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Shadowpath

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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:45 pm

Huh, weird how she can demand it be done as it should on this topic, but any other day she's racist as fuck.

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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:44 pm

I think it's important to remember that Wendy, like every other person, is complex. She's not just one thing. She's racist in many ways, yes. She was born, raised, and lives in a white supremacist society, so she's picked up a lot of the slightly more subtle ways racism is engrained in us from an early age. The issue with Scarjo playing the Japanese lead in a movie set in Japan is a little more obvious, so it's easier for her neo-liberal brain to pick up the biases at play.

It was very brave to point out her hypocrisy, tho. Hopefully she'll learn something.
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manga

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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:04 pm

Any word on the fallout?
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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:32 pm

Leanan.... I just want you to know, we have an excellent Witness Protection Program here at Father Tree!


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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:52 pm

We aren't that secretive actually. Everybody reading this knows we are the same people over here that we were over there. At least in witness protection you change your name!

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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:01 am

Tbh my guess is they're ignoring the comment and everyone else is going after it.
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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:40 am

Man, this shit Scarjo thing reminds me of the current movie storm where Joseph Fiennes has gotten cast as Michael Jackson. What in the actual fuck is going on that this kind of stuff is seen as acceptable. Even Michael Jackson before his death stated that he would want to be cast as a black man if a movie were made. It's bloody disrespectful, and just shitty.

I do think they overlook what happened in the comics since they're all about 'well, we certainly do not mean it that way, how dare you insinuate such a thing, harumph!' , and it's one of those well-meaning blundering moments - but it's of course no different from any of this stuff. If you've not been raised to be sensitive about race/ethnicity, then you have to make a conscious effort to be, period. It's called being empathic. I always had a problem with how the Pinis handled it, being a middle eastern woman myself, but I let it roll over me because as someone of different color/background/ethnicity, you learn to adapt and let things roll over you (even when you cringe and watch actors from the 50s and 60s smeared with brown makeup playing middle eastern characters that are fetishized as exotic or evil or whatever. And then in more recent decades we're just cast as fucking terrorists, but don't get me started on that). After a while though, when it keeps entering the storyline so blatantly, you want them to start adapting and rolling too. You're lucky it isn't just the lily white midwest / whatever reading your work, so start acting like the world really is bigger than whatever podunk world you're used to. Get with the times - travel, read, relate.
This shit isn't a one-way street.

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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:16 am

All I can say is: Geez folks, grow up please. This whole race thing has gotten so out of whack. Simply respect each other no matter their make up as a person. Just treat others as you would like to be treated.

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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:35 am

That's a nice and ideal sentiment, Golden-- but racism isn't new. Things haven't suddenly 'gotten out of hand'-- they are actually on a course of gradual improvement. At least we are talking about it now. Hollywood has a long history of discriminating against people of color-- from hiring white actors for non-white roles and excluding non-white actors from finding leading roles, to condescending and insulting or straight up stereotypical representations of non-white characters. It's not cool.

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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:09 am

Update: I haven't been kicked out from the facebook group. But now I think maybe the Ghost in the Shell post was actually on Wendy's personal FB page. I can't check it for replies because surprise surprise, rather than discuss she's unfriended me.

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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:18 am

@Leanan wrote:
Update: I haven't been kicked out from the facebook group. But now I think maybe the Ghost in the Shell post was actually on Wendy's personal FB page. I can't check it for replies because surprise surprise, rather than discuss she's unfriended me.

Maybe it's just me, but I couldn't find your comment in the Ghost ITS thread on her personal page either. I've looked for it a couple of times.

And...really? She's unfriended you over it? How petulant. But why am I not surprised?
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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:24 am

She's unfriended and blocked people for less. Even one of the chosen few, as I recall. We also got the blame for that even though the person did the self destruct thing all by themselves with no help from anyone on this site.

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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:26 am

@Stargazer wrote:
@Leanan wrote:
Update: I haven't been kicked out from the facebook group. But now I think maybe the Ghost in the Shell post was actually on Wendy's personal FB page. I can't check it for replies because surprise surprise, rather than discuss she's unfriended me.

