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Relena

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PostSubject: What would you change about EQ's story   Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:52 am

Hello there, I hope my first thread doesn't come off as too negative. I just wanted to make a thread for people to calmly and respectfully come together to discuss the parts of Eflquest they are dissatisfied with.

I didn't see any others threads like this, so I guess it's possible that this might be deleted. However, I thought I would try none the less. I feel it can be healthy, and maybe for some, liberating, to get cretin disappointments with the cannon off their chests. ElfQuest is after all a comic book series that, I assume, most of us grew up with for many many years and hence is extremely close to our hearts.

Anyway, I have a laundry list of things I would change about the story but I suppose I'll start off with the lest offensive one.

Seeing how long the story has gotten, I feel that OneEye was killed off WAY too soon. I don't know where he would have fit past the war but I found him really interesting and I would have loved to see him around much longer then he was.
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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:28 am

Nothing, really. Sure I would have preferred it some of the characters had survived, or if Angrif had had the decency to die immediatly after Krim wounded him instead of waiting 10 years like a lazy slob.
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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:26 am

Welcome to Father Tree Holt, Relena! Run with the pack ... Howl, Hunt and Live Free!


And a welcome for your thread. Smile No worries about being deleted. What you've pointed out in your preamble is basically all we demand - respectful and honest discussion.
I suggest to ask @Nibblet to work some admin magic and move this thread to another section, tho.  All the Many Colors or the ElfQuest Comic Discussions will suit it better.


I honestly don't know whether I would like to change something "world changing" as far as the main storyline goes until SatS. This or that detail ... for sure. As I don't have a list those points just come to mind when I actually read this parts of when it's mentioned in discussions.

And Final Quest isn't finished ... hard to suggest a change of direction before I know the destination. My main complaint here is about art - especially coloring - and a way of storytelling that lacks to draw me in emotionally.
Hmmm ... I wholeheartily agree with Redhead about the coutcome of Krim's final stunt. In fact Yun should have cut in the other direction - fast death most likely.


One-Eye ... his death had a strong impact on me. Maybe because it was the first we've actually wittnessed "live". And I liked this guy. Emotionally I still don't want to have him dead and wish we'd got more to know about him. Storywise - it probably was the best death for me!
Because it had a strong impact on me.
Because he had an impact on the story even beyond his death.
We actually got to see grieving family members over a longer time and how it had an impact on them. Changed them. We saw how he influenced a healer. Leetah's view on life and death and her skills changed.

His death was not over with a beautifully drawn death scene and a mourning howl. For many issues - through three story arcs! - his death and the effects on family and kin were thematized in the background. He even got spotlight long after the killing.
I wonder whether this is one of the reasons why this minor background character (basically a redshirt) gets more than his expected share of fan attention and love.

His death had a meaning ... beyond "there must be some victims". Beyond reminding us that death happens to elves, too. Beyond the "his spirit will live on in the Palace" comfort.

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:37 am

Hmm.
1: Have Winnowill completely neutralized after Siege. Have her soul torn to pieces and utterly wiped away if needed be.
2:I'd love to have seen more of Brownberry, so I'd keep her alive.
3: Have Rayek kicked out of and barred from the Palace (if say he somehow screws up and makes the Palace reappear after 10 years instead of 10 thousand).
4: I wouldn't let the time skip happen.
5: Have somebody tell Winnowill she's actually an incompetent healer, skill-wise.
6: Let Rellah live a nice and peaceful life away from the wolfriders.
7: Have Mekda saved ffs.
8: Have a bunch of High Ones survivors.
9: Have the wolfriders show more negative sides of themselves. 
10: I'd want somebody to tell Strongbow he's an ungrateful bastard towards the Sun Folk. (In OQ that is.)
11: Get Skywise to Recognize somebody that doesn't find him charming and isn't impressed by his star-talk.
12: Final Quest: Kick/ban Timmain from control and fly off and actually pick up the elves that want to find the Palace.

