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Miss Gillespie

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:33 pm

As someone who doesn't want to have own children, I appreciate that we finally have an elf who isn't gung-ho about motherhood. As someone, who values personal liberties, I believe a person has the right to not procreate, even if his or her species/ culture is going to go extinct.
However, Ember is the "keeper of the Way" (quote by Timmain), she can't wear this title and at the same time refuse to answer the call of recognition.
So my problem is rather from a characterisation pov

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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:40 am

@Miss Gillespie wrote:
As someone who doesn't want to have own children, I appreciate that we finally have an elf who isn't gung-ho about motherhood. As someone, who values personal liberties, I believe a person has the right to not procreate, even if his or her species/ culture is going to go extinct.
However, Ember is the "keeper of the Way" (quote by Timmain), she can't wear this title and at the same time refuse to answer the call of recognition.
So my problem is rather from a characterisation pov

This, exactly, and absolutely.
If she wasn't cast into the role of staunch 'way' chieftess, then I wouldn't have a problem.
I think Wendy is trying to say 'the way is changing' and making it known in an overly literal way. It sort of falls flat though to me.
Shitty timing for a recognition has never been an issue in canon terms. They always managed to answer its call and go through with it. The whole, But this person has issues detail, and there's a war...that's new. And Recognition was always considered an overriding factor. Now that it's not, what is the damn point? If recognition itself is no longer an urgency then don't call it recognition. Ember and Tier's recognition is literally the antithesis of Nightshade and Redlance. Yet it doesn't manage to leave much of a dent.

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Sadachbia

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:11 pm

According to Wendy, that blonde girl in HY #7 was not canonical. Timmorn was Timmain's only child borne on the WoTM, but she said "feel free to speculate about any other children Timmain may have had before leaving the Star Home". You know, because they bothered breeding at that time…
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Shadowpath

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:12 pm

Erhgh, her not being canon is new. I remember her being mentioned in Timmain's original profile years back.

Likely changed her mind because Timmain running off to roll around with a wolf makes her look like a pretty bad mother.

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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:48 pm

@Shadowpath wrote:
Erhgh, her not being canon is new. I remember her being mentioned in Timmain's original profile years back.

Likely changed her mind because Timmain running off to roll around with a wolf makes her look like a pretty bad mother.

Wingthing has an awesome alternaverse story about that , with that same little girl, and also about how shitty a mother Timmain was Smile

It was said the entire tale in Hidden Years was allegorical and not canon. So it's not just the little girl, it's the entire story which isn't canon. It was some kind of idle tale Timmain was telling.

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Shadowpath

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:22 pm

@Zadzi wrote:
@Shadowpath wrote:
Erhgh, her not being canon is new. I remember her being mentioned in Timmain's original profile years back.

Likely changed her mind because Timmain running off to roll around with a wolf makes her look like a pretty bad mother.

It was said the entire tale in Hidden Years was allegorical and not canon. So it's not just the little girl, it's the entire story which isn't canon. It was some kind of idle tale Timmain was telling.
I know. I always wondered why Timmain painted herself as an awful mother and as somebody who outright abandoned her two children, left her people to die a really long death by starvation over some 4000 years where the last of their children finally died out and the dark ages of the Wolfriders started.

I just assume Timmain really goes by 'that's the way of this world'-bullshit.

That little girl is canon in my verse and she grows up to be the most bitter healer imaginable.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:31 pm

The little girl is also in my AU (at least the main one) and wound up living with an unrelated tribe of elves. I should finish some art of her…
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Shadowpath

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:34 pm

@Sadachbia wrote:
The little girl is also in my AU (at least the main one) and wound up living with an unrelated tribe of elves. I should finish some art of her…
I wanna see. What's her name in your verse?

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:54 pm

Tyah, "gift of light", because she's biologically Adya's daughter despite Timmain never having joined with him. (It was either a somewhat out-of-place divine miracle, or just unconscious use of Timmain's powers, basically stealing some genetic material from his body before it was cold.)
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Shadowpath

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:57 pm

@Sadachbia wrote:
Tyah, "gift of light", because she's biologically Adya's daughter despite Timmain never having joined with him. (It was either a somewhat out-of-place divine miracle, or just unconscious use of Timmain's powers, basically stealing some genetic material from his body before it was cold.)
Oh my god, I'm not alone in thinking she's Adya's? High-five!