Maybe it's just me, but I couldn't find your comment in the Ghost ITS thread on her personal page either. I've looked for it a couple of times.

And...really? She's unfriended you over it? How petulant. But why am I not surprised?

If there's a GITS thread on her personal page, and the first post in it is the one I screenshot-quoted, I think it must be the same one. But it's possible for anyone on facebook to delete unwanted comments from their home page, so I assume that's what she's done. And since I saw her post yesterday, I must have been on her friend list at the time, so I can only conclude I was unfriended after that.

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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:48 am

I just checked - it is indeed on her personal page, and your comment has disappeared.

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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:49 am

Yeah, I assumed she'd deleted it.
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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:56 am

Good morning, Cubs and Elders and cousins alike!

I've never met either of the Pinis nor anything approaching knowing them personally, but I'm saddened to know that one of the authors of ElfQuest would choose to do something that is in poor contrast to the kind of positive storytelling they've done for quite a few years now.

I'm sorry Wendy defriended you, Leanan; I recently parted ways (voluntarily on my part, anyway) with a Forum involving a set of role-playing games I've been a participant in local play of longer than I've been deeply involved in science-fiction and fantasy and before I was familiar with EQ, because I'd been attempting to post on it but for more than a year, no posts directly or in context of subject matter were responded to (I believe the function is called adding someone to a 'Foe' list) which had suggested to me that no regular poster there wanted to involve me in sustained discourses there. If someone whom I look up to like either Wendy or Richard shut me out of a conversation that had been ongoing thus or put me at more than arm's length when I thought there was a presence of mutual respect and became otherwise, I would be deeply hurt.

I'm hoping otherwise that your day hasn't been especially poor. <hug>

-2Paw.

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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:07 pm

*hugs Twopaw* Thanks, I'm okay. Smile Thanks to everyone else who offered their sympathies and support also. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:18 pm

Leanan, good morning!

Is good. Snugs right back! I don't know if Wendy was or was not a close friend of yours personally, but if it was a slap on the hand like that from anyone I held in esteem, I know I'd be hurt. I don't think less of her, not knowing her myself, but I am sorry it happened to you.

-2Paw.

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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:28 pm

@Nibblet wrote:
She's unfriended and blocked people for less. Even one of the chosen few, as I recall. We also got the blame for that even though the person did the self destruct thing all by themselves with no help from anyone on this site.

Who did the self destruct thing? (Besides me on the old scroll!)

This is why I have never friended Wendy Pini. I'm not her friend. I'm a fan of her art and her storytelling (for most of her career), and a fan of the trailblazing she did for women in comics, and of the significant risks she took and sacrifices she made to publish her own comic... but I don't k ow her personally (though I have met her a few times and she is actually a legitimate friend of a couple friends of mine who I used to work with). But she's not my friend. I would never think it was appropriate to add her as a personal friend or make comments on her personal page.

That said, I think what you did was gutsy, Leanan. And that's pretty cool of you! Someone here said the Pinis were racist. I don't think that's the case. I think they have tried to be the opposite of racist in their storytelling-- they addressed questions of prejudice (cleverly I think) and made dark skinned characters central to their story. But they are still white (like me) and, like any white person in this country, grew up not seeing or thinking about certain things because they are not super obvious (to us). It's what is called 'white privilege', right?

Privilege is such a misunderstood term. It's a sociology term. Everyone has privilege. Some of us have the privilege of being able bodied. Some of us have the privilege of belonging to the dominant religion. Some of us have the privilege of being born into a middle class or upper middle class family. Some have he privilege of being white. And according to whatever privileges we have, we take certain things for granted-- whether it's being able to drive a car or walk into any public building (whether or not it has stairs), have an automatic national vacation on days that correspond to our religious celebrations, or not have to feel alienated or challenged by our culture due to our ethnicity or race.

The Pinis clearly aren't able to have discussions that make them feel questioned or uncomfortable in any way. The are old school-- and there are certain things the just aren't going to get I guess.

