Debate: Teir or Mender?

^ Yeah, I was a bit confused about that assumption. Teir is neither a sunny top in the sense that he's got sunnyish hair, nor in the sense that he's got a sunny personality. He's honestly a bit gloomy.

And of course this went to a new page... making my arrow make no sense...

I like Mender more as a character, but I think Tier makes the better partner because Ember does better with someone that doesn't emotionally challenge her too much and just will let her take the lead. Mender is the type of elf that'll run his partner ragged and wear them out (in a good way and a sometimes not so good way lol). I actually really loved Yun/Mender, they were a great match, both crafty and sly and delicious together (haven't warmed up to Mender/Dart at all in FQ, though Sifra's comic version of their courtship warmed me to it...hilarious and cute and full of all kinds of angst.)

Evil Evie wrote:

I really wish they had kept Ember more or less out of a serious relationship. A liberate to roll around with is fine sure, but I kind of wish they had kept her a little more like skywise was, without a lifemate. To be honest though, I guess I'd pick Teir, just because Mender got waaaay to possessive in Wild Hunt.

Yep, you're right. I ultimately think it would've been great to keep her single - I liked the love mate angle but Ember never seemed to 'need' a lifemate in the story. She's awesome by herself.
Mender's possessiveness is yes another reason he wouldn't make a good partner to her - he's way complex, I don't think Ember would do good with the kind of complex type that repeatedly challenges her. Hell, she was better alone I feel. Tier's storyline would've been cool to be first a love mate and then like recognizing someone totally random.

Vaeri wrote:

Teir is nice of course, but the whole mystic and quietly thoughtful thing..it just doesn't entirely seem to fit in with the Wolfrider style. plus i find it funny she has a sunny top brother and might have a sunny top lifemate as well. XD

Vaeri, I really thought you were calling Teir a "sunny top." Your sentence above starts out with his name, and it doesn't indicate you're going back to talking about Mender. Since you've clarified it now, I understand what you're saying.

Are we really debating between the man who waited for her and who supported her even when Scouter cast her out and the coercive rapist?

Teir all the way.

Though I don't think Ember "needed" to have anyone either and, to be honest, I find it kind of insulting that after making a big deal about how rare Recognition is supposed to be, they had BOTH of Cutter's kids Recognize before they'd seen their first century.

The argument it's rare might still stand; no one else has been implied to Recognize since.

And you have a very, very good point, manga: Teir stayed with Ember. He showed some growth there, deciding the risk was worth being with her. He was there when she needed him while she was recovering.

It's true that they were great as chosen lifemates. Recognition didn't have to be in the cards. But with half the elfin population becoming immortal star-farers in limited space, being able to Recognize and not breed is going to become extremely important (Go-Backs being prolific notwithstanding), so it could well have been a needed foreshadowing.

THAT is a thought I've never considered ...

Wasn't it Teir's staying with Ember that made Mender realise that well, I'm not coming between those two!?

As for the elves living in the Palace after it leaves being able to Recognize without having children; wouldn't they just stop recognizing? Like the Gliders did.

Possibly, yes. But Ember and Teir Recognizing without reproducing looks like a Chekov's Gun trope to me, so it'd be a little dumb if Wendy didn't "fire the gun" later.

I just thought it was a matter of they recognized -> they didn't actually want children -> for once they were actually able to do something about that. Well, Ember didn't want children, Teir simply decided to respect her wishes, which - I guess - is another plus in his book.
Were there ever any case earlier with someone who specifically didn't want children? Leetah was afraid of losing her freedom, but when Savah assured her it wouldn't be an issue, she seemed quite fine with becoming a mother. The drama with Dewshine's Recognition wasn't that she didn't want children, it was that she didn't want children with Tyldak, or any other non-Wolfrider I suppose. I'm sure if she'd recognized Scouter she'd have been over the moons.

