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Lunakat

Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 20, 2015 7:15 pm

I love part two. The interactions between Strongbow and Rayek are great!

(I only just saw the link!)

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kathleen3.0

kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 20, 2015 7:20 pm

Lol, I find I really like them together. They're freaking hilarious, each as self important as the other, and they hate it.
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manga

manga

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyMon Sep 21, 2015 6:31 pm

I love this to bits!  It took my whole lunch hour to read. Time well spent, but now I don't have enough time to comment! ^_^
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kathleen3.0

kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyMon Sep 21, 2015 6:53 pm

Thanks, Manga, have a good day at work!
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manga

manga

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyMon Sep 21, 2015 9:14 pm

Sneaking a few minutes - my boss has her cigs, I have the forum.  Very Happy

I love the development of Rayek several times over, though I think it would be nice/better if he'd said anything back to his parents.  (It would illustrate his growth more than having it come by narration.)  Also, I wonder why he's moving out again when they all seem so reluctant for him to go.  Needing space for Rayah doesn't quite cover it as the Sun Folk are used to living in multi-generational lodges.  (At least, that's the way it looks to me.)

I really enjoyed your description of the differences between Rayek and Strongow's outlooks.  Seemed spot-on to me and explained very well.

I dig that Shenshen is having her chance to "shine where she loves" so much sooner than she did in the canon and it's a very interesting direction to have taken.  I'm glad to see Osek saved and Ekuar too.  I hope it's not too late for Mekda!  

Speaking of Ekuar... will he and Rayek still develop the same connection?  Or maybe Rayek doesn't need a father-figure and friend in the same way now that he's reconnected to the Sun Folk.

The Rayek/Strongbow relationship is awesome.  They're so much alike, it's like they're destined to be best frenemies.  Very Happy


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Startear

Startear

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyMon Sep 21, 2015 11:41 pm

I haven't had time to finish today, but I must say that I fnd myself enjoying the interactions between Rayek and Strongbow. I have alwayd thought them as very similar. I also like the interactions between Shenshen and the humans.

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kathleen3.0

kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 22, 2015 4:10 am

@manga wrote:
Sneaking a few minutes - my boss has her cigs, I have the forum.  Very Happy

I love the development of Rayek several times over, though I think it would be nice/better if he'd said anything back to his parents.  (It would illustrate his growth more than having it come by narration.)  Also, I wonder why he's moving out again when they all seem so reluctant for him to go.  Needing space for Rayah doesn't quite cover it as the Sun Folk are used to living in multi-generational lodges.  (At least, that's the way it looks to me.)

It's more like Jarrah and Ingen want him to stay. Rayek is someone who likes to live alone, from what I've observed of his character. And just because his parents want him around doesn't mean he wants to be around them. Rayek's relationship with his parents isn't the focus of the story, it hasn't been dealt with, and even Rayah isn't a fix for it.

Quote :
I really enjoyed your description of the differences between Rayek and Strongow's outlooks.  Seemed spot on to me and explained very well.

I didn't want to put one above the other, but I think belief, instead of personality, is where Rayek and Strongbow differ here. Rayek thinks his way of thinking is superior, and he does influence Strongbow somewhat with his ambition for his powers. I don't know what Strongbow inspires in Rayek, besides irritated affection, but they are friends now, and they'll be forged in fire after this.

Quote :
I dig that Shenshen is having her chance to "shine where she loves" so much sooner than she did in the canon and it's a very interesting direction to have taken.  I'm glad to see Osek saved and Ekuar too.  I hope it's not too lake for  Mekda!

I'm going to be honest, I thought Shen Shen's ambitions in FQ were honestly both nonsensical and poorly played out, and if I see another human worshipping an elf, I'm going to vomit. Her relationship with Naksima and the Red Mountain people is sort of a direct response to every relationship between humans and elves that Wendy ever wrote, and her poorly researched glimpse into early modern humans that makes me want to scream.

Of all elves, Shen Shen speaks to me most of straightforward sense combined with impulsivity. You can see this even in FQ, where she gets inspired, and goes to make it happen without much of a second thought. To a certain extent, I wanted to follow that impulsivity, and see where it led.

