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TrollHammer wrote:: If, indeed, FQ is only 24 issues, well that puts a whole different slant on the pacing for me.
I had thought that the story arc for FQ would be quite a bit bigger than what would fit into 24 issues.
I had wondered about it before,but until I read Manga's post about a 24 issue limit (quoted in another post), I didnt want to assume the worst. It tells me that MAYBE they dont have the page-space to dwell on some of the relatively "minor" stuff (stuff that used to make the OQ so interesting and fun to read) to get the meat and potatoes finished by the end, if you will.

The Original Quest ran 20 issues. Just 4 less than Final Quest.
The Original Quest was their first real dive into comics (not sure if Wendy had done writing elsewhere).
And the pacing of the Original Quest is infinitely better.

The Original Quest was broke into "arcs."
The arcs were (I feel) -
1. Issues #1 through #5 (Lose home to life at the Sun Village)
2. Issues #6 through #10 (life fast forwarded w/cubs to Forbidden Grove)
3. Issues #11 through #15 (The entire Blue Mountain Saga)
4. Issues #16 through #20 (the fight against the frozen trolls for the Palace)

The Final Quest?
So far it feels like:

Arc 1: All the elves take their sweet time getting to the Palace, while over here Ember and Tier are going on and on about Recognition, and then she gets captured, and then the humans prepare for war, and let's go back to the Palace, oh by the way - all these elves arrive. And hey, new reader - look, Timmain and Skywise are Recognized! What do you mean you have no idea what that means? Or the impact?

I think you make a very good point (I forgot to quote it), that Final Quest makes NO attempt - ZERO! - to even ease any NEW readers to the series. So if someone decided to pick up ElfQuest: Final Quest, for the first time, never having heard about ElfQuest but thought the art looked great - would have NO idea from it's very first issue to understand WHAT was going on.

manga wrote:: #1: FQ is slated for 24 issues, so issue #10 isn't even the halfway point. .

If this pace goes on, than nothing will happen until #24
Hopefully this 'moving chess pieces at their places' is finally over

Maybe the stories of future quest and rogue's curse will get rendered obsolete, I have no idea how they can fit Jink into this

Tymber, "sup" as the verb form of "to eat supper" has been around for a long time. Wendy's not cutting corners to make that rhyme.

So I was noodling about on the FAQ page today and I found a couple of things.

#1: FQ is slated for 24 issues, so issue #10 isn't even the halfway point. Though I am definitely not happy with the development vis-a-vis Rayek and Winnowill, well, I wouldn't have been happy with whatever issue of "KotBW" featured the timetrip either. I'll hope for better developments. I don't think it will involve the ret-conning of "Rogue's Curse" out of existence but there may be at least a better spin on things or even, dare to hope, the folding in of a conclusion. (Since we don't know how far out, in the elves' time-line, the ending will actually be.)

#2: "When we first met Cutter, his wolf-friend Nightrunner warned him of danger via a crude sending. At that point in the story, a few of the Wolfrider wolves retained just enough elf-blood (from the time of Timmain and Timmorn) to be able to send. Now, in the time of Final Quest, many thousands of years later, that “blood” (and ability) has been completely diluted – bred out, actually – to the point where the Wolfriders’ lupine friends are 100 percent wolf. So no, they can no longer send." No more elf-blooded wolves at all, though it seems to me that by the same logic, the Wolfriders shouldn't have much wolf blood left either.

I don't know if these qualify as Elfquest dreams, per se...

Dream #1:

Last night, I had two dreams. In the first one, I dreamed that a friend of mine had created an app called "One Last Fling." Basically, if you were a woman getting married, you could use this app to have "one last fling." We (my friend who was getting married and I) used the app ourselves... just to test it... and it summoned this very generically good looking man to our door. He had arrived in his own jet (he was a pilot) from some island in the Pacific... he had a well-defined, tan and manly chest, which we could clearly see because he was wearing a white, open faced shirt that billowed in the wind.

Suffice to say, he wasn't my type. But he was definitely my friend's type! And I just couldn't bring myself to disappoint her. We made him wait... (we had a formal, dentist's office style waiting room in the house for some reason. And he chose, while listening to the Musak, to leaf through an old Elfquest comic.

Dream #2:
I was a teenager. I had been adopted by a family with a bunch of other kids. One of them (my adoptive, baby brother) looked like Mark Hamill in the very first Star Wars... except he was child sized. I suspected that he had an older brother who looked like a young Harrison Ford dressed up as Han Solo... I looked around eagerly for this brother, only to realize (sadly) that he was dating my friend from the previous dream and had exited the scene. There were other children as well, including the little kid from Jerry Maguire. I tried to convince myself to hook up with Mark Hamil... only to put the breaks on when I discovered that he really was just a very adult-looking baby. We were about to get it on, when he asked me to change his diapers.

He was very into role playing games (odd for a baby), as it turned out. And he liked space fantasy. I gave him the new Dark-Horse, black and white, "Complete Elfquest" collections. He was into it.