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:28 pm

Hi Relena. Welcome to the Holt. (Is your name a "Gundam Wing" reference? If so, double-welcome from me. :-D)

Well, in the beginning, perhaps I would've had Crescent and Vaya live and later become lovemates. I just like that idea for some reason, and who knows how Vaya might've had a chance to grow without having to live up to Kahvi's expectations.

I'd have Rayek accept that Winnowill will never want to be healed or show him the love he wants, and he'll have to live with that. I'd also look into what Moonshade might have tried to share with Strongbow about what she's learning in the Palace and why she ultimately chooses to stay there. He might not understand, but I think he also has his reasons for freaking out about her choices.

But most importantly, I'd do away with the Cutter/Timmain connection. It's poorly done, sounds like a massive Ass Pull/retcon, and it's created a side plot that's completely unneeded. Cutter's his own character. He's always been a great one, in my mind. He can stand on his own without a little seed of Timmain's soul always driving him on.

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:52 pm

Really, Final Quest? It damages everything that came before it. I could have done without it.
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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:50 pm

@Relena wrote:


I didn't see any others threads like this, so I guess it's possible that this might be deleted.

We never delete!
Unless the content is illegal, then we might have to Razz

@Embala wrote:

I suggest to ask @Nibblet to work some admin magic and move this thread to another section, tho.  All the Many Colors or the ElfQuest Comic Discussions will suit it better.

Done!

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:27 pm

I would keep everything exactly as is up until Kings of the Broken Wheel. I would nix that storyline and everything after-- with the exception of the "little patch" story-- that is gold. Find a different way to incorporate tyleet and that tale.

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:05 pm

Blood of Ten Chiefs (the books) would have been written soley by Wendy and Richard, with illustrations by Wendy -- their original concept.
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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:31 pm

Man... I love the Blood of Ten Chiefs short story collections-- the prose versions. The comic versions-- those sucked. What would i change about that? I would hire people who can actually draw. Maybe even good comic book artists to illustrate those stories. I mean... these characters are not that hard because they are so well designed. They're designed to be animated-- that means they have solid structure and are designed to be drawn by other people. Anyone who understands the underlying structures should be able to draw these characters. So why such bad artists? Why did that whole series look like it was drawn by my twelve year old niece?

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Relena

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:00 pm

@Embala wrote:
Welcome to Father Tree Holt, Relena! Run with the pack ... Howl, Hunt and Live Free!

And a welcome for your thread. Smile No worries about being deleted. What you've pointed out in your preamble is basically all we demand - respectful and honest discussion.


@Multi-Facets wrote:
Hi Relena. Welcome to the Holt. (Is your name a "Gundam Wing" reference? If so, double-welcome from me. :-D)


Thanks you guys! Very Happy  I've never been welcomed to a forum before. @Multi-Facets yes it's definitely a Gundam Wing reference. Relena is my favorite anime character of all time.

@Embala wrote:
I suggest to ask @Nibblet to work some admin magic and move this thread to another section, tho.  All the Many Colors or the ElfQuest Comic Discussions will suit it better.


Well the thread has been moved now. I just hope this move doesn't mean it's death Sad

@Embala wrote:
His death had a meaning ... beyond "there must be some victims". Beyond reminding us that death happens to elves, too. Beyond the "his spirit will live on in the Palace" comfort.


Oh I still think he should have died, just not so quickly. Had the story ended at the OQ it would have been fine. It's only because EQ has gone on for so long that I think he could have lived through two more book before getting killed.

@Shadowpath wrote:
Hmm.
1: Have Winnowill completely neutralized after Siege. Have her soul torn to pieces and utterly wiped away if needed be.


I'm glad I'm not the only one who got sick of her hanging around for so long. I remember getting particularly irritated when Reyek's plan to bring Leetah underwater to heal her, failed.

Damn it Winnowill, either get healed or die already!  Rolling Eyes  

But honestly, I always wanted to see her healed so we could see what she's like as a good person. And I was always interested in the massive guilt and self loathing that would eventually happen from being healed. It could have been one of the greatest character catharsis in the whole story. "The great redemption of Winnowil the evil."

