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Embala

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:54 pm

Ahhh... thank you, Davrille! Smile

*must look up my translation to find out what went wrong*

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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:12 am

Thanks for pointing that out, Darville, I didn't know that Rayek knew for sure that Venka was alive.

Also, which books specifically are BoTC? I mean the non-comic ones. I really want to read them. I'm in Florida visiting my parents and I think there's a copy here which I bought a while ago and never got to reading, but I'm not sure which one it is (can't find it!).

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Davrille

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:15 am

@Zadzi wrote:


Also, which books specifically are BoTC? I mean the non-comic ones. I really want to read them. I'm in Florida visiting my parents and I think there's a copy here which I bought a while ago and never got to  reading, but I'm not sure which one it is (can't find it!).

There are five:

The Blood of Ten Chiefs
Wolfsong
Against the Wind
Winds of Change
Dark Hours
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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:17 am

They are really good. (Read them in order!)

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Relena

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:45 am

Since we're talking about Rayek, here is my two cents on him. Rayek is a character that I really wanted to like but never could because of how back and forth he would go. It's almost like Wendy didn't know what the hell to do with him after the OQ. Also, I don't understand her reasoning for matching him up with Kavi. I can see the thought process and attraction behind his feelings for Winnowill but you would think it should have died off at the end of SaBm. But nope, he's somehow stupid madly in love with her to the point of obsession. Not to mention that he refuses to allow her to be healed by Timmain until she loves him back.

Why couldn't Wendy just give him a good decent lifemate that could see the good in him and change him for the better. I know that's probably what Kavi was supposed to be but she was completely ruined in Siege by lying about the life of their child.

Don't get me wrong though, I love that Venka exists but her personality is nothing like Kavi or Rayek's and since she's physically just female Rayek, he really could have sired her with anyone. The Elfquest Alternaverse fic pretty much proves that idea works fine in universe.

~

On a different topic. How do people here feel about Teir as a character and the Teir x Ember couple?
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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:12 am

Yeah- I wasn't trying to say that Rayek ended up humble. He never gave up his personality-- and that included an edge of ego. But... he did learn a certain amount of humility by the end of OQ. He learned to work with and learn from others. He learned how to put his own needs second (most of the time). He learned to how to let go of his own demands. He learned how to work toward a higher purpose for the betterment of his people. And for a while. he learned how to let Kahvi take charge.

I think it makes perfect sense that he was paired up with Kahvi before the war. He has always been attracted to strong women. She's a very strong woman. And she was the most dominant and high profile female there. She was a leader of her people. She was strong and capable in a way that could rival him (in ways the entire rest of the Sun Villagers weren't). She was as good a hunter and a fighter as he was, and she had command. And he couldn't dominate or control her. He could respect her, be challenged by her-- and being with her gave him status in her tribe.

That sounds like everything he likes.

The problem was that he wasn't what she wanted. She didn't want to be endlessly jockying for the upper hand with her partner. Ergo-- Tyldak. Notice how Tyldak went from Winnowil to Kahvi and Rayek from Kahvi to Winnowil? No coincidence.

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Relena

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:37 am

@Zadzi wrote:
I also immensely dislike Timmain. I feel like she's been kryptonite to the story. She's incredibly un-relatable, like a vulcan, and yet without any remotely even accidental endearing qualities of, say, Spock. I liked her a lot more in her wolf form. In her goddess form she's just remote. She's meant to be like a goddess, but who says goddesses can't be funny or endearing , or at least a little... I don't know, less prissy and judgmental-seeming? She's spent such little time in elf-flesh form yet she's somehow in charge, which is weird. She's got much less of an idea of what it's like 'out there' after being out of touch for so many years. Some bumbling is in order with her decisions, and I think it would be kind of neat to see and witness.

Funny you should say this. I sort of liked Timmain when she first showed up. She was weird and semi incoherent. You got the feeling that while everyone else revered her as a god come to life, she didn't think herself as anything speshel. She simply stated facts and tried to mother a bit - like how she looked at Dewshine and the first thing she asked was "Have you been feed?" The question was silly because of timing and abruptness but she asked it with a sincere innocence that made it interesting. I think the problem lies in her shift in attitude. She went from "I'm a mother, you are my children, I will tell you everything you want to know" to "I'm a benevolent high one. I created all of you, and I'll tell you whatever I feel like."
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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:45 am

@Relena wrote:
How do people here feel about Teir as a character and the Teir x Ember couple?
Original Teir was wonderful. I liked his design and I thought he was very fascinating. He raised a lot of questions for me.