In the end, we got to be guests on "Ellen." Ellen revealed that she had only a few months to live, since she had been diagnosed with cancer. She wanted to make people's dreams come true. In this particular episode, she arranged for a lonely comedian, who was searching for love, to meet his longtime, greatest fan and pseudo stalker. The woman was kooky but physically attractive. She was very, very aggressive with her affection, and insistence that he would be her boyfriend. He seemed afraid of her... I thought that if she didn't turn out to be completely crazy, and if he could get over his terror, this might be nice for them.

Baby Mark Hamil was bored and spent most of the episode reading the Elfquest books I gave him. Impressive for an adult-looking baby.

Whahahahahaha indeed Wink

Anyway, as soon as FQ book #1 is out and translated I'm getting that in Dutch and will provide all new translations at that time Wink

Rule #1 in Game of Thrones :

Topics tagged under 1 on Father Tree Holt - Page 5 PC583_KoBW3_SuntopAv

They ALL die.

@PCoquelin Thank you for all valuable help with the links to the original dolling threads on the old SoC, to dolling sites and dollmaker games. *bows* And for the glimpse on the variety of non-virtual EQ dolls - Kahvi in carefully worked armor and weapons, beautiful Nightfall in traditional leathers and this cute knitted couple of our "old married" - Redlance and Nightfall.

I'm happy to see the tektek dollz show again you've made for your lost loved one, PCoquelin. Those cute-badass Drow elves have their own appeal and are very carefully chosen - lots of detail in outfit, background theme-related additions. In memoriam.

@Tam Thank you for opening a thread for the Dollers here. *hugs* It's a completation for me even when I know there's katcombs' Dolling forum next door.

Your centaur version of Badger, Mistblossom and Moonblade filly is adorably cute, Tam. I like how you've captured their color scheme, the flowers of the treeshaper and the braided tail is such a neat addition.

@ChristinaRaibert I wish I'd have taken to time to comment while you were around and active filling this thread with pretties! Mainly a special beauty :brill: ... what a surprise! Wink

Brill's visit at SorrowsEnd would have been spectacular. I love your creative use of dollmaker items to create appropriate ears and fins the "simple" ^^ way!
Dark Fairy Brill turned out surprisingly fitting - almost a variation of the intro of Wavedanders #1.
She's so elfquesty on the Magical Elf maker. Kudos for the pearl adornements and laborious headpiece, Christina ... it adds the right vibe.
Goddess Brill is an alluring beauty, once again your way to add ears and fins fits perfectly. Of course there must be Korafay floating free and curious at her side. Last not least proud aunt Krill - slightly mor elegant as used to. This skirt is actually something I could see for her in the Palace!
Cute Heroine with an abundance of pearls ... and another charming mermaid with fantastic headpiece and webbed ears ... Brill is everywhere. Wink

Erté Brill - so delicate. You've chosen well on her clothing ... the "pearl sleeve" is an elegant completation. I see Sunstream's new flower gift ... and she's sending to her mate.

Yeah for lifemates! The Holt scene made me chuckles ... looks like Sunstream needs to be very patient when Brill insists on exploring more! In the Palace ... she really belongs there - for a love dance. Just the right look for Sunstream - modified due to to the props of the makers but absolutely his style.

You've covered the twin theme wonderfully on the Tarot card. I love you

Similarities and differrences beautifully illustrated - Brill's headpiece and Krill's collar are excellent.
I'm so glad you got the Brill/Sunstream couple in time, Christina. *hugs*
And you got Kroosh to pair up with shy Minnow by Nightsea! Fishy

Dolling nostalgia! Gaian Brill is a cutie - she has all she needs. All ... besides Sunstream. *huggles sad cutie*
And a slender proud beauty in ravishing red with a carefully designed headpiece again.

Now for the shoal ^^ ... those dollz are so tiny and detailed, Christina. Looks like a combination of base, pixel work and free coloring. Chosen poses very much in character. Outfits and adornements carefully designed. Great hair - floating and lively shaded.
Brill and Farbright are beauties of the seas. Haze is watching for landers to protect his loved ones - supported by Krill. Moonmirror is a huggable darling and Longfin stands regal. Pregnant Sandsparkle with Skimback in protective mode and teasing jester Spine. Oh, he's SO in cahracter! As is Spray ... her pose is so cover girl. ^^
Surpise - there's Cutter! Totally chief mode with his fur vest. Excellently done!

Last not least a new-old unknown one. Strangely his name sounds familiar to me. The way you've described his personality and the vibe showing in the picture ... you have captured his essence, I think.

I hope you'll come back and join us in discussion, art and playing when you time and mood will allow again. Take care and be well, dear friend.

@Nightsea Thank you for being here as well, Nightsea. You were always and are an inspiration for others to doll.

Great take on Kroosh! You've made a wonderful male "base" for the Tarot. I love how you've shaded the skin and worked out muscles and facial features.*chukles at the fish bones* He goes very harmonic with the female base.

Fun suggestion for the game card. Very Happy

I love the duality and the humorous approach. Glad you've added the "clean" original dolling art - Island Nightsea is eye candy.