@Shadowpath wrote:
10: I'd want somebody to tell Strongbow he's an ungrateful bastard towards the Sun Folk. (In OQ that is.)


Wow this brings back memories I had long forgotten. Namely that I used to despise him for this very reason.

@Shadowpath wrote:
11: Get Skywise to Recognize somebody that doesn't find him charming and isn't impressed by his star-talk.


Spoiler:
 

Anyway, just out of curiosity, how would that work exactily? I mean relationship wise?

@Elwing wrote:
Really, Final Quest? It damages everything that came before it. I could have done without it.


Yeah, I honestly consider the father Tree Press books to be the definitive canon collection in my eyes.

@Lunakat wrote:
I would keep everything exactly as is up until Kings of the Broken Wheel. I would nix that storyline and everything after-- with the exception of the "little patch" story-- that is gold. Find a different way to incorporate tyleet and that tale.


What about the story about Skywises parents? That one was one of my favorites. I actually cried pretty hard at that one.

@Multi-Facets wrote:

But most importantly, I'd do away with the Cutter/Timmain connection. It's poorly done, sounds like a massive Ass Pull/retcon, and it's created a side plot that's completely unneeded. Cutter's his own character. He's always been a great one, in my mind. He can stand on his own without a little seed of Timmain's soul always driving him on


What I took away from all this is that, Cutter and Skywise were 'supposed' to be the main couple and have a family from the beginning, and the only thing that stopped them was their gender. This also highly implies that Cutter's recognition to Leetah was simply brought on by the intense desire to have children from recognition, much like Skywise's joining with Timmain. So, if either Skywise or Cutter were a girl, their most likely wouldn't have been any recognition between Leetha and Cutter and joining with Timmain would have been completely unnecessary.

Anyway, personally, I'm not a fan of Leetah, Ember, or Suntop anymore. I actually used to be a huge fan of Leetah and Ember but I feel like whatever chemistry she had with Cutter died over time, and Ember has gotten really b***hy after "the hidden years" and I don't even know who she is anymore as a character.

So, this revelation that Cutter and Skywise were "possibly" the true default couple, isn't much of a big deal for me since they're one of the only things that I still enjoy about this series. However, as part of the narrative, I agree with you Multi - it leaves way WAY to many plot holes and brings up too many questions, such as...

Why didn't Skywise or Cutter have a more romantic and intimate relationship from the very beginning if that’s how they really felt about each other? Why is it when they're finally shown being romantic with each other, it's only when Leetah is involved? Why did neither Cutter or Skywise share any pain or sorrow over not being able to fully consummate their recognition though children? Why couldn't Leetah simply turn either Cutter or Skywise into a female until a child was conceived and then turn them back? Why did Timmain only tell Cutter about this and not Skywise or Leetha?

With all these glaring problems, I don't understand how Wendy and Richard could simply go ahead with this Timmain is Cutter idea.
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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:17 pm

I would change the whole Timmain inserting herself into Cutter's life the way she did. So totally uncool.

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:56 am

Davrille: I'd like to see that take on the BoTC novels too. Or at least have them declared semi-canon.

Relena: [high-fives for the Relena-love]

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:01 pm

@Relena wrote:

@Lunakat wrote:
I would keep everything exactly as is up until Kings of the Broken Wheel. I would nix that storyline and everything after-- with the exception of the "little patch" story-- that is gold. Find a different way to incorporate tyleet and that tale.


What about the story about Skywises parents? That one was one of my favorites. I actually cried pretty hard at that one.

In the linear timeline of the story

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Relena

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:09 pm

Looking at this thread and some others, I've noticed that a lot of people aren't happy with "King of the Broken Wheel" or the time skip that came from it. I'm curious how you guys would written it? I don't mean that sarcastically either. I'm genuinely cureous scratch confused
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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:09 pm

@Relena wrote:


Anyway, just out of curiosity, how would that work exactily? I mean relationship wise?