So in the first part of the story, she's very survival oriented. Later, she's beginning to become contented with her life, but she gets this idea. So she goes ahead, and does it, and now she's in over her head and stuck in this situation that she actually put herself in.

Quote :
Speaking of Ekuar... will he and Rayek still develop the same connection?  Or maybe Rayek doesn't need a father-figure and friend in the same way now that he's reconnected to the Sun Folk.

To me, part of Rayek's part in the story is reconnecting, rebuilding, and repairing the relationships he has in canon, and learning how to build relationships. So, in essence, the relationship he has with Ekuar in canon is sort of superfluous here.

Quote :

The Rayek/Strongbow relationship is awesome.  They're so much alike, it's like they're destined to be best frenemies.  Very Happy

I always thought they'd get along pretty well under different circumstances.
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kathleen3.0

kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 22, 2015 4:12 am

@Startear wrote:
I haven't had time to finish today, but I must say that I fnd myself enjoying the interactions between Rayek and Strongbow. I have alwayd thought them as very similar. I also like the interactions between Shenshen and the humans.

Thanks for taking the time to comment. Yeah, I love to write them as vitriolic friends, they can be hilarious. And Naksima is one of my favourite OCs, so yay!
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Zadzi

Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 22, 2015 7:59 am


It's really wonderful, Kathleen. I love how intimate your interactions are between characters. As others have stated, Rayek/Strongbow is such a bad ass pairing as they are so similar in temperament. Surly curmudgeons, both hardcore traditionalists in some way, and yet one is a visionary tripped up by his inability to live in the present (since visionaries never really do).
I just love it.
As an aside, my all-time ideal couple/match was always Rayek with Strongbow and Moondshade Twisted Evil I know it ain't gonna happen, but I LOVE seeing those two interact because they seem to have so much to offer in the way of story. Add Moondshade to the mix and that would be like a mentor match made in some weird saturnine , deadpan heaven.

I also love how you've integrated Maleen into the story as a real character - that girl was dying to bloom, and you've done well! Really, all the others are integrated.

My personal curiosity has me asking, what did you give Dewshine the fate she got? I was never a huge fan. Why her? I'm really curious why you made that choice.

I adore all of it. I have a lot more to read and will hide out again until I am done.
I'm very fond of how the story isn't moving totally linearly and is instead interspersed with different moments and POVS....it's so, so refreshing. Over the past few years, I've found myself chaffing against linearity in writing in general, so this is very much up my alley. Between my own chapters that I write at night, reading your work is my pleasure, and I am so happy because you really breath voracious life into the elves, and round out their personalities beautifully. You also are seamless with the cultural stuff and I am so glad to not see any of that uncomfortable, weird unconscious white heroic worship shit going on in your tale. Sorry to be blunt, but it's just a relief to see a story really be mindful and beautiful and fleshed out, without being painfully self-conscious and self-serving.

You are a wonderful writer, thank you so much for sharing your gift.

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Zadzi

Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 22, 2015 8:06 am

As an aside, I never understood why the hell ShenShen was a midwife. Elf births mostly looked easy and like they were having some kind of orgasm as they delivered. Except for Eyes High, but that was early on and under extreme duress.
Did they just write ShenShen as a midwife for the sake of making it seem 'tribal' or something? It's the equivalent of being a notary in a town without a City Hall. Makes sense that the girl would branch the hell out, no?

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Lunakat

Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 22, 2015 9:23 am

It made sense to me that Shen Shen was a midwife back in The original quest-- because the Sun Village was depicted as having children in it, childbirth had not been established yet to be a lark in the park, and I figured she would have some of the healing instincts that Leetah had, if not the power. Most of that got retconned later in the story though.

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Miss Gillespie

Miss Gillespie

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 22, 2015 3:52 pm

@Zadzi wrote:

My personal curiosity has me asking, what did you give Dewshine the fate she got? I was never a huge fan. Why her? I'm really curious why you made that choice.