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:31 am

@Sadachbia wrote:
According to Wendy, that blonde girl in HY #7 was not canonical. Timmorn was Timmain's only child borne on the WoTM, but she said "feel free to speculate about any other children Timmain may have had before leaving the Star Home". You know, because they bothered breeding at that time…
Bwaah you can't just go around declaring your own stories 'not canon' just because after 20 years you regret your decisions Evil or Very Mad

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:05 pm

That’s a big problem I have with Elfquest these days. No one has any idea what’s canon and what isn’t, because Wendy just keeps writing off bits that don’t fit what she wants to write about now.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:27 pm

@Zinegirl wrote:
@Sadachbia wrote:
According to Wendy, that blonde girl in HY #7 was not canonical. Timmorn was Timmain's only child borne on the WoTM, but she said "feel free to speculate about any other children Timmain may have had before leaving the Star Home". You know, because they bothered breeding at that time…
Bwaah you can't just go around declaring your own stories 'not canon' just because after 20 years you regret your decisions Evil or Very Mad
If I recall correctly, she either made Willowgreen non-canon or heavily implied she wasn't canon some years back because 'she's too similar to Winnowill.'

Pffffff.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:37 pm

But doesn't that make Kahvi non-canon in turn? [shaking my head] Aaargh.

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Shadowpath

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:43 pm

@Multi-Facets wrote:
But doesn't that make Kahvi non-canon in turn? [shaking my head] Aaargh.
Heheheheh!

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:05 pm

@Zinegirl wrote:
Bwaah you can't just go around declaring your own stories 'not canon' just because after 20 years you regret your decisions Evil or Very Mad

Well, you obviously can. Wink
I know this is sometimes nasty for the fans. But try to imagine the other side. It's a large "universe" that has grown for nearly 40 years now. That is a lot. And e.g. J.R.R. Tolkien also edited his world a few times over. I read some of those books (background books also) and there were mentions of "hastily scibbled between the existing lines" "struck through" and so on. Tolkien thought about his story and some years later, he thought some parts not to be fit. Of course, there we mostly got a more or less finished end-result while EQ was published in little portions from the beginning.
But yes, for the readers it can be troubling.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:39 pm

^ Yes. A "universe" as large, rich, and innovative as Middle-earth, EQ, Discworld, etc. can get really tangly for its creator, between all the details and the apparent fact that it usually takes a little bit for the creator to find their feet as the story is "revealed" to them Wink . The aggregate result is a bit uncomfortable at times, but people who appreciate a nice meaty series can generally suck it up.

EQ, however, has been all over the place in a different way. First it was "Now now, we don't want to hear any more of this 'If it ain't Wendy, it's crap' stuff!"... and then they turned around and either revamped or outright rejected the majority of what other artists did with it. And while I get that new details/evolutions/"revelations"-to-the-creator can cast some ripples in a storyline, the general arc of EQ has been in the can for literally decades. The rushed, weaksauce quality of this last series, as well as all the silly kerfuffles over release dates, come off seeming like the growing pains of an artist new to the business rather than a pioneering, veteran team. On top of that, if anyone dares to say so, these creators go off like a debutante who has heard the word "No" for the first time in her precious sugar-frosted little life. Now that's uncomfortable!
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:07 pm

@Bluetree.... I salute you! Weaksauce ...damn accurate. I kept thinking milquetoast. But I daresay weaksauce is the best Smile And the debutante comparison ..perfection!

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:37 am

My big problem with FQ - and, to a lesser extent, EQ in general for the last decade - is that it combines the most aggrevating aspects of indie comics and company owned comics.

In the indie column: shaky release dates and basically a seat of the pants/undisciplined air about the whole project

In the corporate column: random retcons, disregard for previous character development, decompressed storytelling, inconsistent art, gratuitous death

It's the worst of both worlds right now, sad to say. Happily, canon is just a jumping off point. At this point, my EQ canon ends with the Wild Hunt and "In All But Blood" material. Everything else is What-If/Elseworlds/Worldpool, whatever you want to call it.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:50 pm

@Shadowpath wrote:
I know. I always wondered why Timmain painted herself as an awful mother and as somebody who outright abandoned her two children, left her people to die a really long death by starvation over some 4000 years where the last of their children finally died out and the dark ages of the Wolfriders started.
They way I've read this tale Timmain turned into a wolf to be able to feed their people, care for them an keep them alive. And this includes her little daughter. Others could take care for the child ... but only she could keep them frem starvation.

