Final Quest #12

Just finished reading #12.

Just one question? What Crack pipe is Windy smoking from?

Soreyes wonders off shaking his head because he is totally lost.

Shadowpath wrote:

I'd guess it's either that 'THEY MUST LEARN THE LESSON OF PAIN'-thing she seems to subscribe to or she's not entirely...sane.
Or it's just bad writing.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who elevates "the lesson of pain" to the point where people are dying ISN'T entirely sane.

Srsly, Timmain, take a middle school science class. The whole point of pain is to teach you to NOT do whatever it is you're doing!

(and yes, I know she means it more metaphorically, but come on! Her constant martyrdom is such a turn-off.)

I'm still a little confused about she and Aurek's interaction:
Him: Yep, you've pretty much destroyed him.
Her: And it looks like the other possibilities weren't all that great either

Does anyone have some kind of Timmain Translator ?

Zadzi wrote:

I'm still a little confused about she and Aurek's interaction:
Him: Yep, you've pretty much destroyed him.
Her: And it looks like the other possibilities weren't all that great either

Does anyone have some kind of Timmain Translator ?

"I've decided my descendants and I are better off dead than being written about by a hack."

Seems like the same thing happens with every issue - I read the comments from the people who have access to the issue before I do and I get all worked up about the general freak out. Then I read the issue and I'm not sure if I'm more disappointed that it's not better, or not worse. I mean, after the first page or two of comments I'm always expecting something phenomenally bad, but really, this issue is on par with everything since the beginning of the final quest.

Timmain's comment that all outcomes are equally desirable is a bit maddening. It is possible to be too objective. It just seems that instead of being wise or evolved, she is just unfeeling. Maybe that's what the Pini's value, because I also think it's weird that when Dre-ahn offers to help he does so with "no interest and no concern". And that's a good thing?

THREE DAYS the Djun's men have been attacking the village? Peaceful villagers that are showing no resistance?

But - Yay! - A Quest! The Search for Cutter! Time for them to get off their Wolf-riding non-magical butts and have something to do. I think they should get away from the palace and high ones and anything to do with magic beyond mortal wolfriders as soon as possible!

I do agree as well about Dre-ahn (sp?). The comment "no interest and no concern" read as strange to me and I reread it several times. I knew what they meant but it didn't feel 'wise' or zen, just seemed like a poor choice of words, like, oh hell, I don't have anything better to do.
As for Timmain: par for the course, I suppose.

Outlier wrote:

Then I read the issue and I'm not sure if I'm more disappointed that it's not better, or not worse.

This comment just made me laugh. It's really understandable, with the raised level of emotion and a lot of us being very worked up as we comment. I'm glad it's no worse and no better for you.
The first 5 issues or so I kind of liked actually. They weren't stellar or riveting but they were still interesting. And I also liked the Shenshen issue where she got her own story. And then it all really went downhill for me after that.

Outlier wrote:

Timmain's comment that all outcomes are equally desirable is a bit maddening. It is possible to be too objective. It just seems that instead of being wise or evolved, she is just unfeeling. Maybe that's what the Pini's value, because I also think it's weird that when Dre-ahn offers to help he does so with "no interest and no concern". And that's a good thing?

Cultural relativity meets the Kolinahr! They're all turning into Vulcan anthropologists!

First of all- no this issue is not on par with what came befor in Final Quest. What came before had been a lot better in every respect.

But getting back to this issue. I think Dre Ahn is supposed to be cognitively different from the other elves. Maybe he is on the autism spectrum? Seriously. He just isn't neurotypical. I don't get the impression that's being evaluated as good or bad-- just presented as different.

I also don't think Aurek was actually saying that Timmain destroyed Cutter. He was saying she ran a risk in revealing this to him. Apparently Timmain and Aurek have both been studying the scroll of colors. Apparently they both paid attention to the multiple possible outcomes from this event. One of those outcomes was that the information destroyed Cutter-- but I think other implication is that most of the potential outcomes did not show him being destroyed. Timmain appears to have been timing this 'revelation.' For some reason, she had to tell it now.