To somebody who isn't instantly wooed by him? It likely wouldn't. Tho that's just my opinion.

@Relena wrote:
Looking at this thread and some others, I've noticed that a lot of people aren't happy with "King of the Broken Wheel" or the time skip that came from it. I'm curious how you guys would written it? I don't mean that sarcastically either. I'm genuinely cureous scratch confused

I've always liked the idea of having Cutter Recognize somebody else during the long wait and actually have him die off at some point, and make the wolfriders move forward, so when Leetah and the others come back,none of the original, mortal wolfriders are left. All new faces everywhere!

Also have Rayek banished from the Palace forever.

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:13 am

I like all the older story's enough so that I would not change them, even if I am not crazy about every detail in them. But I really dislike the Final Quest and I would rewrite it, so that it does not come across as so chaotic and random anymore, and defenitely take out the TimTam thing. Or maybe just take out Timmain altogether. She really creeps me out in this story.
Oh yes, one more thing: I would let Dart and Kimo have a relationship and leave out the whole Mender thing. I understand what Wendy is thinking, pairing them up, but I just liked Kimo better.
Oh yes, and another thing, I would keep Bowki in the story, or give him more storytime, or something like that. I liked him.

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:47 pm

So much to undo! Here goes....................................................................................

(1) Get rid of that stupid Kahvi comic! It cheapens the GoBacks origins,demonizes Willowgreen and is a complete mess. Egg surviving was the only good thing in that story.

(2) Show Moonshade actually learning Palace related stuff, not have her talk about it. To be honest, I'd scratch that whole storyline.

(3) In Wolfrider, show more negative sides of Joyleaf and positive of Bearclaw. And considerable less angst.

(4) More of Bowki. He was literally a throwaway character.

(5)Not have the Sun Folk automatically live in the Palace and lose their vibrancy.


(6) High One Ahdri and Moonshade look so wrong in so many ways. Curly hair that long looks completely different. And I remember what the original High Ones wore, Ahdri and Moonshade look dowdy in comparison.

(7)Have some Gliders survive the fall of Blue Mountain.


(8)More and different troll cultures. Outside the Misfit Trolls, not much difference between Guttlekraw's and Greymung's kingdoms.
.
(9)The Hidden Ones,Fungusamungus,whatever they're named, just something different.

(10) More of Bone Woman before Rayek hijacked the Palace. Have her escape Olbar's wrath, help stir up the Hoan-G'Tay-Sho against the Wolfriders, just more.

(11) Enough with guns are evil! Compared to Rayek,Winnowil,Leetah,Mender or any powerful magic user, primitive fire arms are not an automatic game changer. And Leetah,Mender and several Wavedancer healers can negate the damage.

(12) Ember's supposed to cleave to the Way and is apparently a very traditional Wolfrider. Therefore, she would have no reason to defy Recognition outside of being captured. They were in a safe place,free from humans and new elves are always needed. But Wendy had to push her Pro-Choice agenda with very long lived elves who have a very low birthrate.

(13) Mender and Dart have no chemistry, no hints prior to Final Quest and are nauseating together. Dart actually looks better with Kimo.

(14) Wavedancers should not take that long to mature.

(15) Do not like Scouter/Tyleet Recognition. But Pool's a good character.

(16) Put Venka in something other than pantsuits. Same goes for any other Sun Village maiden that lives with Wolfriders for a long time like Shenshen and Ahdri.

(17) Lose Timmain the Soul Hijacker story!

(18) Never did like Timmain/Skywise,never will.

(19) Not have Iceholt humans have insect based culture.

(20) Would have Newstar along for Original Quest. Sorta a Coming of Age sidestory.

(21) Do like the idea of Skywise/Tyleet.

(22) Want more about Clearbrook's daughter.

(23)I might regret it, but would give the Preservers genders and a sex drive.

(24) Weaponize the Palace some.

(25) Not have ShenShen become human.