I'd really like to see more casual deaths in the "real EQ". The Wolfriders supposedly live such dangerous lives (short and sharp), but there never seem to happen any 'instant deaths'; no falling of a branch/ branch breaking off, getting kicked by resilient prey, getting fatally ill (during Leetah's absence)... Sometimes deathly accidents just happen, unless you wear plot armour
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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 22, 2015 4:57 pm

True, it would be good to see more deaths...but it makes it hard for the sake of story since there aren't many Wolfriders to begin with. A lot of the deaths have been shown in flashbacks from much earlier times, and it's a fair amount. But throughout the story, really, it's only been One-Eye that's died this whole time with the Wolfriders, which is kind of crazy. The other deaths within the story have been non-Wolfrider deaths.

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kathleen3.0

kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 22, 2015 5:07 pm

@Miss Gillespie wrote:
@Zadzi wrote:

My personal curiosity has me asking, what did you give Dewshine the fate she got? I was never a huge fan. Why her? I'm really curious why you made that choice.

I'd really like to see more casual deaths in the "real EQ". The Wolfriders supposedly live such dangerous lives (short and sharp), but there never seem to happen any 'instant deaths'; no falling of a branch/ branch breaking off, getting kicked by resilient prey, getting fatally ill (during Leetah's absence)... Sometimes deathly accidents just happen, unless you wear plot armour

There's a common writers adage that you should "kill your darlings". Most believe that refers to characters you like, but actually, it refers to passages of writing that are dear, wonderful, poetic, amazing, but add absolutely nothing to the plot.

I actually asked Lunakat, during the writing of the story, if I should kill Dewshine, because I spent a while on the fence about it. In the end I decided to do it, for a number of reasons.

1. That passage in tv tropes where a trooper wants Dewshine and Tyleet to strangle Scouter for... Nothing? Being himself? I don't know.

2. I found her Recognition with Tyldak disturbing, to say the least.

3. She not very interesting to me.

4. It avoids having to deal with the Windkin question.

5. We usually trade one character death for another, and I was sick of killing Treestump off.

6. Well, why not?
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manga

manga

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 22, 2015 5:52 pm

Well now you have no Teir, either.  Funny how one character death can echo.  Smile I wonder if there will be a Venka. I look forward to seeing where you go.

One thing I found very interesting, that I forgot to mention before, is the time skips. I think it showscases the immortal (or at least long-lived) natures of the elves very well.
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kathleen3.0

kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 22, 2015 7:44 pm

@Lunakat wrote:
It made sense to me that Shen Shen was a midwife back in The original quest-- because the Sun Village was depicted as having children in it, childbirth had not been established yet to be a lark in the park, and I figured she would have some of the healing instincts that Leetah had, if not the power. Most of that got retconned later in the story though.

A terrible retcon, because right up through KOTBW, it's clear that while elves have an easier time giving birth, it's not completely painless.
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Zadzi

Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 22, 2015 7:46 pm

I love the writing adage of kill your darlings, always have. Glad to see it well-executed here.

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Lunakat

Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 22, 2015 7:56 pm

I thought they only had an easier time because of healers.

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kathleen3.0

kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 22, 2015 8:44 pm

@Zadzi wrote:

It's really wonderful, Kathleen. I love how intimate your interactions are between characters. As others have stated, Rayek/Strongbow is such a bad ass pairing as they are so similar in temperament. Surly curmudgeons, both hardcore traditionalists in some way, and yet one is a visionary tripped up by his inability to live in the present (since visionaries never really do).

Honestly, I was mostly curious to see how they'd interact. They're not just similar in personality, they also have a similar set up in terms of having access to the old powers. in fact, Winnowill herself said that Strongbow had the mental powers of a High One, but governed by his animal side.

The idea was to have Rayek pushing Strongbow to develop his mental powers. I think, as an aside, that Strongbow's inability to take Rayek's crap probably helped Rayek, as well, albeit unintentionally.

@Zadzi wrote:

As an aside, my all-time ideal couple/match was always Rayek with Strongbow and Moondshade Twisted Evil I know it ain't gonna happen, but I LOVE seeing those two interact because they seem to have so much to offer in the way of story. Add Moondshade to the mix and that would be like a mentor match made in some weird saturnine , deadpan heaven.