And then she (accidentally) turned too deep ino this wolf shape - or too often and long ... and to most degree lost her elvin mind and memories.
I don't see how this makes her a bad mother who neglected her child.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:19 pm

That's just how I've come to see it, Em. I know what you mentioned is what we're supposed to see it as.

Personally, I don't think she accidentally lost herself to the wolf. She let go.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:40 pm

That's how it should be ... up to the reader HOW to understand and interpret what we see and read. And I figure this can differ a lot due to personal experiance and point of view. This was part of what made the discussions on the old SoC interesting for me - even if I could not rely to this or that at all.

I lost my last bit of curiosity for FQ and part of my passion for EQ when Wendy Pini started to tell us, HOW we were supposed to speculate and what was not allowed. :/ (I still follow FQ and find enough to enjoy - but I'm neither curious nor passionate about it.)

I can comprehend your view on it when I imagine that this is the point of viw of the little girl, Shadowpath. How "Firstbloom" might have experianced and memorized it.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:25 pm

Embala I feel the same way. I liked how I could speculate for myself about Elfquest. That's probably why Elfquest is one of the few fandoms I've done so much fanart for. I like being creative, and giving my own spin to a story. I think many Elfquest fans have done fascinating fanart, giving their own spin to the story and the characters. I love that and it's such a shame that Wendy doesn't, and that she seems to feel the need to "correct" people.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:39 am

@Bluetree wrote:
^ Yes. A "universe" as large, rich, and innovative as Middle-earth, EQ, Discworld, etc. can get really tangly for its creator, between all the details and the apparent fact that it usually takes a little bit for the creator to find their feet as the story is "revealed" to them Wink . The aggregate result is a bit uncomfortable at times, but people who appreciate a nice meaty series can generally suck it up.

EQ, however, has been all over the place in a different way. First it was "Now now, we don't want to hear any more of this 'If it ain't Wendy, it's crap' stuff!"... and then they turned around and either revamped or outright rejected the majority of what other artists did with it. And while I get that new details/evolutions/"revelations"-to-the-creator can cast some ripples in a storyline, the general arc of EQ has been in the can for literally decades. The rushed, weaksauce quality of this last series, as well as all the silly kerfuffles over release dates, come off seeming like the growing pains of an artist new to the business rather than a pioneering, veteran team. On top of that, if anyone dares to say so, these creators go off like a debutante who has heard the word "No" for the first time in her precious sugar-frosted little life. Now that's uncomfortable!

This is why I let my OCD run free and keep a detailed wiki on my own original settings… It's also worth pointing out that there's probably more consistency in my main Elfquest AU than there is based on all the rambling 40 years of stories and comics that other artists contributed with.

Willowgreen IS canon in my AU. Both of them, actually (though I renamed one of them Crocus). In the introduction to my "Plainsrunners" fancomic, one of them reciting their oral history to a cubling tells that the "mad chieftain's" lifemate, carrying his last cub, removed all the wolf-blood from the first Plainsrunners so that none of them would go mad like he did. Both the Old and New WaveDancers exist in my AU, and they meet each other and eventually merge into a single tribe (helped by several Recognitions). It's fanfiction. I can do what I want. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #22   Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:45 am

Other notes: the Blood of Ten Chiefs stories are generally assumed (at least by the Pinis) to be completely non-canon, chalked up to "Unreliable Narrator" (Elfpop wrote a few of them himself, but I imagine he'd justify that it's been 10K years and the elves are just passing memories down. Even a telepathic game of Telephone is going to lose or distort details).

I, on the other hand, just shoehorned them into my headcanon. The first anthology has a story that mentions Nightfall's mother is named Amber, so that's what I went with. None of this "she's Brownberry and Longbranch's daughter" that Wolfrider forced upon us, because then Scouter and Tyleet are cousins, and ew. (I am well aware that first cousins among humans have bred many times through history without problems, unless cousin-x-cousin breeding continues for multiple generations, but still. Elves are already low-key inbred as it is. Ew.) So Nightfall's AU parents are Amber and Runner, who was also acknowledged to be non-canon. I have extensive headcanon family trees that trace Redlance back to Kaslen and Kalil's daughter Treedancer, and give Voll and Winnowill an out-of-Recognition daughter who was neglected by her mother and adopted by a friendly member of another tribe who happened to encounter her. I made an official list of all 128 Firstcomers who were on the Palace, who survived and who didn't, who went off to help establish what tribe. Because I have OCD. I can't just "leave it all to my imagination" like Elfmom suggests. I have to establish things.
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