Stonehowl is Nightsea bait! *claps* Stream looks so delicate and dreamy. Fair friendly colors and sheer fabrics suit her ... I could image her this way in the Palace. Almost fragile. I like that you've hinted her magical power. Starrmane is a beauty ... floating like the spirit she is ...
Mesmerizing green eyes for Shadow! I love the color sheme for his duds - just black and brown and grey fur. The head-body fusion is flawless.
Please continue this awesome work and bring more Stonehowl characters to visible life, Nightsea!

Your mermaid Sunstream makes me think of a spontanous visit ... and an eager jump into the water without waiting for maical transformation. ^^ As usual you have taken time for careful ear and finger/toe edits - flawless.

@Fairyring You are right - Sunstram looks like a more human version of his elfy self. That's the point with dolling ... you rarely get the real look but an impression, a variation that is good enough to capture the character. And you can do it without being a traditional picture artist. I've developed my own pov on it - not going for major similarity but for: How would he/she look in this fictional world / area? It's another kind of fun ... Very Happy

You've got the principle! Chosing the Centaur maker for the first dolling ensemble of your elfin family proves. Strongshield purblish blue and gold goes well with Fairyring in shades of pink. Pink/red and flowers - you should draw her in this variant outfit. (Must look very much like you. ^^). And Breeze ... he's so your little one I love you

They turned out adorably, Fairyring. Welcome to the Dollers. sunny

Yeah, this base isn't perfect for the elfin form, to be sure! I just did my best to make Sunstream out of it because #1) I found the "see thru" clothing options in that maker to be just perfect for Sunstream
and #2) I know CR and PC here both like this character very much and #3) I haven't tried to doll him much. I did my best on the hair, fingers and cheekbones to improve the resemblance. I agree it isn't
a perfect likeness, of course.

But dolling isn't an exact science. If I could just draw things myself, if I could mimic Wendy's art without flaw...ahhh...we can dream in technicolor, right? lol

Anyhow, sometimes I do find a base body that is closer in form.

Tymber, what did you think of this rendering of what is supposed to be your character Shadow:
Topics tagged under 1 on Father Tree Holt - Page 5 Shadowonheromachinebase

Topics tagged under 1 on Father Tree Holt - Page 5 Shadowonheromachinebase

I took the description for colors and his outfit from source material you had elsewhere as I recall.
His base body came from Heromachine and his face is Cutter edited and resized.

I can take feedback, alter images further. I don't mind. I like to do my best to get something
that makes others happy as well as something I find personally pleasing. I work online with
software that has some fun options, but again...I'm a doller...not working with my own original
art so there are some limits to my skill, the software and warping one style of art into another.

I'd make more of your characters for you, Tymber, if you wished. Work collaboratively if you like.
I'll submit some images, you give your ideas...we'll play around with getting more faces or looks
for your tribe if you might enjoy that. Or, even more fun might be if you tried to doll some for
yourself. Try the doll makers, see what outfits or poses there are...it can be really interesting
to just "design" a visual image for someone that is only text or ideas in your head.

I love getting others hooked on dolling EQ style.
Hehehe,
--NS

PS: The starfish is just being inspected...I'm sure it's safe! Wink

Once upon a time (April 2010) there was a grab bag with the followwing elements:

internal conflict
"ya think?"
love
someone caught red-handed
things start to happen
Crrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrazy

It inspired me to write one of my very rare "prose" stories - pretty accurate how my first contact with ElfQuest went.

How things started to happen................................................................

*Ya think?* Disaproval. *You are too old for this!*
*... but ... this cover is too beautiful ...* Once more I had caught myself with a comic book in my hands - this comic book! *The wolf looks fantastic ...*

*You are an adult, are you?!* Once more I tried to make up my mind - should I really buy it? *Crrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrazy*
*These figures are so graceful ...* Once more I was too ashamed to pay for it at the cash desk. *... but elves are for children.*

The voice of reason (or my shyness) had prevailed over the instinctive wish to possess this album - if only for cover art's sake. I didn't know that it was too late already ... I would return again ... and again ... and finally buy it - read it - fall in love forever.

.........................................................................................The Beginning

Topics tagged under 1 on Father Tree Holt - Page 5 Ew01_510

Topics tagged under 1 on Father Tree Holt - Page 5 Ew01_510

(first German edition of EQ #1)

kathleen3.0 wrote:: I think I liked some of the BOTC artists. The one who did Rahnee captured the dreamy, animalistic quality of her story very well.

Could anyone tell me which one this is? I didn't read all BOTC, but have been going though every issue these last 30 minutes to find this one. The only one in which Rahnee appears, as far as I can find, is #1 which is mostly about Timmorn. I was quite pleasantly surprised about this one though (never read it before). The watercolors are amazing, so are some of the animals and Timmorn is mostly very well done... the other elves are quite ugly though... Very Happy

I read one of the stories done by Sonny the other day and actually I didn't read the credits and thought it was done by Wendy at first, though after a couple of pages I seriously began to wonder in what state she was when she drew it...
Well... Sonny's definitely not the worst, If only he had done all the artwork that has been done by other artist beside Wendy over the years, he might have have gotten quite good in the end Very Happy

I just read about it so many places... those people must've gotten it from somewhere. My guess is it's from the BoTC prose stories.