Exactly the case with Dewshine! We wouldn't have had all the drama with her Recognition if it had been with some Wolfrider like Redlance,Pike,Skywise or even Dart. She just didn't want to Recognize some non-Wolfrider. Especially one who initially treated her with contempt like Tyldak. Then it really got nightmarish thanks to Winnowil abusing her soul-name. But she wanted Windkin and was willing to kill to protect him. Likewise with Leetah,who was primarily concerned about her freedom and what type of father Cutter'd be. Plus some indignation over being kidnapped. nitelKahvi certainly had no problem retaining her freedom whilst raising Venka or Vaya,to she had nothing to do with Teir. Oddbit was definitely fertile as was her descendants! Ember's the only elf or troll shown to be adverse to having a child. Which makes no sense,considering ..................................................................................
(1) Wolfrider children mature very fast. Maybe even faster than humans.
(2) the whole tribe would help with the upbringing. Moonshade even mentioned that the chiefs's cubs belonged to the tribe.
(3) they were in a safe place,free from humans with plenty of resources.
As for Mender or Teir, why even choose? She could've had both as lifemates,gone for someone else or just engage in casual sex with the whole tribe as her lovemates/harem.

Multi-Facets wrote:

Possibly, yes. But Ember and Teir Recognizing without reproducing looks like a Chekov's Gun trope to me, so it'd be a little dumb if Wendy didn't "fire the gun" later.

I think Ember is going to die -- this ending the line of Chiefs. And the Wolfriders will give up being Wolfriders. Their way of life will end.

Lunakat wrote:

Multi-Facets wrote:

Possibly, yes. But Ember and Teir Recognizing without reproducing looks like a Chekov's Gun trope to me, so it'd be a little dumb if Wendy didn't "fire the gun" later.

I think Ember is going to die -- this ending the line of Chiefs. And the Wolfriders will give up being Wolfriders. Their way of life will end.

Maybe yeah, but not before conception at least. I can't imagine them torturing Teir even more like that. He's already got the whole abandonment issues and even with finding 'family' or whatever, I think that's just adding some serious head-screwing baggage lol.
I know there's some kind of 'choosing' agenda being pushed or whatever (makes zero sense in this context actually but that's a whole other story) but what would be the point of recognition at all in that case to hold it off and then have her die without at least conceiving? That would be really, really dumb. Tragic, sure, but also dumb as well. I can't imagine Ember being all strong and 'choosing' not to have kids only to be 'punished' but dying before at least fulfilling recognition. If an agenda is being pushed to make some kind of personal point, I don't feel the character is going to be punished for it (i.e., death). That would look really silly. But hey! - I've seen some stuff in FQ so who knows lol

And, what if Teir dies? There's always that too.
It's possible that this story might not be wrapped up at all, maybe Mender dies and the palace and the healers gone with it too and there are no recognitions between wolfriders after that. Although with characters like Pool and Sust, and even Freetouch, there's bound to be some more recognition. Which probably means more death. And we know there will be others who die, but it might not be Ember necessarily.

@Zadzi: Ehmm, are you sure, it would be nicer to Teir, if his love dies with their unborn child?

And why should the Wolfriders, without healers, not be able to reproduce? Wouldn't the prescient danger-sensor* of recognition react, when the Wolfriders were about to go extinct?



*that's one stupid explanation for recognition, why should some reproductive sense know when there is a threatening situation. Also, we've seen recognition in peaceful times

I just think it's the Recognition - or whatever force is behind it - arbitrarily deciding that now would be a good time for these two particular people to make a baby! However, as seen with Ember and Teir, what qualifies as "a good time" to have children is... somewhat odd, and of course the best time to have children would be in peaceful times, since it would give the child the best circumstances growing up.

My assumption was that recognition generally occurred during a time of heightened adrenaline. We've seen it with Bearclaw and Joyleaf, Cutter and Leetah and numerous others.

