very out of the blue to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:52 am

We can't expect to get a continous role-call of how everybody is doing, sometimes stuff just happens off-"screen", just take Venka's pregnancy... Besides; they wouldn't be the first couple with a - shown - very fast development.

Cutter and Leetah:
First she can't stand him. Obviously, abducting someone is not the way to get the girl. Then she agrees to accept the call of Recognition and become his lifemate. Then six (off-"screen") years later it's revealed that now she actually loves him.

Sunstream and Brill:
We literally didn't even see their initial - spirit-plane - meeting. Suddenly Sunstream was just spending time with that sad-eyed maiden from the 'Wavedancers' series (or a completely new character, depending on whether you'd actually read 'Wavedancers'.) When they actually recognize Sunstream pretty much immediatly goes "I already love her!" because of that un-seen time they spent together.

Wing and Bethia:
Suddenly Wing - who was probably about 10 last time we saw him - has a lifemate, and a kid on the way!

Tyldak and Kahvi:
They fly off together, with the whole "differences make good sparks" schick. Next time we see them they're pretty much committed lovemates.

Ohler and Newstar:
They bump into each other, then next time we "hear" them speak it's all "You are my only starhome, Newstar."

Shukopek and Hartha:
Hey, presto! Shukopek has a lifemate, and a whole bunch of kids! With a new one coming.

Khorbasi and Tingeh:
Look! She's all grown up, and they're a couple now.

And what about all those couples who were introduced as such? Nightfall and Redlance. One-Eye and Clearbrook. Strongbow and Moonshade. Scouter and Dewshine. Woodlock and Rainsong. Sun-Toucher and Toorah. Salt and Spray. We didn't get to see how they became couples.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:11 am

Cutter and Leetah:
Literally a whole graphic novel devoted to them.

Sunstream and Brill:
Literally a whole graphic novel devoted to them

Quote :
Wing and Bethia:
Suddenly Wing - who was probably about 10 last time we saw him - has a lifemate, and a kid on the way!
And yet it still felt like a more natural character development took place there. Because we knew next to nothing about Wing before this story. But we do know that recognition (as has been long established) often leads to lifemating. So there is nothing contradictory here-- and it doesn't feel like a left field ball either. It's a slice of life scene from the Sun Village before the Go Back's attack. We know Wing grew up there. We know Sun Villagers assume life mating comes from Recognition. We know Wing assimilated their culture-- but even if he didn't, Wolfriders (at least the culture his parents grew up in) are similar in that regard. So it's really very in line character-wise and storywise.

Quote :
Tyldak and Kahvi:
They fly off together, with the whole "differences make good sparks" schick. Next time we see them they're pretty much committed lovemates.
Actually-- this does get shown. And in a way that works. Most of the 10,000 years while the Palace is gone is shown as a series of flashbacks for the Wolfriders. In those flashbacks, certain characters get a lot of relative screen time. First Cutter, then Kahvi, then Tyleet and Venka together (but in the context of Cutter and Kahvi). We see Cutter trying and failing to heal through various, short, scenes. And we see Kahvi's frustration with the Wolfrider lifestyle and Cutter mounting, while she is watched in the background by Tydak. Because this is the style of storytelling for the entire issue, it works and creates consistency-- and the passing time is well conveyed, as is the developing relationships between the characters. We walk away understanding Cutter's choice as well as Kahvi's because it is shown in the process of development.

Quote :
Ohler and Newstar:
They bump into each other, then next time we "hear" them speak it's all "You are my only starhome, Newstar."
And yet it didn't contradict anything we know about Newstar. It was better. Also, Newstar is a tertiary character. We have never really seen her focused on much. She's usually in the background of other scenes, or just shows up to interact with a main character briefly before fading back in to the background. And when we have seen her, years have often gone by and the implication has been that she's experienced some life changes in that time. So to have this happen with Ohler the way it did is not inconsistent with how Newstar is often treated int he story. Ergo, it's not jarring.

Quote :
Shukopek and Hartha:
Hey, presto! Shukopek has a lifemate, and a whole bunch of kids! With a new one coming.
Because they were incidental characters and we know nothing else about them. So we don't have a long back history that is contradictory to him getting married. The only thing we do know about him is that he did want a wife. He says so when Leetah offers to lengthen his life, along with Shuna's, and he declines. That's the first time we meet him- he's young and he wants a wife. Then, he's older and he has a wife. Totally consistent.

Quote :
Khorbasi and Tingeh:
Look! She's all grown up, and they're a couple now.
Again- incidental characters standing in the background. Not a thing.