However the official bios simply have Moonshade as a possible daughter of Brightwater.
The Elfquest Wiki, on the other hand, has Brightwater and Mantricker as lovemates, and Moonshade as their daughter. But while I'm willing to believe that Moonshade is the daughter of Brightwater, and that Brightwater and Mantricker were lovemates, I don't believe Moonshade is Mantrickers daughter. We all know that being (longterm) lovemates doesn't necessarily lead to Recognition.

Just a few more things:

1: It might just be me, but referring to Ember and Teir as simply being 'Recognized' sorta implies their relationship is like that of Dewshine and Tyldak. What's wrong with calling them lifemates?

2: Turns out Serrin and m-Door are... alive.

3: We first saw Tingeh in Final Quest #1. Though she was only named in #7.

Ahhh! I just feel he came out more ichthyan than lepidopteran!

Meanwhile... Doodling at work. AU idol singer L'ree, who's first single Blue Nightingale quickly went #1

Topics tagged under 1 on Father Tree Holt - Page 5 BlueNight

Topics tagged under 1 on Father Tree Holt - Page 5 BlueNight

I guess you can kinda tell it's Dewshine...? I never notice the wonkiness until AFTER I scan...

Misc speculations, with insightful entries from @Embala! Very Happy

I wished to quote @RedheadEmber's posts too, but I couldn't find her in the member list and I'm not going to post the without her permission... Red, hope you can find your way here!

Birth orders; first draft.

Spoiler:

ChristinaRaibert wrote:: Coral is said to have died "more than eight eights of eight" before "Turning Tide", so approx 500 years, during the Palace's disappearance. By that time, we know that:
- Brill (and Krill, since they're twins) was already alive, and Haze and Farbright not yet dead (I may be wrong but I'm very much persuaded the elf pushing Coral's boat into the water is none other than Haze himself. The face features are spot on, although he wears a different outfit).
- Darshek, also a grown up
- Longfin - this one is self-obvious, or we wouldn't have Darshek
- Redcrest, said to have shaped the boat where Coral's body was put
- Surge, who was already an adult as well
- Spray (and probably Salt, since he's the absolute eldest of them)
- Reef AKA The Broken One (who was at the time already broken - see below)
- Probably Skimmer (again, see below)
- Spine (since it's him who tells the story, not as if he's merely heard it from another storyteller, but as if he was truly there when it happend - eg. "WE placed her body in the finest of Redcrest's boats...")
- (Possibly) Strand - an elf who has long hair pulled back helped Haze (?) push Coral's body in the water. *If* that is him, there are good chances that Pearl, Redcrest's lifemate, was alive already - assuming her to be the mother of both boys, Kroosh (younger) and Strand.
- (Possibly) Fairshell (an elf who looks much like her can be seen standing behind Surge in a flashback while he's talking to a couple who looks suspiciously like Haze and Farbright).

Zephyr's band took off some undetermined time after that episode - Surge "trained" the WaveDancers for defense after the death of his mother - and we know for certain that Foam wasn't born until well after that; she said in WD that she's too young to remember of the tribe's split. Snakeskin, I'm ambivalent about - he sure speaks of Zephyr and his band as if he recalls them personally, but he's not shown grieving with his father at Coral's funeral, nor immediately thereafter. It is also significant that Spine never once mentions him in the story. My idea is that he was born right after or short after his grandmother died, between her slaying and Zephyr taking off with his followers; he could have very well been a pip at that time, which would make him younger than Wavecatcher. Wavecatcher is another tough one - if we knew how much time exactly passed between Zephyr's venture and Coral's death we might know whether or not he was alive at that time. Right now he's a "maybe", I'll have to re-read his parts to see if I find any clues in there.

However we know of at least one event that took place before Coral's death, and that is when Winnowill "broke" the Broken One. That must have taken place not very long after she was dropped on that island by Tyldak - she looked way more weak and needy than in KOTBW, when she's standing in the rain and has that defiant look to her. So it must be even before the Palace's disappearance, roughly between SABM and KOTBW (this might partly contradict with Spine's statement that Crest Point had been the WaveDancers home since "only a few spawnings", but we don't know how exactly what he means by "spawnings" and how often these occurs. Another possibility may be that the WaveDancers hadn't settled at Crest Point yet by that time, and were still wandering in "fish school mode" - but the flashback about him in EQ2 says clearly that Reef was "from the elfin settlement of Crest Point". Either one of the two captions is to be believed a mistake or a "spawning" could occurr only rarely in a thousand years - we just don't know.)