I'd be lying if I said I hadn't thought about it, but tbh, I think that Rayek's goals and wants are very different from Strongbow and Moonshade's at this time, and they wouldn't integrate together well. Maybe another time, though.

Rayek might be the only one to match their intensity, lol.

@Zadzi wrote:
I also love how you've integrated Maleen into the story as a real character - that girl was dying to bloom, and you've done well! Really, all the others are integrated.

Maleen's lack of a story is kind of a tragic loss to us all. Honestly, I'm not even sure if she is a jackwolf rider. Besides, I loved the idea of her and Ruffel as lovemates who take on other friends as time comes and goes. Polyam Lesbians FTW!

@Zadzi wrote:
I adore all of it. I have a lot more to read and will hide out again until I am done.
I'm very fond of how the story isn't moving totally linearly and is instead interspersed with different moments and POVS....it's so, so refreshing. Over the past few years, I've found myself chaffing against linearity in writing in general, so this is very much up my alley. Between my own chapters that I write at night, reading your work is my pleasure, and I am so happy because you really breath voracious life into the elves, and round out their personalities beautifully. You also are seamless with the cultural stuff and I am so glad to not see any of that uncomfortable, weird unconscious white heroic worship shit going on in your tale. Sorry to be blunt, but it's just a relief to see a story really be mindful and beautiful and fleshed out, without being painfully self-conscious and self-serving.

You are a wonderful writer, thank you so much for sharing your gift.

Aw, thanks.

I'm going to be honest, though, most of it is a matter of getting timelines to match up, and also the fact that I hate flashbacks.
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Startear

Startear

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 22, 2015 10:02 pm

Okay, I finally finished reading!

What is most striking to me is Shenshen's interaction with the humans. Not only Shenkir, Nilma and Naksima, who are really great oc's, but with her interactions with Nonna, Olbar, and Bone Woman. Speaking of Bone Woman, you gave her a name! The way Shenshen and Naksima was happy about traders was really great too, the human tribes of EQ always seemed too isolated for me, and the breaking of this was great! aND AGAIN, BONE wOMAN HAS A NAME NOW! Not just a title.

Another thing, it also makes sense that Hoan G'tay Sho used to raid other villagers. It is hard to sustain a tribe when you send their best, most beautiful and their knowledge (which elders supply) away! So it makes sense that it is a recent thing to do, and that there is a decline.

I just love how you dealt with the humans here! And I wonder how Shenshen meeting the Gliders will go!

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kathleen3.0

kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyWed Sep 23, 2015 5:27 am

@Startear wrote:
Okay, I finally finished reading!

What is most striking to me is Shenshen's interaction with the humans. Not only Shenkir, Nilma and Naksima, who are really great oc's, but with her interactions with Nonna, Olbar, and Bone Woman. Speaking of Bone Woman, you gave her a name! The way Shenshen and Naksima was happy about traders was really great too, the human tribes of EQ always seemed too isolated for me, and the breaking of this was great! aND AGAIN, BONE wOMAN HAS A NAME NOW! Not just a title.

Another thing, it also makes sense that Hoan G'tay Sho used to raid other villagers. It is hard to sustain a tribe when you send their best, most beautiful and their knowledge (which elders supply) away! So it makes sense that it is a recent thing to do, and that there is a decline.

I just love how you dealt with the humans here! And I wonder how Shenshen meeting the Gliders will go!

Anyone who knows me knows I HATE the way WARP portrays the Indigenous American equivalents in their comics. From both their take on human evolution, and the implications of their opening page, where in a pale skinned person is about to be sacrificed at a pillar resembling a volcano by a group of half-naked people of colour, drumming, dancing, and chanting to Shuna's little adventure among Nunkah's people. They swing wildly from "misogynistic Stone Age dwellers" to "primitive worshippers of the oh-so-superior elves".