Cutter ran away because he was so freaked out by things he can't understand. He's not a magic user and doesn't get magic-- even though his son is the world wide web. I think the reason Timmain cautions them to not use magic to find him is, as was pointed out by other folks on this forum, is that it would just scare him more and push him over the edge. Right now, he doesn't trust magic. But he might trust a completely Wolfrider approach-- if they just tracked him down and knocked on his hidey hole the normal way.

And I don't think Timmain was saying all outcomes are equally good-- but rathe that they are equally likely to happen. One is not more likely than the rest. It's a toss up. She has no idea what's going to happen from this point on-- anymore than anyone else does.

I don't mind Reef hulking out. I think it makes sense he did that. And we really don't know what happened during his encounter with Winnowil-- we just know the aftermath. Maybe she was trying to help him, or maybe heal him, rather than shape him against his will. We don't know. We just know what Reef's broken mind thought happened.

I'm pretty sure Manga will be happy with upcoming Rayek action.
If Venka is the first elf to get shot-- there will no doubt be more.

Lastly, goodbye Paranthropus. It's been good to know ya! Take care, and keep on truckin' amigo!

Goodbye, Paranthropus. Good luck out there.

Timmain, dear, I highly doubt it's just Cutter's wolf-blood at work here. I don't know anyone, aside maybe from Dre-Ahn, who would respond to "You're a literal part of me with no separate existence to truly call your own, not even your Recognized lifemate," with "Hey, cool. Now let's finish scooping up all the elves that haven't already died on their way here and get out of Dodge."

Which reminds me, I've been meaning to say that the look Timmain gave Skywise after their joining reminds me of Winnowill's "the prey is down!" look after she worked on Rayek.

I thought it was a look of affection mixed with a 'you don't understand yet' combined with the fondness of an older person for a younger person who shows promise but has a lot of growing up left to do, and the slight condescension of 'you're cute when you are being naive- I wish I could tell you it's going to work out that way but no...'

I think the problem here is that Timmain is just very nebulous and cryptic not only with her personality, but also as a character at this point, and it's easy to project a lot on to her. If she's meant to be that way - as in, if she's being deliberately written as mysterious and with hidden intentions, then fine, but if she's really meant to remain a true protagonist, to remain elevated as a supposed goddess that represents wisdom, then it's not really very clear at all.

Goodbye, Paranthropus, and best of luck on the world of one moon. Howl and hunt free.

Hey, it's really not that bad. We all know, that Final Quest will never be good, but the level of "being not good" upheld by this issue is kind of the standard (for FiQu). Yes, the arrangement of the characters is clunky, but it has never been 'not clunky' in FiQu, (including expressions and body language). Sure, the colouring is bad, but it's not as bad as in Discovery.


Uhm, I didn't realise, that Sunstream actually left his family in danger, since they are hopping around like that it's really hard to keep track. And I thought Reef looked more like a threat for the elves.

Just enjoy FiQu for the trainwreck it is

That's in good spirit, Miss G- but I have to disagree. I don't think the previous issues of Final Quest were all that bad. I was actually following along and enjoying the storyline. I mean... yeah, I complained about the idea of "whitening" the Sun Folk-- since they are the only non-white players in the cast... but aside from that, I think the line art was great, the coloring not too bad (I think that some scenes were too dark-- Leetah was disappearing into the backgrounds, but otherwise it was okay), and the story actually tripped along at a steady, quick pace if you read it all at once, instead of waiting two months between issues. But this-- this was terrible. What actually happened-- the plot elements-- are fine to me. I have no problem with this turn of events. Once you accept and digest that Timmain is Cutter-- the rest of it works. But... the writing is bad. The staging is bad. The drawings are not great. The composition is bad. The pacing is eh. The color is gross. Sorry. It's just not good. I'm really sad this happened because I have always loved this comic. I hope this is a one-issue problem.