By the time Reef (referred to as "the young WaveDancer") meets Winnowill, he's "one of the three healers" of Crest Point. If he's one, and Skimmer is the other (because we know she worked to restore him. Surge says to Snakeskin; "Your mother knew only one failure - and you were right to remind me of him"), the third could be either Skimback or Snakeskin (which would make him very much alive at the time of Coral's death). But Snakeskin said that "something in the far past" made the Broken One "broken", and the vague way in which he mentions his accident makes me think the third healer might indeed have been either Skimback or another character we don't know about. I'm tempted to go with Skimback, and if I am right, that would make him one of the oldest WaveDancers who's *not* an "elder". Salt, Spray, Longfin and Redcrest are all adressed as such, meaning they were older than him; Surge and Skimmer might have been either much older or (at least in Skimmer's case) around his same age, either ways adult if both Skimmer and Skimback had already come into their own as tribe healers. Since Redcrest strikes me as the "youngest" of the elders, though, I'm guessing he was only slightly older than Surge.

So if we were to order the births, this is what I have thus far;
- Salt (the eldest)
- Coral (but she could have been older than Salt as she predeceased him; Salt is only the eldest living WaveDancer).
- Spray (called "elder")
- Longfin (called "elder")
- Redcrest (called "elder")
- Surge
- Skimmer
- Skimback
- Reef (probably born not even 100 years before Winnowill made him "broken")
? Haze, Farbright, and possibly Fairshell (though whether they're older or younger than Spine we have no guess)
- Spine (between the Broken One's incident and Coral's death - again, he could be older than Haze, Farbright and Fairshell)
- Darshek, Brill, Krill, and possibly Strand (adults or young adults at the time of Coral's funeral)
? Zephyr, Wavecatcher, Gull, Sandspinner (could be born before or after Coral's funeral)
- Snakeskin (not alive when Coral died, but remembers Zephyr & co)
- Wsvelet
- Foam (and possibly Kroosh but I can't be certain)
- Tumble and Moonmirror
- Puffer
- Korafay

No-Ripple, or an elf who looked a lot like her, was seen standing behind Skimmer as she healed an injured male elf, but we have no idea when that took place so she could have been born any time between Skimmer's birth and her death (a season before "Turning Tide"). Stormsong, Pirn, Shadowcrest and Drift can't be placed anywhere because we don't know enough about them; Pirn was certainly born before Coral's funeral, or we wouldn't have Darshek, but it's tough to say if Longfin was in a threesome with him and Shadowcrest or if she Recognized first one and then the other. The same goes for Sandsparkle; we don't see her in any flashback and we only know that her father died when she was a pip, but when that might be, there are no clues. As for Stormsong, I believe he died when No-Ripple was pregnant (Tumble doesn't seem to recall much of his father), but even here we don't know if he was older or younger than his brother Spine.

So the ones we can't "place" in birth orders are;
? - Stormsong
? - Pirn
? - Shadowcrest
? - Drift
? - Sandsparkle
? - Stormsong
? - No-Ripple
? - Kroosh

Floodings, and Wavecatcher

Spoiler:

Age of Redcrest

Spoiler:

ChristinaRaibert wrote:: Also - proof that I was right about Redcrest being younger than most elders! Coral's body was said to have been placed in one of his FIRST boats, so he had only just recently came into his wood-shaping powers when she died. You know... I'm actually starting to think he may be younger than Skimback. And now that I think about it - I have to look up when and if he was said to be an elder? Hmmm.... *dives back in WD-lore*.

ChristinaRaibert wrote:: Update Jan 2014; Turned out I was wrong about Redcrest not being an elder despite his grandfather status. In one of the last published chapters, Wavecatcher refers to him as "old Redcrest" - so he must have been born way earlier than the + 700 years before WD#1 I originally had him at, during the first 9000 years of the Disappearance.

Since Coral's boat is said to be his "first", that means he discovered his plantshaping gifts when he was already elderly, so we have an late bloomer compared to Wavelet (who I believe was a pretty average age for an elf-child when her powers manifested) and exceptionally early bloomers like Leetah, Mender and Korafay.

Which leads me to wonder what he might have been like before becoming the tribe's resident plantshaper. Hey, remember the talk about his hair going to and fro between straight and short and long and curly? Maybe he was the WaveDancers hairstylist, after all! If the Gliders had two elves working over Clearbrook's 'do - nothing forbids Redcrest is their WD equivalent, no? Tongue

Who knows if there were other plantshapers in the tribe before him and Wavelet? Probably yes, considering the great number of magic users... but if he had been the only one to shape wood, it might explain why no WaveDancer ever tried to leave Crest Point in over 9000 years (although admittedly, it was a safe enough home for most of the time! Humans only showed up in more recent years, after Redcrest had come into his own.) I know it's not-canon, but didn't the slave girl Windkin rescued from that troll say something about her tribe's migration/s and how it involved swimming, not sailing? If they had to swim all the way to Crest Point (and she made it sound like it wasn't "a flick of a fin"!), obviously they would not endure the same hardships without a good reason.

But once the tribe had a wood-shaper to shape trees into crafts that could carry them across the ocean, and humans began a nuisance - little wonder the youngest tribe-members leaped at the chance to sail off with Zephyr!

