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 Did it make sense?

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Miss Gillespie

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PostSubject: Did it make sense?   Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:44 am

Elfquest is, of course, a work of fiction. It's story is told to be intriguing, not to make too much sense (that's why we are told to not think too hard about soulnames).

So, did it actually make sense that Ember had a pick in her tribemates? See, Cutter tried to get the palace back and possibly solve the Winnowill problem. In case he fails, the elves are doomed. Winnowill would control the uber-powerful palace and could use the all-knowing scrolls. Winning this war was very vital. So why was Ember allowed to choose her tribemates? Leetah would probably be more useful in the war than Mender. Nightfall is a skilled archer and warrior. Well, actually, why not make use of all the Wolfriders in the war (Maybe just leave Tyleet in a save zone)? If Winnowill would have succeeded, then splitting up the tribe would not save it either.

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PostSubject: Re: Did it make sense?   Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:54 pm

In the sense it was a desperate gamble, yeah, it made sense. In the sense that Winnowill could have wiped them out had she taken control of the Palace, no, it didn't. But sometimes a desperate gamble looks like the best option, so there was a lot of faith of their survival riding on that choice, I'd say.

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Redhead Ember

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PostSubject: Re: Did it make sense?   Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:57 pm

Maybe it was hope? Basically thinking that Even if half the tribe is killed, there's still a - however slim - change that some may survive.
As for Leetah being more useful than Mender. Well... there is one major advantage with Mender; he's actually a warrior too, and (probably) not so prone to start healing the enemy as well.
And, well, turned out that Ember really needed those fighters as well...
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PostSubject: Re: Did it make sense?   Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:08 am

@Redhead Ember wrote:

As for Leetah being more useful than Mender. Well... there is one major advantage with Mender; he's actually a warrior too, and (probably) not so prone to start healing the enemy as well.

Also, she may be amenable to change, but I just don't see her getting along with the trolls (especially Flam) as well as Mender did. That relationship turned out to be a huge help to the Shard warriors.
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PostSubject: Re: Did it make sense?   Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:19 pm

For me this was the moment where I as a reader realized that Ember was no longer a cub. Her picking out her tribemates made me feel like Cutter had also come to that same conclusion. Took me until his recognition to realize little Suntop was all grown up.

In retrospect it kind of makes sense and kind of doesn't make sense. Splitting the tribe makes sense only as a desperate gamble (as said above). As for letting her pick, it seemed like that was supposed to give her confidence in her decision making. In the scene where Ember does pick Cutter says that she already told him and Leetah her choices, so they could have stepped in and been like "um, you can't have all the warriors sweetie," without embarrassing her in front of the rest of the tribe.As for choosing Leetah over Mender her reasoning always felt pretty solid to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Did it make sense?   Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:31 pm

Also- Cutter may have had some influence in her choosing Leetah. If his goal was to keep his loved ones safe (to the point that he made Skywise go with Ember)-- then bringing Leetah along to war would defeat that goal completely.

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PostSubject: Re: Did it make sense?   Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:40 pm

Oh yeah, good call.

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PostSubject: Re: Did it make sense?   Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:34 am

@Redhead Ember wrote:
Maybe it was hope? Basically thinking that Even if half the tribe is killed, there's still a - however slim - change that some may survive.
As for Leetah being more useful than Mender. Well... there is one major advantage with Mender; he's actually a warrior too, and (probably) not so prone to start healing the enemy as well.
And, well, turned out that Ember really needed those fighters as well...

Yep, exactly. I remember Ember also saying to Mender that she needed to learn 'she softness' (or something) and that's why she picked her healer mom. Of course it's also serving to keep another family member alive. But you're right, Mender was a good choice because he was also a warrior plus really great with the trolls as well! Mender wanted to go into battle. He loves it.

And as for archers - yes, Nightfall is a great archer, but so is Strongbow.

It's true what a lot of people are saying, I think it was wise to make Ember choose her tribe. It was like a rite of passage into adulthood and being chief (hard choices).
Plus it makes for cool separate stories simultaneously (I wasn't a HUGE fan of Shards but I liked most of the Hidden Years stories), and I liked how it all overlapped. Characters being separated from life mates (Moonshade, Pike, Leetah) got to have their own side of the story and have some development, and we got to see the depth of their bonds.