Part of me sincerely hopes that Wendy Pini is not reading these comments-- because she's a dear person and I would not want her to feel hurt in any way by our criticisms. Cus, you know, we're being pretty harsh.

Some other part of me hopes someone at least tells her so that she can, i dunno... have a talk with Sonny about the colors or something. Like-- can he stop using puke yellow for Venka and grey skin tones for many of the characters. Don't grey out colors as some kind of compromise because you are trying imply that it's dark out-- choose a color and be decisive about it. When in doubt, harmonize. Consider values and contrast. Color in the shading.  Consider where your lighting is coming from. Try to establish a foreground, middle ground and background-- he's done it before, he can do it again.

Please consider that nothing prints as bright as it looks onscreen- because your screen is backlit.

Please let this get better!

I had a hard time reading the story because the art was so disharmonious to my eyes.

And I have to echo some others here, what is with the skinniness of the elves? And some humans? They're basically skin and bone, which makes no sense, especially underwater, where you'd think a protective layer of fat or a waterproof fur coat would be a good idea, even in tropical waters.

kathleen3.0 wrote:

I had a hard time reading the story because the art was so disharmonious to my eyes.

And I have to echo some others here, what is with the skinniness of the elves? And some humans? They're basically skin and bone, which makes no sense, especially underwater, where you'd think a protective layer of fat or a waterproof fur coat would be a good idea, even in tropical waters.

A very good point, and this makes me want to draw chubby selkie mermaids.

Going to try and do some positive and negative things about this issue.

So that we can end on a positive note - let's tackle the negative. Mostly because it's the first thing in this issue.

The Negative:
So there it is. Confirmation of my worse nightmare. It turns out that Timmain _is_ actually a part of Cutter, having used a portion of her soul to enter the moment of conception between Joyleaf and Bearclaw. For me, it feels like this cheapens the character of Cutter considerably. When Timmain made this announcement in issue #11, I was hoping it was not literal. But more of, "Hey, I am you because you're generations of my blood." But no. They went with the literal. And this saddens me. And then it's all hamfisted - with Kahvi's comment of "I'll see you in the Palace", to Rayek's comment about candles, to Leetah's "We are one" with the water...

Something I don't understand, is Timmain alludes that Leetah knew this secret. So when Cutter bolts by them, wouldn't it be logical, since she did send to Cutter as he was running by, using his soul name - that she might have glimpsed what was "wrong" with him - especially since she apparently knew this secret? (And this bugs me, if she did know this secret all along, it seems unlike Leetah to have kept this from Cutter).

Now I am not a big fan of the Wavedancers, so they already have that mark against them. And a lot of this next bit has to do with what little I know about Reef as a character - but his "change" into that "sea creature" shape just didn't do it for me. I don't see how that's a "finished" version of his broken self... So perhaps someone could shed some light on that and change my view of this shape changing thing he did?

While I love the art; there's a few spots here where I wasn't sold. For example, when Auroree and Windkin first arrive (in the panel with Redlance and Nightfall) - Auroree looks a little off. Also, all the females in ElfQuest now have this size 0 waist line. I remember when Leetah and Nightfall used to have some meat on their bones, and the Size 0 Waistline was reserved for like Dewshine. But now, the bodies of all the females look exactly the same. Also Treestump, in the panel with Skywise and Ember, when they're discussing Cutter knowing the troll caves - Treestump seems to have lost his more, square, jagged face. He no longer looks like one of the tribe elders; but rather, now he looks like Mender (in the face) with a long beard. Treestump's more "elder" look appears again later with the other elves, when Ember is talking about Scouter helping out Tier.

Dre-Ahn. This character is just not doing it for me. They're writing him "super mysterious" - but for me, I am not feeling it. Because of his lack of speech (both in talking or even sending), this character is like a piece of card board to me. I don't feel anything, because I don't know anything about the character - but everyone else in the comic seems "Ohh and Ahh"'ed by him.