(26)Dre'Ahn's just a McGuffin type character. Even Tier had more development.






Think of more later.
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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:17 pm

I agree with doing away with the Kahvi comic. She's one of my favorite characters, and I think a complete and compelling individual without the backstory. I don't like that there suddenly was something missing in her that needed to be filled by some connection with the Wolfriders. Not everything needs to be connected. I also don't like that she became one of the baddies there.

One of the reasons I liked Kahvi is she was a strong female character. I would have started with more characters like that in the beginning. It bugs me that Cutter only called the males to go with him when the humans were going to torch the forest, and then they leave the females behind when they raid Sorrow's End. I do like later on that they showed that females could be warriors and males, like Redlance, could be nurturers. I wish it have been part of the world from the beginning.

Final Quest - still not sure what to say about it. I don't think I'll know til the end if it's going to be worth it or not, but I think it could be told better.

Suntop really got on my nerves in the original quest. I wish there were more scenes of him showing something else than crying and everyone fretting over him. Talk about a McGuffin. "So we brought you her warning for nothing?" Yeah, pretty much. Every strange feeling or power he has pretty much leads to nothing.

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:23 pm

I totally agree with Outlier about Kahvi!

Okay- brace yourselves for a long rant:

@Relena wrote:
Looking at this thread and some others, I've noticed that a lot of people aren't happy with "King of the Broken Wheel" or the time skip that came from it. I'm curious how you guys would written it? I don't mean that sarcastically either. I'm genuinely cureous scratch confused

Honestly-- I think I wouldn't have written it. The time jump seems unnecessary and convolutes things. And that story flattened all of the characters-- I think making them act out of character from thereon out-- at least in contradiction to what we had learned about who they were up until then.

Take Rayek, for example. Rayek had just gone through an amazing character arc. He started off a self centered, spoiled, entitled, self-important, petty person. Over the course of the original series-- and through Siege at Blue Mountain-- all of that was stripped away, replaced by growth.

First thing that happened-- the Wolfriders showed up and demonstrated to him that he was not as uniquely special as he imagined. Leetah's recognition demonstrated to him that you cannot claim and own another person. These were positive developments for him, even though they caused him distress-- because they forced him to re-evaluate his identity. They sent him on a quest to discover himself.

The first thing that he discovered was not himself-- but Ekuar. This is significant because it was through his sympathy for Ekuar that he learned to care about another more than he cared about himself. Ekuar's suffering was so great that it eradicated Rayek's self pity. Then, seeing Ekuar's own power, Rayek learned humility. This was necessary for him to develop the self discipline he needed to truly master his powers. Only by giving up his self pity, pride and self aggrandizement could he truly enter the role of pupil and learn what Ekuar had to teach. As a result, he emerged wiser and more powerful than before.

Rayek last two lessons were to let go of the fantasy of Leetah and move on with his life-- and to embrace self sacrifice in pursuit a larger goal that benefited his people. He met another strong woman-- Kahvi, developed a new relationship with her, and was seen and valued by her as her equal. In order to stand at her side, he had to give up his prejudice that magic made him superior. He had to learn to accept her leadership just as she learned to value his magical abilities. He gave up his pride and gained respect in it's place.

He then overcame his desire for his fantasy of Leetah and helped her heal Cutter-- essentially giving her back to the man she had chosen when he could have easily let him die and had a second chance at a relationship with her. That was his first self sacrifice. As a consequence--   Leetah was able to interact with him in a more honest way and with genuine affection. Later on, he chose to act for the benefit of the group over himself repetitively as the elves banded together to fight for the palace. He risked his life selflessly to open the last gate... and that was how he gained entry to the opportunity of his dreams.

Rayek, in order to reach his highest potential, had to learn to give up everything he was. He stumbled in Siege-- he tried to control Kahvi the way he had tried to control Leetah-- and he drove her away (along with the child she was carrying). He then allowed his old craving and pride to dominate him in interacting with Winnowil and was easily manipulated by her-- to the point of nearly helping destroy his people. But, again, he learned his lesson in the end-- realized the truth about his daughter (that she was alive), and helped to dethrone Winnowil. His reward was even greater power in the form to the gliders-- whose spirits allowed him to fully restore the palace at last.