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PostSubject: Re: Did it make sense?   Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:01 am

Now, I'm gonna try making an "analysis" of sorts, explaining the reasoning behind each of the people Ember chose.

Dewshine: "Huntress and gatherer."
Scouter: "For his eyes."
Tyleet: "For her ears."
Their child (Pool): "For whatever wonders he'll bring."

Now, Tyleet of course couldn't go to battle. Mainly because of the fact that she was pregnant at the time and had actually started showing (unlike Dewshine in the First War and Nightfall when the quest to the New Land started), though her fondness for humans was probably also a reason to keep her away from the battle. Scouter probably wouldn't have liked being separated from Tyleet or Dewshine, and Dewshine might not have liked being separated from Scouter and Tyleet either.


Nightfall: "Huntress and warrior."
Redlance: "Treeshaper and tracker."

Ember had to pick Redlance, since Nightfall promised him that he'd never have to face battle again after the First War, not to mention that a treeshaper is a lot more useful for the creation of a new holt, than for fighting a war in a (stone) town. Nightfall - like with Scouter and Dewshine above - might not have liked being separated from Redlance, after all; last time they separated and she went to war, he almost died.


Moonshade: "Tanner and elder."

Now, this was the first time Ember actually hesitated before stating her pick, because this time she was actually separating lifemates, Moonshade was clearly hesitant and only went when urged by Strongbow. The question then is; did Strongbow's "as agreed" comment refer to a general agreement in the tribe, to accept Ember's choice, or simply to a private agreement between the two of them? Also, if Moonshade had refused to go with Ember, would anyone have forced her? Somehow I doubt it.

Pike: "I need good fighters too."

Here it's kinda Skot and Krim who settles the matter. Ember needed fighters, Wolfrider fighters. The Go-Backs? They'll do what they do best.

Leetah: "Need to learn she-softness."

Here, perhaps, the shock is not so much that she picked Leetah, but that she didn't pick Mender. He definitely seems to have taken it for granted that she'd pick him. But as I and others have already pointed out; picking Leetah rather than Mender makes perfect sense.


(Skywise: Chosen for her tribe by Cutter.)
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PostSubject: Re: Did it make sense?   Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:20 am

It's also conceivable that ember wasn't feeling as grown up as she may have pretended. She might have just wanted her mom around.

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PostSubject: Re: Did it make sense?   Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:39 pm

On a side note, it's interesting that Cutter took this as well as he did. Skywise, Leetah, Nightfall and Redlance are all his most beloved people apart from his kids. The separation from Skywise and Leetah nearly killed him.

On the other hand, this time, no one had taken them from him. They all agreed to it, and Leetah and Skywise were miles away, not centuries away.

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PostSubject: Re: Did it make sense?   Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:47 pm

Well, as Luna pointed out earlier, he might actually have wanted them to leave. Keep them out of harms way.
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PostSubject: Re: Did it make sense?   Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:32 pm

Yeah, but the thing about Wolfrider style leadership is, that it is not a democracy. If Ember would have felt it necessary to separate Nightfall from Redlance, maybe even force him to face battle again, what would the couple have done? Challenge her? She is not an elected leader but more of a monarch. Ember has to assert her dominance over her tribe, otherwise she is lost from the start*.

Also, remember, Leetah was not as in a state of shock during the palace war as was Mender (and there might have died more people than in the shards was). Maybe someone, who might block off Winnowill's powers just wasn't handy this time Rolling Eyes



*Well, I admit, Wolfriders seem to accept their leader, because they just like them and run with the hereditary thing. Maybe elves have a thing for sacred rulers?

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PostSubject: Re: Did it make sense?   Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:59 am

But Ember likes both Redlance and Nightfall. Why would she force them to separate, or force Redlance to face battle again? Especially when they probably all knew that Redlance wouldn't be very useful in the battle. Besides; good thing he wasn't there when the woods were destroyed.
As for someone blocking Winnowill's powers, they had Venka for that.
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PostSubject: Re: Did it make sense?   Mon May 15, 2017 12:10 am

I always felt her being able to pick her members was to give her just fraction of control in that sitiuation.

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