The Trivial (Not A Negative Or Positive) :
It was a bit of a bummer (not really a negative) - that Rayek had no reaction to Cutter having gone missing. Rather zoomed in, instead on the humans attacking the Wavedancers, which he has never had (to my knowledge?) any real connection to. However, you'd think for Leetah (and perhaps to one up Cutter and have Cutter owe him), Rayek would have had SOME reaction to the mention that Cutter has gone missing. Missed opportunity, I think, for Rayek to say at least something about Cutter having gone missing.

While I am glad to see something vile happening to the humans who attacked the fisherman humans, I thought Rayek's outburst and reaction seemed out of character for him. I don't recall Rayek ever caring too much about humans. And it's not Winnowill's will (which would have made more sense, if it had been her reaction with Rayek), since she specifically notes that it's Rayek's anger that has "awakened her from the slumber." So (while I loved Rayek delivering punishment), his initial reaction seemed out of character for him. This would have been (in my opinion) better handled by Winnowill's subconsciousness taking over Rayek, since Winnowill is all too familiar with humans who worshiped the elves.

Throwing this under trivial - while I loved that scene with Cutter on the last page, because it reminds me of when Madcoil came out of his cave - what the heck happened to Cutter's "out reached" hand - the arm perception seems way off to me (it looks like he has a stubby arm).

The Positive:
The art remains fantastic throughout the issue. Especially the scene where Cutter has just fled the Palace and lunges past Suntoucher. That felt like classic, Cutter, lunging pose (almost the same pose I could swear we saw in the original Quest when he lunged at Winnowill).

Now, while I find it a huge Negative about the Cutter and Timmain thing; accepting it for what it is, I do like that Cutter's wolf blood is fighting it and urging him to survive. So if I have to take this story that Timmain is indeed a part of Cutter; I am at least thankful that Cutter seems to be acting like Cutter and fighting to be himself - which I think has always been a defining characteristic of Cutter. So I did like that exchange between Timmain and Aurek for that very thing.

Cutter's departure brings a few characters that have been lingering too long in the background, back up to the foreground - at least for a moment. We finally get to see Redlance and Nightfall a few times, and even have some dialogue.

Strongbow's sending to Mender & the reaction Moonshade has.

I liked seeing Rayek back in "Sun Village" clothing; and more in touch with the colors I recognize him in. However, I wonder why Ahnshen didn't make Ekaur some clothing too? The poor guy is literally in rags, and perhaps the one - of all the elves - in need of some new clothing!

The men of Angrif Djun attacking the human fisherman was a fantastic scene. Especially when you see the difference of these younger men, well armed, well equiped, with armor on going through and slaughtering all these men, women and children - it really shows the evil of these men and it makes you WANT something bad to happen to them. Especially when those two kill that elder with the mermaid necklace. Rayek delivering the punishment was nice - being guided by Winnowill - but I was hoping since Winnowill was the co-pilot we would have seen more out of it - rather than a dark blast and they're dead with holes in their chests. I would have liked to have seen their flesh shaped so they had no nose and mouth (and thus would eventually suffocate, so you see the horror in their eyes) - or something along those lines more in line with what you think Winnowill would do and is capable of.

The end scene with Cutter, completely out of his mind, reminds me of the scene of when Madcoil emerges out of it's cave. Love that.

Agree! I always draw my mermaids plump...

It was pretty awesome to have an Elfquest issue come out on my birthday. Too bad it wasn't a better issue. :-/

To me it's by far the worst issue of FQ so far, which despite its issues I really have been on balance enjoying a good deal. But a lot of the art this issue is... really bad. So many reused drawings. The panels with Sunstream and the Wavedancers in the water have some of the most unpleasant "paper doll people" effect in the series to date.