(BTW speaking of Zephyr, Embala pointed out in the thread about Shadowcrest that of the two elves pushing Coral's lifeless body into the water, one looks like Haze - but the other definitely looks like a younger Zephyr! Given he's about as tall as Haze (who's a grown-up, and with adult daughters to boot) that would make Zephyr a few years older than Wavecatcher & co, logically when you think he was the leader of the expedition. My bet is that he was at least 120/150 years - already taking responsibilities upon his shoulders, already mature for his age, already confident and enough self-assured to lead a band of young WaveDancers into unknown waters, some 200 years later.)

Wavelet and the village of the people

Spoiler:

ChristinaRaibert wrote:: Hmm... how long do you suppose a human's lifespan in the Forevergreen jungle may be? 'cuz Wavelet spent "five human generations" in that village.

Embala wrote:: Talked with a friend about this ... 50 years average (if they survived childhood), 60 when they grew old. And they will procreate early - in their 20th and young 30th ... females might be much younger!

Was it "five generations" or "five generations since Perith"? Would make it six generations then.

ChristinaRaibert wrote:

Five, according to Windkin. So that'd make her 300, most of which Wavecatcher spent wandering around - until he met Yun (he said he didn't move again in the hope that she'd return). Poor Wavecatcher - little wonder after so long time, it must have seemed to him a wonder to see another elfin face!

If Coral's death was 500 years before the current WD story, that leaves about 200 years for Zephyr's band to leave Crest Point and establish at Cavernsong. Let me re-read the passage...

Wavecatcher wrote:: "How many turns have I searched? How many turns since we left Crest Point to seek a second home... to find that peace that comes only when one has one's fish in several nets... How full of confidence Zephyr was... even though he, like we, knew little of the vast sea beyond our shore. So much the leader! And, after days upon days, how beautiful the new land looked... We named it Cavernsong, for the way the breezes whispered and sang as they blew past the caves we made into homes... And comfort we did find - in the bounty from the ocean... in the gentleness of the skies... and in even more joyous ways... in new life!

Makes sense. Although it says nothing specific of how much time they passed at sea, I'm guessing it wasn't that much by elf standard - he speaks of "days upon days", but not of "turns". So my guess is that while it took *years* to get from Crest Point to Cavernsong ("an ocean's breadth away"), it's still a relatively little amount in term of elf life. Even just a year would have little importance to the eyes of immortals like Zephyr and Wavecatcher, no?

And bingo! Wavecatcher says clearly that none of those who were in the band knew anything about the oceans beyond Crest Point. Spine says that Crest Point was their home since only a few spawning when Coral died, so Zephyr's band is younger than all those who first settled in that very home (at the very least up to Skimmer and Skimback). So at the time of Coral's death they could be anything from young pips to not even born. That sets me in my belief that they sailed off toward the end of the 200 years lapse between Coral's death and their arrival at Crest Point.

Embala wrote:: Think again, Christina. A generation is not the average lifetime of an individual but the average reproduction period. This would have been 20 to max. 30 years.

ChristinaRaibert wrote:

My bad - I misremembered that quote His exact words are;

Wavecatcher wrote:: "You've been here the span of five humans lives?"

and she said mere moments before;

Wavelet wrote:: "Perith was the first one I know. He had a son, and that son had a son. And from that man's son came Marish, the village elder who cares for me now."

So we have to count Marish as a full 60s, since he's an elder by the time Windkin and Wavecatcher run into his village.

But there's more!

Wavelet recounts how she came into her own plantshaping powers;

Wavelet wrote:: "After the battle, he (Perith) brought me here and raised me along with his other children. [...] But one day, when Perith's son was an old man, I found that I could make plants grow and bear fruit with a touch. Since that day, the village has called me Good Spirit of Plenty."

Yay Now *that* takes me a step closer to figure out where everyone fits in the timeline! Let's see... Perith's child was an old man when her powers manifested. So that makes at least 60 years if he was born about the same time as her. But when she says "Perith was the first I've known. He had a son", it makes me think she was at least old enough to remember when Perith's child was born (Perith seemed quite young when he ran into her - I can easily imagine him being twenty-odd, though his sharp features make him appear older). So... if he sired his "son" (she speaks of other children too, but I think she means it metaphorically - as in that he was the human leader and raised her with the children *of the tribe*), say, twenty year after he found her - and she'd still be a pip, since the Tumble, Puffer and Moonmirror while older than Sunstream are considered to be children still - that'd make her around 80 when her powers manifested.

Now, of course, there will be earlier and later bloomers - Korafay's magic abilities became obvious mere hours after her birth (although one can argue that might have something to do with her father being so special, as well as with the closeness of a piece of the Palace). But I'm assuming it's fairly normal for a WaveDancer magic user, at roughly 100 years old, to get a first brush with their magic.

Wavelet looks like she's barely hit her teens in the flashback - so, considering she could be anything from 60 to 80, it makes sense that at 100 a WaveDancer could be considered a "youth", and a young adult at 200. (We'll have to see how fast Korafay develops in the 40 years of the Prologue, though she seems to have a head start in just about everything, so it wouldn't surprise me one bit if she looked older than her age. After all, her father would be a mere pip by WaveDancers standard, but his soul is much older and akin to a High One's so...)