Wendy's version is an absolute disaster. There's his changed design and then there's his hyper clingy personality.

I don't think I feeling anything for Ember/Teir.

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Relena

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:44 pm

@Shadowpath wrote:
Original Teir was wonderful. I liked his design and I thought he was very fascinating. He raised a lot of questions for me.

Wendy's version is an absolute disaster. There's his changed design and then there's his hyper clingy personality.

I don't think I feeling anything for Ember/Teir.

Maybe it's unfair of me but I really hate Teir. He represents everything I came to dislike about EQ during the 90's and one of the reasons I dropped the series back then. I remember the artwork being terrible and everyone seemed completely out of character, then came this random, bland looking Elf, from the literal middle of nowhere and he just so happens to catch they eye of Ember, the main character.

He came of as lazy, convenient, and uninspired.

I wasn't exactly sold on Mender x Ember before Teir came along but I would have preferred them together over the alternative.


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Shadowpath

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:55 pm

Personally,Mender/Ember always stuck me as an attempt by Mender to get really close to Cutter and Leetah.

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Relena

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:11 pm

@Shadowpath wrote:
Personally,Mender/Ember always stuck me as an attempt by Mender to get really close to Cutter and Leetah.
He must have felt something for Ember since he went with her when the tribe split up and he got Rayek levels of jealous when Teir started moving in on her.

I guess it doesn't matter either way though. I never found them interesting and i never really cared about them as a couple.
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Miss Gillespie

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:04 pm

I like Mender when he is a bit fucked up. For example, when in Shards he was torn between the need to heal and the need to kill, or later his jalousy in Wild Hunt. He is boring in the lovey-dovey state.
The thing with his admiration for Ember's parents was some story device to make drama, but it worked (him admiring both her parents).
However, even though he was roughly three years with Ember, there never seemed to be much chemistry between them.


Teir has a lot of fans, some haters (me included) and probably not that many who are indifferent towards him. In Hidden Years and Wild Hunt he is very Gary-Stu-ish (and that why I never liked him), but in FiQu he is worse, he became a whiny annoying creature. Ugh, I'd rather have the old one.
I think it would've been interesting if the relationship between Ember and Teir would been used as some kind of foil to show Ember's development from the "kid-chief", the young girl falling for the mysterious stranger, to a grown-ass woman.

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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:15 am

@Darville and @Lunakat... thanks! I've got some winter reading set up by the looks of it.

@Relena - Yeah, I didn't mind Timmain in the beginning at all, she was ok. I always also preferred her in her wolf form like when she became Cutter's wolf in KOtBW. It's true that technically she really is 'younger' than a lot of the wolfriders really, considering she's been in wolf form most of the time on the world of two moons.
Also, yeah, Rayek got the short of end of the stick ultimately in terms of character writing I think - so did Winnowill. And even Kahvi really also with the connection to the wolfriders...

I think Teir was ok when first introduced. I thought he was like the typical 'exotic' mysterious stranger ... but it was still ok. I actually really liked Wild Hunt, even though I wasn't really crazy about the art. I thought there was some strong, compelling stuff in there, Ember was at her strongest really, in terms of character development, and Scouter was a complete asshole but that was somehow ok because it was unexpected and weird and I kind of liked that twist. Ultimately, Ember came into her own in that series, plus my favorite human - one of my very favorite characters, period - was introduced - Lehrigen (love the guy but can't spell his name for shit, unfortunately lol ) ... I thought Teir became weak and ineffectual in FQ but not for the whininess only, because I actually think that is acceptable and explainable: He spend tons of time alone and when he finally connects with others, he discovers he has abandonment issues. So it's ok. What I didn't like was the connection to Kahvi (omg another Wolfrider connection, we're all totally related omg!) and Windkin, and how he just wasn't mysterious anymore. I didn't care for him being 'lighter' in skin color also. And he just began to feel very milquetoast in general, like he'd been 'defanged' or something. I liked the Teir that took chances and left his tribe for Ember, and followed his own guts and heart. I liked it when he was not listening to the tribe and doing his own thing at times. I think there should be more of that once in a while - that was kind of why I felt Teir was cool in his own way, he helped the group but wasn't entirely integrated. Why integrate him into it AND also connect him in blood as well, it's just kind of needless and makes him stop being as interesting. Now he's totally just another tribe member and several elves' cousin. It's like, so what?