I know Snakeskin has got to be ungodly time-consuming to draw, but there has to be a better solution than taking the same drawing and rotating the head, torso, and individual limbs X number of degrees depending on context. It doesn't work. For a bunch of reasons. The perspective ends up being subtly wrong, for one. And in the places where characters are positioned in a sufficiently neutral pose that the perspective is "ehh, close enough," you inevitably end up with the "everybody facing the camera at exactly the same plane of depth" effect that a bunch of other people have mentioned, and when your characters are in the water it looks especially unnatural because in the water you're not going to end up with any four objects/people/whatever on the same plane unless you literally attach them to a string.

There are probably a bunch of other subtle problems as well that my perception isn't sophisticated enough to pick up on, but one of the reasons I can see this stuff is because I once tried it in my own drawings on a very limited basis and then cut it the heck out, because even if I can't fully express why, I can see that it DOES NOT LOOK GOOD. And this nearly makes me cry because Wendy is one of my artistic inspirations and is SUCH A BRILLIANT ARTIST, she has AMAZING SKILL AND TASTE, so WHY IS SHE DOING THIS.

At some point just for my own sanity I want to go through this issue page by page and attempt to articulate which panels I liked and thought were lovely (there were some) and why I found the ones I didn't like so profoundly unpleasant.

Am agreeing with Lunakat about the colors being really ugly to me this issue, and I'm glad you're describing what the problems are, because I'm not good at coloring or analyzing color, and it's frustrating to look at them and say, "I just don't LIKE this" but not be able to articulate what's wrong.

Stuff I actually like a lot -- Cutters freakout, and Reef's transformation. However even there I have issues:

1. Leetah's reaction to Cutter shying away from her use of his soul name SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN RECYCLED ART. That was, or should've been, a Big Effing Deal, and using recycled art for the big moments STEALS THEIR POWER. It's not that her expression was super wrong for the situation, but if ever there was a moment that calls for a VERY SPECIFIC expression of deep concern rather than a generic one, THIS IS THAT MOMENT. Using the same drawing for Leetah so often is becoming a huge problem for me because it makes her look vapid, and she is NOT VAPID.

2. Reef's transformed design is really, really cool, and a love the concept that he's incomplete rather than broken. But for his transformation to fully work for me emotionally, I find myself really craving a couple of earlier panels of him in the palace -- in the last issue, say -- coming to some moment of realization in which we see the movement, but realization itself isn't seen until his transformation in this issue.

Ah, now I've got it... I knew Hulk-Reef reminded me of something.

kathleen3.0 wrote:

I had a hard time reading the story because the art was so disharmonious to my eyes.

I agree. And it really pains me that that's the case, because I was actively wanting to like this issue, but.

Lunakat wrote:

What actually happened-- the plot elements-- are fine to me. I have no problem with this turn of events. Once you accept and digest that Timmain is Cutter-- the rest of it works. But...

Yeah, I'm finally actually liking the storyline - I loved Cutter's freakout about his soulname, and how he can't even bear it when Leetah uses it. I'm really curious to see where this goes.

And of course, vindictive me, I am positively at how Timmain's big momentous reveal blew up in her face. And that Cutter was able to shut her out THAT fast! Just awesome.

BUT.

It's mostly all been said, so I won't add to the rants, other than to remark: The dialogue really reminds me of some of those historical novels where clearly the author has been told by the editor/publisher "Your readers can't follow all this without a cheat sheet" and so everyone goes around in the book talking about how "Did you see Richard, the Duke of Gloucester? I swore I noticed him talking to Warwick's daughter, Anne Neville, the late widow of Henry, Prince of Wales, our deposed king's son by Margaret of Anjou, who has lately come back from France."

Do you think the publisher is actively telling Wendy "dumb it down for the new readers" or do you think that's her own choice to make EQ more "accessible"?

Random observation -- Dre-Ahn's pony in this issue kind of looks like if you tried to give one of the old 1980s My Little Pony toys realistic skin and hair.

I didn't notice that the art was recycled. It didn't strike me that way-- i guess I wasn't paying attention