What this tells me;

- Zephyr and his band can indeed be 200 when they left Crest Point - they're certainly adults, but "young" by tribes standard, and it would make perfect sense that the young generations sail off to look for a new, safer home - while the elders linger back, uncertain and disapproving. My bet is that Zephyr & co were young pips when Coral died, and Snakeskin was born later - that could be a few years or more or less a century.

- Redcrest was at least 100 by the time of Coral's death - as the one that took her to the sea was his FIRST boat. Maybe even 150/ish - I guess even for a magic user it'd take some training to go from first woodshaping attempts to the creation of a fleet of boats; I doubt he could do that overnight. If he was an average-late bloomer, he might have even been 200 which would make it plausible for Strand to be the long-haired elf pushing Coral's boat in the water.

- Darshek, Brill and Krill were all at the very least 100 years - or older - because they all looked grown up, and Darshek himself is later shown shaping the tip of a spear in stone. I believe Redcrest is slightly older than them (but not by far), and Strand may very well be the same age as them.

Skimback

Spoiler:

Age and development of pips

Spoiler:

ChristinaRaibert wrote:: The problem is figuring how quickly the WaveDancers pips age!

Right now we have the following to work on. Sunstream is 18 when he Recognized Brill, and she says that Tumble, Puffer and Moonmirror are (physically) "older than him". That could make them any age from 20 to 40, or even older...

... because in Wavelet's recollection, she says that ""After the battle, he (Perith) brought me here and raised me along with his other children. <...> But one day, when Perith's son was an old man, I found that I could make plants grow and bear fruit with a touch. Since that day, the village has called me Good Spirit of Plenty."

And the flashback shows her as being very young, barely a teen. Now, we don't know how old Perith's son was at the time of Wavelet's birth - she says "Perith had a son, and that son had a son". Does we have to take it litterally and assume that his son was born after her - something she witnessed - or merely her way of explaining to Windkin and Wavecatcher how long she's been alive, by human generations (possibly the only way of "counting" she knew)?

I guess we'll figure out more when we see Korafay in Final Quest - she should be roughly 40-odd. Chitter acts and looks like a young adult, but she's a Wolfrider. I wonder if Korafay, born within few years from her, will look older or younger - and especially how tall, compared to her parents. That would take me a step closer to figure out the ages of the Crest Point pips, and of Wavelet when she discovered her talents.

S

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In the preview pages for issue #1, Sunstream says she's "well grown"... though we don't know to what extent yet. He might just mean that she's not a baby anymore and he feels confident leaving her, and the WaveDancers, for longer time to carry out his duty. Or he could litterally mean that she's grown-up like Chitter - we'll just have to wait and see!

(Of course, this also brings up the question of how old she is psychically. Her father at 18 was already responsible and "grown up" in his own way, so Korafay might take after him being the next "child prodigy". But it might not be the same for all WaveDancers kids.

"Since only a few spawnings"

Spoiler:

Snakeskin's age

Spoiler:

Korafay in "Final QUest" Special

Spoiler:

The timeline in the "WaveDancers" story arc

Spoiler:

ChristinaRaibert wrote:

YAY! Snakeskin, Surge and Spine's bios are up - and they shed some light over the timeline!

Quote :: When Surge returned from self-imposed exile, father and son were soon at odds, though it would be many years before their antagonism came to a head.

Quote :: Though many years passed, matters came to a head when Snakeskin’s longstanding attempts to heal the Broken One triggered a confrontation.

It's still vague, but at least gives me a clearer indication of how much time was elapsed between the two storylines! Looks like I'll have to move "Turning Tide" and "Wavedancers" much earlier than I currently have them. My guess is five or six years after the birth of Puffer (he did look really young in "WaveDancers" IMHO), and then thirteen/fourteen years pass between those events and Sunstream's meeting with Brill on the astral plane.

(Does this mean that Sandsparkle and Skimback actually had their baby, if just for a little while? I certainly hope so!)

What does not fit is Wavecatcher... at least if we're to believe the captions that set his story at the identical same time of the "WaveDancers" story arc. According to my estimations, Puffer was born about seventeen years before "Shards" - but there's only a year between "Shards" and the "New Blood" arc with the Door war in the Forevergreen. So Wavecatcher could not run into Windkin when Puffer was just six - 'cause he still had not met Yun.

My sense is that we're to disregard the implication that the two stories took place in the same time-frame. Just as with Ardan Djarum being a descendant of the Djun, a fact that obviously got retconned (he might be a distant relative - perhaps he was originally born in the Citadel and then moved to Farcast.) If "WaveDancers" took place at a completely different time from Wavecatcher and Windkin's adventures - then it all fits; it's Windkin who ran into Wavecatcher one year before Discovery, then he parted ways from him and Wavelet (don't tell me someone killed them? My ominous feeling about their fate is growing stronger and stronger by the minute... and I pray I'm wrong) and returned to the abandoned Sun Village, where he was picked up three years later by Leetah and Skywise.