@Miss Gillespie - I liked somewhat fucked up Mender too, I liked his internal battle, how he was 'good' but had problems integrating parts of his own personality at times. It made him interesting. I didn't like him with Ember, I just didn't see the chemistry. I actually loved Yun and Mender as a couple because they had great chemistry and good, honest conversations, and were adorable and funny together, like long lost best friends with great sexual chemistry.

Bottom line is, I think, sometimes nuanced or conflicted characters seem like they don't get to remain that way...like there's always a resolution, which is good but to me not , because they're more interesting when they are conflicted. Once their inner conflict is externally 'resolved', they sort of fade to the background or something, which makes me sort of sad. Or they turn into 'villain' or villain like , which, again, feels very black/white, oversimplified.

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Relena

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:52 am

Wild Hunt may have had good solid ideas and character nuances but the execution of it was god awful. Everyone seemed full of angst and ready to prouder keg at the slightest agitation. They practically became dicks overnight. And yes, Scouter was a complete asshole, to which his character never seemed to recover from. Mender too come to think of it.

If the writers cared about these characters at all, they would have found a way to integrate who they were with what they wanted them to be: instead, they sacrificed their previously established and long built upon (in Scouter's case) personalities for the sake of plot and drama.

Also, now that I really think about it. It's highly likely that they created Teir just so they could retread on the Cutter/Leetah/Rayek conflict. Considering how "lovey-dovey" Mender was in Hidden Years, I always felt it would have made much more sense if he had just join them in a three sum.
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Relena

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:15 pm

@Prism wrote:
(3) In Wolfrider, show more negative sides of Joyleaf and positive of Bearclaw. And considerable less angst.

So, I just finished reading that last night and jeez... Bearclaw is practically a villain in this. He's the complete package of moronic, abusive, drunk. Was it Wendy's intention to make him so easily hated? I honestly don't find him very forgivable either, not even toward the end where he genuinely tried to change.
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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:36 pm

Quote :
(12) Ember's supposed to cleave to the Way and is apparently a very traditional Wolfrider. Therefore, she would have no reason to defy Recognition outside of being captured. They were in a safe place,free from humans and new elves are always needed. But Wendy had to push her Pro-Choice agenda with very long lived elves who have a very low birthrate.

This!  I now have a half-formed character in my head who discovers she loves babies and motherhood so much she does the opposite of Ember and turns her fertility on - like a Go-back but moreso - and starts filling the Palace up with kids.  heh.

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet - I'd like to have seen Rayek win one of the Trials of Head, Hand and Heart.  I think Leetah's eventual choice of Cutter would seem more like a real choice and illustrate Cutter's good points better.

(And of course I would not have Tim/Tam.  Arrrgh.)
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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:43 am

Ember's recognition denial was lame exactly because of this kind of shit with the pro-choice agenda. I mean, I'm totally pro-choice but I think manipulating a character and backtracking on all you've built - a rigorous set of very entrenched traditions - is just silly. I don't see it as interesting or a neat plot twist so much as it makes the narrative lose immense credibility where you don't really believe anything the storyteller has to say anymore. There's an old saying I read somewhere which roughly translates as 'Believe the story, never the storyteller', and that's a slippery slope, because in doing so, you're supposed to get lost in the story and forget things like this. Maybe I have a major problem, because I really don't. It's gotten drilled into my head forever that recognition equals kids always, and not necessarily life mates, because since you have a group of beings with a really low birthrate, they have this crazy ass thing which makes them reproduce, and it's mostly rare. Maybe next we'll find out that Ember has Go-Black blood, hmmm? Very Happy That would actually be kind of awesome and would counter the whole 'We're cousins because Kahvi was technically a Wolfrider too' thing.