Kings of the Broken Wheel completely reversed Rayek's character arc. He acted as if he had never been through any of these experiences. He reverted to the petulant jerk that he was in Book One. I think it was a great disservice to his character because it erased all of his depth, made him very one-note and made his evolution up until that point... pointless.

This didn't just happen to Rayek. It happened to Winnowil (she started as a nuanced character and ended up a cartoon villain.) It happened to Skywise too.

Look-- a moment of panic in battle is entirely understandable-- it's a thing even that is known to happen to people. But he had never shown an extreme fear of death before the King's story arc. Rather, he was shown following Cutter into dangerous situations and frequently risking his life. He fell off a cliff and was cool with it. He'd also lived through the death of his girlfriend and half the tribe without completely falling apart. That's not the behavior of someone with a death phobia. And the whole point of that interaction, as it read in the original story, was to teach Skywise that Cutter had grown beyond their friendship. He returned because he accepted that Cutter had larger responsibilities and forgave him. In Siege-- Cutter got the chance to demonstrate to Skywise that he was still very important to him, nonetheless-- because Cutter was willing to risk his own life (when an entire war wasn't at stake) and even risk Winnowil getting free in order to save his friend. That was about validating their friendship again.

Kings of the Broken Wheel hits-- and suddenly Skywise is so death phobic that he can't handle the autumn-- and he becomes so clingy to Cutter that it's apparent he needs a therapist badly. Oversimplification to the max.

I don't know what the point of the time jump was. We ended up with all the same characters, all the same dynamics-- and the same problem with the humans. It barely changed anything-- short of making Cutter bitter. But it did raise some odd questions in my mind... for example-- did Timmain really spend 10,000 years on the end of a short chain in the troll taverns? Really? That must have sucked. Why not put her to sleep? It would have been more humane.

I wasn't super fond of the art either.

I could have lived without that entire storyline. Just nix it.

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:05 am

That reminds me, I would've at least left Skywise with Cutter for the "Kings of the Broken Wheel" story.

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:45 pm

Incoming long ass post:

Pretty much all that's been said especially by Outlier and Lunakat. I do disagree with Lunakat that Rayek healed Cutter out of the goodness of his heart - he basically said, Now we're even (because Cutter saved his life before). Don't get me wrong - I'm a huge Rayek fan. I do also see that he went through a huge redemption arc. But I also know that humbleness is not a trait of his. And it doesn't have to be, either - he's arrogant, but a character can be arrogant in some ways and still essentially good. Yet it seems like these nuances are lost in the writing and only Wolfriders are the ones who are 'good' in some way and ideal, which is annoying.
I don't like Final Quest but I am watching it -less so than before, but still reading. I'm not nearly as invested as I used to be. I don't like the TimTam thing, as several others have pointed out. I also agree with a lot of what's on Prism's list also, though not all.

I also immensely dislike Timmain. I feel like she's been kryptonite to the story. She's incredibly un-relatable, like a vulcan, and yet without any remotely even accidental endearing qualities of, say, Spock. I liked her a lot more in her wolf form. In her goddess form she's just remote. She's meant to be like a goddess, but who says goddesses can't be funny or endearing , or at least a little... I don't know, less prissy and judgmental-seeming? She's spent such little time in elf-flesh form yet she's somehow in charge, which is weird. She's got much less of an idea of what it's like 'out there' after being out of touch for so many years. Some bumbling is in order with her decisions, and I think it would be kind of neat to see and witness.