So part of the whole Naksima thing was to sort of touch on that. Like, Naksima and Shen Shen become friends because, without pretenses, or bargaining, Shen Shen openly decides to help Naksima. Naksima and Amrok decide to help Shen Shen and co. because they like her, and because they're able to, especially in opening a place in their home nation, which, like many First Nations communities at that apparent time, is a thriving community, with multiple people in multiple places working together.

That's a big thing, like, we know that ancient Americans were trading and travelling, and interacting with each other. From Florida to Northern Manitoba, there was a whole network going on. Empires were being built, some based on conquest, some on trade, some on mutual respect and the desire to live and work together. In other words, they were just like everyone else at that time period. In fact, they may have been doing much better than most other people.

Well, the Pinis had the anthropological work of the seventies to draw from, which was extremely focused on the idea that, somehow, First Nations societies in the Americas were more primitive than any other society at that time, and heavily Clovis focused, and literally refused to acknowledge Indigenous history.

Which makes sense in the seventies, but things start to get iffy the further you go, and it's 20-something, SATS is published and the racist charicatures of Nunkah and his entire village go unquestioned, so okay.

Back to Shen Shen and Naksima, that was mostly based around Nonna and her whole "The (white) spirits are so beautiful and perfect and I(an Indigenous woman of colour) am so far below them that I can't hope to abase myself enough" schtick. I hated it, and I wanted Shen Shen and Naksima to be actual friends, as any two women who met each other under their circumstances might be. And frankly, I think Naksima's private opinion that elves are freaky-looking is probably closer to a human reaction than anything else could be.

The traders, the news network, this makes sense for a populated area with different groups of people living near enough to actually exchange resources and ideas. It was also, I felt, a good way to introduce Adar, and Nonna, and the Bone Woman.

The Bone Woman, actually, is a particularly offensive stereotype of a shaman. So I decided, while I was considering how others might look at the Hoan G'Tay Sho, to consider how a shaman in a relatively stable society might see a young woman coming from a community where sending another human being to live(or not live) in a mountain with a bunch of spirits that no one ever sees(but who ride giant, predatory birds). I imagined it might be terrifying.

I'm going to be honest, I completely and totally pulled the whole "Hoan G'Tay Sho sacrificing people from other nations" out of my ear lobe, felt like it made sense in the context of a society that, whatever else you might say about them, practices human sacrifice, and ran with it, and it's not uncommon for societies who practice that kind of ritual to prefer to go after people who aren't part of the group. In fact, to this day, human sacrifice is still a part of many different judicial systems around the world, where it focuses on prisoners, the poor, and people of colour. I put a war putting a stop to it a couple of generations back purely to explain why the traders don't talk about it to Shen Shen. And it helped Explain Ulma's fears(I am going to be honest, I just thought that was her canon name).

Honestly, though, if you think about it, the whole time we see the HGTS in OQ, the implication is that they're the GOOD humans, in spite of the fact that they're happily turning over men, women, and children to the Gliders, and I had to really think about what that might look like to humans from outside the tribe. In fact, I had to think about what it looked like to me. It's only in SATBM, when they turn on the Wolfriders, that any kind of value judgement is made on them.
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kathleen3.0

kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyThu Sep 24, 2015 11:59 pm

@manga wrote:
Well now you have no Teir, either.  Funny how one character death can echo.  Smile

Do not underestimate my ability to ignore that particular butt yank of a heritage. I mean, Mender can smell that Gifa is the Djun's kid after just a few whiffs, but Scouter and Dewshine can't smell Windkin off Teir?
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manga

manga

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 25, 2015 5:52 pm

Excellent. I liked him much better as a member of a new tribe anyway.
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kathleen3.0

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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 26, 2015 6:21 am

@Lunakat wrote:
I thought they only had an easier time because of healers.

Between Kahvi and Rainsong, I think we can safely say they have an easier time in general, lol.
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PostSubject: Re: to cherish what remains    to cherish what remains  - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 26, 2015 6:23 am

@manga wrote:
Excellent.  I liked him much better as a member of a new tribe anyway.

I'm not going to say he's not connected to the Go Backs at all, but for real, the retconning he's undergone makes me wish they'd just made a new character.
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