Also - @manga - I guess technically Rayek 'won' initially, the last trial on the bridge until he almost fell and Cutter went on to save him and as a result won due to overcoming his fear of heights.
What bugged me more was how quickly he was discarded from the village - and while no one kicked him out, no one really seemed to really protest or seem torn that the primary hunter and protector of the sun folk, was leaving! There was just a very 'Ah well, who cares, we have the Wolfriders to protect and hunt for us now' kind of reaction. Which I always felt came off as weirdly disloyal. The only one who expressed care was Savah, later... but the rest of the sun folk weren't shown as giving a damn at all, really, and everyone was having a grand old time at the party post Cutter/Leetah recognition. You'd think the sun villagers had a case of The Way and were very much living in the Now at that moment lol*snicker*. It's just odd.

@Relena : Yeah, Bearclaw was supposed to be a nuanced character I guess, but as far as I'm concerned he came off as like 10x worse than Rayek but remains revered and there's a general, 'Ah well, yeah he had issues...but he was our chief!' kind of loyalty. Which is interesting...the wolfriders who live in the Now are very attached to their former chiefs, including a very abusive drunk one who basically was the reason many of them were killed (as well as a batshit violent one who split their tribe, but that's a whole other thing I guess?), while Rayek, who was also protector of his flock, seems to illicit no loyalty from his own people collectively, and the Wolfriders didn't give him the respect of a chief either upon first meeting, or after. So I guess it seems a bit hypocritical and one-sided. Just thinking out loud here as a I type this. I get a bit tired of how the wolfriders can do no wrong, how perfect they are, etc... The Noble Savage trope can get really annoying at times. the wolf bloodline seems to cancel out any wrongdoing for Wolfriders - so they're able to overlook an awful lot of stuff, including some really shitty chiefs who've endangered and even ended the lives of the tribe several times. And while I don't believe in the whole genocidal, pureblooded magic user cray cray stuff Winnowill was doing, I don't know that it's technically any different from that attitude the wolfriders have, that having that wolf blood somehow makes an elf better, more special, etc....





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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:41 pm

My memory isn't fresh on all the happenings and I even haven't read BoTC and I think I am also missing a few wavedancer ones.
I'd have to re-read everything with open eyes and wake mind to get the great context again and soak up all characters to make a good judgement to the initial question.

Of course you can't satisfy everyone's taste. But a few things probably went wrong in the whole story. I think a few things towards the recent publications got strange an messy. Yes, maybe it is also something WaRP needed to work at in their real life and that slipped into the story. Who knows. But we already had that "karaktermoord" mentioned in a discussion here. I need to read FQ again with more patience (had little time last year), maybe I'll understand a few things better. But maybe not.

If I could change something I'd re-read all the stuff, get the great scheme, and then maybe start making a few corrections. The original conflict with Rayek and all his development, even his mistakes - fine. It forms him as a character and gives him a lot of depth. But lately... why repeat several mistakes? Why suddenly re-conning Rogue's Curse or something? Why cling to a possible or impossible love given back from Winnowill? I mean, that guy definitely needs someone to give him some love, but Winnowill is so sick and broken in her mind, she won't be able to do that before she receives a healing. And he's clever enough to know, and mature enough to just release her in a safe environment.
I'd probably finally give him something that makes him whole. That missing puzzle part that hurts with absence. Someone who's able to be a stable counterpart. Rayek burns like a very bright star, but of course he somehow needs someone to recharge him and maybe give him a little mirror and insight so he's finds the better path.

There may be more things, funghi-elves and whatnot. And Cutter up and down and left and right, ... maybe we'll understand better once we've seen the whole thing. But maybe not and we'll all hate it. Wink Who knows.

And since there was the question about Ember and Teir couple. I don't know anymore. Yes, maybe. But she keeps pushing him away, I wouldn't label him as "clingy" but maybe sometimes close to (otoh didn't they recognize and she's pushing it all off?). I'm not entirely sure if they fit completely. But yes, I also think he was changed by Wendy. And also in / during FQ change got stronger.
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PostSubject: Re: What would you change about EQ's story   Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:40 pm

I would NOT give palace-dwelling elves those silly powers like shapeshifting oneself into a 'High One' and also those new dematerializing powers are ridiculous. I liked it when some elves had powers and others simply did not, but now appearently the palace gives everyone these powers and what do they use it for? Making themselves tall as shit and giving themselves unpractical and 'curls don't work that way'-clone-tool hair.

I would also not have Ember deny recognition. She literally denied recognition to prevent herself from suffering while she's captured and just seconds later she calls for help because Teir is drowning and they are reunited. Kinda pointless. She did not have to do that.

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