I think the story is a complete mess now to be honest. Lunakat pointed out a lot of things not great with KOtBW, and I never saw those clearly before but I agree with the points. I think I basically see them as the beginning of the end - I thought the story was a bit weaker but hoped it would move forward. I also thought Skywise's overreaction to seasons and death as weird, and I found his codependency annoying. Which is sort of why I don't really see why it's being 'rewarded' by being able to hook up with Timmain. I guess it makes sense for him to fulfill that deep sense of abandonment by hooking up with the be-all end-all mother figure, and I'd forgive that too, yet having it reconnect to Cutter is just useless, it's unnecessary, and it's way, way too literal and calculating. It doesn't flow.
That's probably my biggest gripe with Final Quest, that it doesn't flow, it's just being very deliberate in pushing a New Age allegorical agenda. It's put the narrative to risk and essentially destroyed the storytelling itself because it's trying too hard to 'say something important'. I just want a story to be told and get lost in it, I don't want someone drawing me a roadmap of how to think and how to view things and how to digest them, and that's exactly what Final Quest has done.

One last thing about this and it's the deaths in all of EQ actually - you get a lot of deeply tragic deaths before the quest really starts, and then you get One Eye's death, which is sad, and then that's it. You don't get any other Wolfrider deaths, which is odd. You get Krim's and Scot's but they feel like they're somehow ok because well, they're originally Go Backs and that's just what they do . You get Tyldak and Kahvi's death told in a flashback, so there's no real impact. The other deaths just feel very minor and very unimportant. The other Wolfriders dying were told in flashback as well (Woodlock/Rainsong/Wing) and they died of old age which is fine, but that's been it .
I thought Ruffels death was very well done because it was so poetic and tragic - it was intense and amazing, even though she was a small character and I wasn't even a fan. But it was immediately eclipsed by the annoying Moonshade/Strongbow storyline which has been dragged out and flogged repeatedly until the flesh has fallen off its bones into the stew pot.
So I guess I've taken the long way around in saying this, but I think really the deaths need to pack more of a punch, or something? And I don't think there should be some kind of magical protective coating for the wolfriders. Why should there be?

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Davrille

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:54 pm

Responding to various things here...

The Kahvi miniseries: Yes, that too would be gone. Not only did it pointlessly tie in the Go-Backs to the Wolfriders and  minimize a major plot point in SaBM(the removal of Windkin's wolf blood) but it had that stupid "what really matters is being more like a Wolfrider!" feel to it. And right next to that, I got the impression Kahvi was supposed to be 'redeemed' by becoming 'softer': being schooled by Nightfall on The Joys of Motherhood, bonding with a wolf.

KotBW: Lunakat, i remember thinking, "But... in Siege it said he knew the baby survived!" Kings made me wonder if some of the real-life issues of Wendy and Richard were 'leaking through"; Both of them were about the age for a mid-life crisis.

The art of BoTC comics: It was around the time the anthologies started that there were at least one fan artist who was really REALLY close to matching Wendy in drawing her elves. I think there was some insecurity there, as well as the usual hiring questions: who's available? Who do we want to work with? Who wants to work with us? The blowup with Colleen Doran happened in 1984/85, IIRC. That could have been a contributing factor to the stable of artists they had to choose from.

I've found I don't mind Timmain being ineffable and alien. What makes it weird for me is the obvious deference all the elves show toward her. On the one hand, it's understandable. On the other, there's still that huge gap between them. I wonder if some of that deference isn't a self-defense mechanism: "Timmain is great and wonderful because we're screwed if she isn't)!"
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Embala

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:39 pm

@Davrille wrote:
KotBW: Lunakat, i remember thinking, "But... in Siege it said he knew the baby survived!" Kings made me wonder if some of the real-life issues of Wendy and Richard were 'leaking through"; Both of them were about the age for a mid-life crisis.
Rayek knew? I've never realized. Or actively suppressed it after KotBW.
... or the German translation messed up.

Can you point me to his perception in SaBM, please?

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Davrille

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:47 pm

Issue 8, page 5 of Siege at Blue Mountain:

http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=SABM/SABM08&p=5

"But the piteous sound-memory of young Two-Edge's sobs blends in Rayek's mind with the wails of his own babe -- the newborn that somehow he knows is still alive!"
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