I think it was shitty of them to shut down the old Scroll of Colors for everyone-- when they could have just blocked me. I wasn't planning on going back. I think it was lame for Richard to stir the pot and try to reignite a discussion that had ended-- then get all bent out of shape when it didn't head in the direction he tried to dictate. I think it's also unimpressive that he can't debate at all. He couldn't handle being contradicted, and just freaked out. All that sucked. And it's neat that Leanan tried to call them out on it, except... What's the point? We already know they can't handle that.

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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:34 pm

@Twopaw wrote:
Leanan, good morning!

Is good. Snugs right back! I don't know if Wendy was or was not a close friend of yours personally, but if it was a slap on the hand like that from anyone I held in esteem, I know I'd be hurt. I don't think less of her, not knowing her myself, but I am sorry it happened to you.

-2Paw.

I wouldn't say she was a good friend, but for a long time she was someone I looked up to. I remember a time when I defended her when someone else hurt her feelings on facebook. I was proud of the fact that she and Richard knew who I was and would take time from their busy schedules to discuss forum issues with me. I was one of their biggest and loudest fans. But the more I saw their behavior on the forums and elsewhere, slowly my admiration crumbled. I still love ElfQuest and identify with many wonderful characters there... but I don't look up to its creators as role models any more.

@Lunakat wrote:
And it's neat that Leanan tried to call them out on it, except... What's the point? We already know they can't handle that.

Point? I just couldn't resist. It's how I react when people make rules and then don't apply those rules to themselves. I have lost facebook friends before for similar reasons.

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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:44 pm

@Leanan wrote:
I wouldn't say she was a good friend, but for a long time she was someone I looked up to. I remember a time when I defended her when someone else hurt her feelings on facebook. I was proud of the fact that she and Richard knew who I was and would take time from their busy schedules to discuss forum issues with me. I was one of their biggest and loudest fans. But the more I saw their behavior on the forums and elsewhere, slowly my admiration crumbled. I still love ElfQuest and identify with many wonderful characters there... but I don't look up to its creators as role models any more.

Leanan, good morning!

I suppose that's one benefit (if you can call it that) of not being as socially close to or more involved with the creators of the comics, games and artwork (for the most part) I enjoy; I don't really know what they're like up close in most cases (with a few exceptions, and in all of them in my case it's gut reaction to something they've said rather than ratiocinated conclusions as to why they said it in particular) so I see what they've created as more-or-less interchangeable with them as people, because of that lack in my case.

I know I found out (pre-Internet for me) who Wendy and Richard were early on in my enjoying their work, but again, that's from a distance. What they are like in person and/or over time is beyond my ken.

Stay strong, and at the least, I'm glad you'll still enjoy the work they do.

-2Paw.

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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:11 pm

@G0lden wrote:
All I can say is: Geez folks, grow up please.  This whole race thing has gotten so out of whack.  Simply respect each other no matter their make up as a person.  Just treat others as you would like to be treated.

Quote :


"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

...

"In spite of my shattered dreams of the past, I came to Birmingham with the hope that the white religious leadership of this community would see the justice of our cause, and with deep moral concern, serve as the channel through which our just grievances would get to the power structure. I had hoped that each of you would understand. But again I have been disappointed. I have heard numerous religious leaders of the South call upon their worshippers to comply with a desegregation decision because it is the law, but I have longed to hear white ministers say, "follow this decree because integration is morally right and the Negro is your brother." In the midst of blatant injustices inflicted upon the Negro, I have watched white churches stand on the sideline and merely mouth pious irrelevancies and sanctimonious trivialities. In the midst of a mighty struggle to rid our nation of racial and economic injustice, I have heard so many ministers say, "those are social issues with which the gospel has no real concern.", and I have watched so many churches commit themselves to a completely other-worldly religion which made a strange distinction between body and soul, the sacred and the secular.

So here we are moving toward the exit of the twentieth century with a religious community largely adjusted to the status quo, standing as a tail-light behind other community agencies rather than a headlight leading men to higher levels of justice."

Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Letter From The Birmingham Jail"
April 16, 1963

That's why.

You think all that "oh, wet's be nice and we-spect evvu-wee-one" CRAP is ACTUALLY going to get things done and it would laughable find it weren't so dangerous.

The only thing that gets things done, that changes the world is acting, and talking is part of acting. The minute people start talking, they get other people thinking, and all those people talking and thinking together get things done.

In three years we have gone from "he had to shoot in self defence" to actually prosecuting police officers and other people for their actions, none of which would have happened without people talking, thinking, and acting together. Already people talking about racism in Hollywood are also beginning to affect change.

But some people would rather other people stay quiet so they never have to think of the unpleasant things in life, and the status quo which benefits them never changes.
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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:32 pm

@Lunakat wrote:
I think it was shitty of them to shut down the old Scroll of Colors for everyone-- when they could have just blocked me.
I've said it before and keep saying so:
Your discussion / quarrel / whatever with RP was not the reason for the forum being shut down. If anything it was a welcome occasion to do so. "See - you've forced me to do it. It's your own fault." An excuse to do it NOW and fast and without further bruhaha.

What EQ.com became after the Scroll Freeze is exactly what Rob had "suggested" about 18 month earlier ... in the very beginning.

- You don't need a PM communication system, right?
- It would be the easiest and savest to freeze the SoC and keep it an archive.
- We'll put up a list of recommanded threads ... somewhen later.
- We'll display this or that Wendy art much better and more professional ... somewhen later.
- We'll encourage wanted activity and discourage unwanted activity.

We - this were the admins, the "Chosen Ones (Tavie's wording, not mine)". Not the community.

The old Scroll of Colors was a collaborative building done by a community, an adventure park for all sorts of interests with EQ as the leading theme. Huts and mansions and fantasy castles anyone could build. Individual creative homes, wide streets and places and secret pathes to discover.
The "Brave New World" they were aiming for - in my opinion - was a standard holiday resort with a hotel complex with uniformly furnished chambers and animated extracurricular activities.

- Fan activity besides acclamation and letters to the editor were superplus.
- Fan creativity - at least on the Scroll itself - was not much cared for. The fan art galleries were not incorporated after the site change "... might happen later ... or not at all" They not even cared to tell the members in a disclaimer that their artwork still existed. And then they did not care at all loosing a good part of it somewhen in a hack some time later.
- Interaction between fans - Who needs this? Okay, it was tolerated, most likely with gritted teeth.

So - look at EQ.com now.
Discussion "threads" (however it is called now) opened by admins only.
No direkt communication between fans, not even a "comment on fan comment" function.
NO sort of "fan to fan" activity like fanart and fanfiction.
Believe me - they got right what they had planned from the beginning. With the bonus to be able to blame US for what happened.

Would it have been so hard to tell:
"We have other plans with our homepage. Gather your belongings and look for another place to move them. This is a 3-month warning."
This would have been clear, honest and fair in my opinion. Wouldn't have liked it. But absolutely acceptable.

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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:42 pm

@Leanan wrote:
Point? I just couldn't resist. It's how I react when people make rules and then don't apply those rules to themselves. I have lost facebook friends before for similar reasons.
I admire you for this attitude and strength, Leanan.

I'd lack the balls or the self confidence or the nerves to do so. I tend to become silent and and blame myself for misunderstanding or having done something wrong. *hugs* Good to read you are okay. It's sad to see connections break and admiration crumble and turn into disappointmant. Or indifference. All the better to know that you have saved your love for EQ through the years.

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PostSubject: Re: So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...   Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:59 pm

So, I've just been talking to Kin and we had a discussion about this thread. She is unable to post this directly as she is busy with family birthday stuff so I'm passing the message on

@Kindredsoul wrote:
the cynical tone isn't needed to have a discussion. Naturally people are not going to agree about every issue on the planet. Keep it civil, thank you.

Reel it in people, please? Thanks I love you

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