(This still begs to know why Windkin never mentioned Wavelet and Wavecatcher to the other WaveDancers, during the time Sunstream lived with them? Or he did, and we'll be meeting them in future installments? I'm hoping very much that it's so - either this or they decided to found their own tribe - because the only alternative leads back to the ominous feeling I mentioned above, and I don't want to go there)

RedheadEmber wrote:

ChristinaRaibert wrote:: (Does this mean that Sandsparkle and Skimback actually had their baby, if just for a little while? I certainly hope so!)

Me too!

ChristinaRaibert wrote:: but there's only a year between "Shards" and the "New Blood" arc with the Door war in the Forevergreen.

Actually, 'Shards' took place at the same time as the 'Forevergreen Arc'. Dart and co. went to the Forevergreen after the Palace had shattered, and after the Palace had been restored the band (sans Jethel, Chot, and Dodia) were picked up in the ruins of the human town.

ChristinaRaibert wrote:: either this or they decided to found their own tribe

The same way Savah and Yurek did?

ChristinaRaibert wrote:

RedheadEmber wrote:: Me too!

Maybe we could even get some flashbacks as to how s/he looked like Laughing Pike

RedheadEmber wrote:: Actually, 'Shards' took place at the same time as the 'Forevergreen Arc'. Dart and co. went to the Forevergreen after the Palace had shattered, and after the Palace had been restored the band (sans Jethel, Chot, and Dodia) were picked up in the ruins of the human town.

Ah, okay, I misremembered that one Cutter Smile

So Wavecatcher would have spent about two years waiting for Yun (not that he counted, tho) before he ran into Windkin. Something more if that story took place during Brill's pregnancy.

RedheadEmber wrote:: The same way Savah and Yurek did?

Yeah, possibly Cutter Smile

They could have headed inland and joined Jethel, Chot, No-Name and Dodia (if she wasn't killed by those humans chasing them). Or maybe they took to the water - in which case they might end up even on Rayek's trail, for all we know!

RedheadEmber wrote:: You do know what I meant by the same way Savah and Yurek did right?

ChristinaRaibert wrote:: *chuckles* They're going to repeatedly Recognize each other?

On Wavecatcher

Spoiler:

On Ardan Djarum, Kahram and Grohmul Djun...

Spoiler:

No-Ripple and Stormsong

Spoiler:

Some of my sources...

Flashback #1 (Turning Tide) - first elves to be killed by humans (if we want to be technical and *if* it's Haze who pushes Coral's boat in flashback #3, then Coral was the very first human victim, and Haze and Farbright probably died right after), as well as deaths that took part only "last storm season" before Turning Tide. We later learn that Skimmer died before Moonmirror's parents ("the storms had come and gone only twice since Skimmer and Surge vanished").

Flashback #2 (Metamorphosis) - set after Coral's death, when Surge wanted to fight the humans back.

Flashback #3 (EQ2#1) - Coral's funeral, set about 500 years before Turning Tide.

FLashback #3b (EQ2#1) - (cont.) from Coral's funeral to the departure of Zephyr's band (when?).

Flashback #4 (EQ2#2) - Skimmer healing a random elf. Took place before her death in the storm season before WD#1.

Flashback #5 (EQ2#5) - Wavecatcher recounts that he met Yun "eight-and-four floodings ago". What's a flooding and how often does it occurr?

Flashback #6 (EQ2#21) - Zephyr's band takes off from Crest Point (some undetermined time after Coral's death).

Flashback #6b (EQ2#21) - (cont. of the above) Zephyr's band settles at Cavernsong after much time at sea. Later on, Wavelet is born.

Flashback #6c (EQ2#21) - (cont. of the above) Zephyr's band is slaughtered, when Wavelet's still a tiny infant (Marish found her a newborn babe in the woods). If we can figure out Wavelet's age then we'd know indicatively for how long Wavecatcher has been wandering before he met Yun. Trickier to say how much time it took for Zephyr's band to reach Cavernsong so we can figure out how much spent they spent journeying and how much in their new home.

Flashback #7 (EQ2#31) - WaveDancers have already settled at Crest Point, and there are three healers in the tribe, when young Reef goes off to explore.

Flashback #7b (EQ2#31) - (cont. of above) set short after Tyldak dropped Winnowill in the island at the end of SABM. Reef runs into her.

Flashback #7c (EQ2#31) - (cont. of above) Reef is "broken" by Winnowill.

Flashback #8 (EQ2#31) - First and only mention of Stormsong and how he died. No hint as to where his death should be placed in the timeline, tho.

Flashback #14 (missing chapters) - Darshek sees the ghostly Pirn and Shadowcrest. If he knows what both of his mother's lifemates looked like, he must be the oldest of the siblings (because Pirn died when he was just a baby. Longfin says that "Darshek barely knew his father Pirn", and Salt later comments "Pirn will be happy to see the grown son he last saw as a newborn pip". So Pirn, at the very least, was already long deceased at the time of Coral's funeral in flashback #1).