Quote :
And what about all those couples who were introduced as such? Nightfall and Redlance. One-Eye and Clearbrook. Strongbow and Moonshade. Scouter and Dewshine. Woodlock and Rainsong. Sun-Toucher and Toorah. Salt and Spray. We didn't get to see how they became couples.
Right- that's how they were introduced and that was part of their backstory. It wasn't something that sprang up at the end of a long saga in which they were never shown to interact in any consistent manner or any manner that would lead to a relationship-- at least not with each other-- but were shown in long drawn out ways to have involvements or declare their inabilities to settle down with other characters. They don't contradict themselves.

Dart and Mender aren't similar to any of these scenarios you mentioned. They are more like, if... Rayek fell suddenly in love with Shen Shen, gave up Winnowil and said goodbye to Ekuar. Or Windkin suddenly losing interest in Ahdri (who, it's declared, was really just a crush of his-- not an actual relationship) and, not just hooking up with, but lifemating with Aroree. Or if Skywise said goodbye to Cutter because he couldn't make a commitment to him-- then decided he was in love with Pool, after we saw them hang out a few times and he scoped him out-- and then they made a lifetime commitment.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:42 am

Quote :
Cutter and Leetah:
Literally a whole graphic novel devoted to them.

The graphic novel was devoted to their Recognition, not those (unseen) years during which their bond became one of love, after their Recognition.

Quote :
Sunstream and Brill:
Literally a whole graphic novel devoted to them.

Same as above, except their bond was one of love before their Recognition.

But again; with both those cases we know their had time to develope a bond. Seven years (between OQ 5 and OQ 6) for Cutter and Leetah, three years for Sunstream and Brill. Same with Mender and Dart; they had ten years to get closer.


Besides, sometimes people just fall in love "quickly"... sometimes people get married after only a few dates.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:15 am

Lunakat, I'm pretty sure we did see exactly that with Windkin dropping Ahdri and hooking up with Aroree. Or did you do that on purpose?
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:33 am

Redhead is right, the relationship between Newstar and her new boyfriend is as natural as the one between Mender and Dart. But as Luna pointed out, Newstar is an extremely background-ish character (with an actual background-ish character).
Wing is also an absolute background character, we have no idea what he is like.

I think Mender and Dart could have wonderfully worked, if it was presented as in the classic Manga Shonen-Ai trope (troubled youth meeting dark manipulator) and it even started out a bit like that. But yeah, it didn't.

Windkin and his affection for Ahdri is also strange. He supposedly mourned her loss so much, that he'd rather spend the rest of his days in her spirit's present than instead look for another group. And he actually did do this for a couple of decades. Then he meets her again and is off short time later. Uhm...?

We already see Leetah and Cutter getting into "lifemate-mode" when they answer the call of recognition. But we are not invested in the relationship of Brill and Sunstream. They just are, suddenly, a couple. I guess, since they both want this, they simply share a recognition-driven love?

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:08 am

I don't think it's very strange that there is not much storytelling on the relationships of background characters like Wing and Newstar and such. I don't think all relationships need a lot of space in the story. It depends on the role of the character in the story.
Sunstream and Brill, I think their relationship could have been portrayed better, especially given that "discovery" is kind of about them. But then I also always thought we would see more of Sunstream in the FQ.
Windkin has always been a weird guy. I kind of assumed he's in a relationship with Ahdri and Aroree now.
My feeling with Dart and Mender is that their relationship could have worked so much better in the storyspace they had (talking about the actual panels they were in). It is true that we didn't get to see the process of Leetah growing to really love Cutter, but the rest of their story was told in a satisfying manner to me and the workings of their personalities together were well established. Dart and Mender are not the main characters so I don't think it is realistic to say they needed more storyspace together, but except for issue 7 I think the scenes they were were very weak. Any fanfic writer could have done better than that, in my opinion. And the celebration still makes no sense to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:12 am

It just doesn't matter to me that we didn't get to see every detail of the growing relationship between them, we've seen hints, they're together now, and it seems right to me.

As for the party; well... do the Go-Backs really need an excuse to have a party?
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #19   Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:30 am

It doesn't matter to me, either, that we didn't get to see more of it. (Because this way, I can make up my own details. Razz ) After issue 7 (Where Mender first shows interest in Dart) I had hoped they would get a more interesting storyline.
You know, now I think about it, I don't think it's just Dart and Mender; I'm dissatisfied with all of the storytelling in FQ since then. It's just that I care more about Dart than I do about the other characters, so that's the only thing that really bothers me. Embarassed

Yes, Redhead, you're right about the party. It's probably a go-back thing. Very Happy

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