Newstar, Dart and Newstar's brother recognised during peaceful times.
If stress or adrenalin was the trigger, than there should be many more Wolfriders.
What about Sunstream? The stressful situation was created by him recognising Brill.

Recognition is one of those butterflies, which shouldn't examined too closely.

It's implied that recognition is triggered by immanent danger (the peaceful but stagnant life of the Sun Folk is cited in this case), but the idea isn't thought through

Miss Gillespie wrote:

@Zadzi: Ehmm, are you sure, it would be nicer to Teir, if his love dies with their unborn child?

And why should the Wolfriders, without healers, not be able to reproduce? Wouldn't the prescient danger-sensor* of recognition react, when the Wolfriders were about to go extinct?



*that's one stupid explanation for recognition, why should some reproductive sense know when there is a threatening situation. Also, we've seen recognition in peaceful times

Wait, what? I was saying that wouldn't probably, because it wouldn't make sense story wise.

EDIT: Oh, duh. I realized I wrote conception but left out birth LOL. Ooops. Yeah, that would be really shitty for her to die while pregnant. Did not mean that at all.

While I do think the Wolfriders will gradually go extinct, I meant that I believe the Palace-dwelling elves will be able to Recognize without reproducing; Ember and Teir were just the first to do so. The Chekov's Gun thing I mentioned.

Well, adrenaline couldn't be the only trigger, there would be others. It would have to be the two right elves at the right time. The recognition that brought about new star, Dart and Wing are unseen, so we don't know the exit specifics.As for Sunstream and Brill, being out of body probably brings in a whole new dynamic.

I'm not saying adrenaline is the reason, it's just a theory of mine. Imminent danger and adrenaline rushes do tend to go hand in hand.

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Newstar, Dart and Newstar's brother recognised during peaceful times.
If stress or adrenalin was the trigger, than there should be many more Wolfriders.
What about Sunstream? The stressful situation was created by him recognising Brill.

Recognition is one of those butterflies, which shouldn't examined too closely.

It's implied that recognition is triggered by immanent danger (the peaceful but stagnant life of the Sun Folk is cited in this case), but the idea isn't thought through

This is pretty much how I view recognition now, I keep thinking it's one way but it's been disproven to be another. There's not been any real rhyme or reason.
Lately it's been during adrenaline laden times but it's also happened during calmer times. I don't think it can really be called on for any consistent analysis - there's been way too many elves experiencing it during calm times: Bethia and Wing, Newstar and whatever his name is, Tyleet and Scouter.... even Moonshade and Strongbow, talking about how it happened on a most ordinary day for them. I don't think the urgency thing seemed to be a narrative until later. Recognition seemed very random before that.

Evil Evie wrote:

My assumption was that recognition generally occurred during a time of heightened adrenaline. We've seen it with Bearclaw and Joyleaf, Cutter and Leetah and numerous others.

Sun-Toucher and Toorah. Maybe their lives were so peaceful back then that the drama around Rayek's crush on Ahdri and his inability to actually say it was enough to tricker an adrenaline reaction.

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Well, Newstar and Lutei recognized during a 'dance', I'm sure that'd involve some adrenaline.

Redhead Ember wrote:

Sun-Toucher and Toorah. Maybe their lives were so peaceful back then that the drama around Rayek's crush on Ahdri and his inability to actually say it was enough to tricker an adrenaline reaction.

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Well, Newstar and Lutei recognized during a 'dance', I'm sure that'd involve some adrenaline.

love you so much!!

Dart was cocooned and asleep when he recognised Serrin. I don't think he felt much adrenaline at the time. Maybe he had a nightmare...

Leftover adrenaline from the battle? He obviously couldn't recognize Serrin right after, since she was an infant - or at least a very young child - at the time. Or maybe it was Serrin who felt the most adrenaline?

As for Wing and Behtia; who knows what the elves get up to during the Festival of Flood and Flowers? Maybe they were 'dancing' too? Maybe Recognition while dancing runs in the family?