/Apology/Solution

Embala wrote:

When fans who felt the need to utter criticism finally found FTH where they were not only allowed but welcomed to speak freely it was like bursting of a dam. Their voices were concentrated and overwhelming loud like flood wave. And other fans ducked away (like me) or their voices were not heard anymore (like Redhead).

This explains it perfectly, thank you Em. I honestly feel that’s all that happened here, and in no way did members mean to make anyone feel shy about voicing opposing views or comments. But I felt it needed to be addressed and all I was offering was a hopeful solution to prove beneficial for everyone as a whole, NOT to add to any further “division” between fan opinions and where, or how to voice them.

If I gave that impression to anyone here, I apologize. I just wanted a way for everyone to feel their every opinion and comment was comfortable to voice.


I just wanted to point out another thing. Just because a separate thread was made for FQ for just the positive comments and views does not mean that the same goes (or will in the future) for everything else, whether it’s EQ discussions or other non related discussions. I have always praised and praised and praised how we, as a big group from various countries and beliefs and what not could always come together with respect and open arms with each other.

I think we just ran into a little hic-up, which is human nature to happen from time to time! And now we’re working together to remedy it


So on that note, if everyone feels they want to keep positive AND negative views in ONE thread, by all means go for it! I simply put up the “positive” thread to be helpful, that was all.  

You rock, Kindredsoul. I've said it before and don't mind how often I say it again.

Thank you for clarifying what you meant by the word "fans", KindredSoul. I wasn't sure what you intended, and since you had begun by this forum and its members as "the FQ haters", I went with the broader definition.

+1 to Embala and Outliers' comments!

There are things I like about FQ, and things I don't like. I don't have the obsession with it that I did with the Original Quest, and i think there's a couple reasons for that. One, the Pinis captured lightning in a bottle with it -- it was the right comic at the right time. Another, I'm not the same person I was back then (no longer thirteen, for one .)

I play World of Warcraft, and regularly on their General forum people will compare the current game to when it released, and how much better everything was, how much enjoyment they got from discovering the game. Some response always points out that part of that enjoyment of discovery was the game was new to the original poster and others. I'm wondering if there's some similar nostalgia happening, comparing the two series and feelings about them. The comic is no longer "new" for us.

Since I pick up my copies at a shop that is kind of out of the way, I may come in late on some comic discussions, and skip others entirely. I haven't noticed the negativity, probably for that reason.

Regardless of the story content or character development, I think fans continue to read Elfquest because of its overall quality: good drawing and coloring, clear writing, and a quality printed product. If we're disappointed that Pike didn't recognize Winnowill while she was trapped in Rayek's body, or that Cutter doesn't look as much like an underground comix hippie as he did in 1978, we're still buying it. That, IMHO, is the most positive feedback of all.

I got into Elfquest pretty late in the game, sometime in the late 90s. To be perfectly honest, even though I fell in love with it... I always had gripes.
It has been pointed out that as a result of all the censoring, feelings which are less than fabulous are being voiced, and I completely agree. I think it's what happens when reactions are isolated for so long and not simply expressed naturally.
As someone who has spent a fair amount of time in workshops where critique was crucial, I was always taught to temper criticism with positive reinforcement. It was actually more like learning how to criticize constructively....I feel like ...well, this is appropriate only if the creator of the piece is around.
Does that sound terrible? I just love Elfquest in general but my main problem of it has consistently (way, way before Final Quest) been that it doesn't go deep enough. If you write about more provocative subjects, you will have a multitude of reactions, that is the bottom line.
I feel the criticism here is actually really quite intelligent, and articulate. Nobody really ever says Well that's dumb, without backing it up with why they feel that way. It's okay for people to dislike or love or criticize something as long as they back it up since it's in the middle of a discussion. And that's been consistently done here, which is why I adore this site. I don't need the Pinis breathing over my shoulder and telling me why it hurts their feelings. You give birth to something and put it out into the world, and people will have opinions about your baby. And yes, I do understand what that is like, and yes, it is hard. But it's just part of the process.
Some things about Elfquest have always bothered me. Some I have always loved. And some now are just ....annoying. I am grateful to share with likeminded people what they like and don't like. The quality of the discussion is important to me, it's most important. I feel this place is amazing for letting us all share how we feel, and I am incredibly grateful to have this space, so thank you!

Of course we cannot always agree, but we can always be civil about it. Let's agree to disagree!

This is quite an interesting and rich subject...

Outlier wrote:

You know, if we were all sitting around at a cafe or in someone's living room, we would have this feedback of body language that the conversation was getting uncomfortable and, even if not recognized by everyone, eventually most of the group would realize and steer the conversation back to more neutral ground. Online, there's no such feedback, so visitors who feel uncomfortable with the conversation just disappear, and the people who are left just reinforce each other, sometimes here into little snark-fests.

Very true. Even in real life, it's not always easy for all voices to make themselves heard and understand. I guess it's worse on the internet (i know I spend much more time thinking about what I want to share, and how to say it, and is it clear enough?)

I can easily see only the good in a book, film... and forget all the rest, and it used to irk me when people criticize too much, until I realized "too much" fells very different for everyone. And that if I was the one feeling oppressed, it was up to me to say it. One of my best friend is a huge criticizer (?), that helped. I stopped criticizing criticizers

KR Wordgazer wrote:

The thing is that when someone posts that the Final Quest is just a disaster, a train wreck, etc., there really isn't any way to discuss that.

It's the "all is bad/ all is good." I find it easier when I remember it's more about the speaker feelings than about the book. Sure, if you want to discuss, it's not inviting, feels like a closed door.

Zadzi wrote:

I feel the criticism here is actually really quite intelligent, and articulate. Nobody really ever says Well that's dumb, without backing it up with why they feel that way.

My feeling to.

My point too. Most criticisms posted here seemed pretty founded and legit to me. I haven't seen much "dissin" for the sake of it. Most people I hear complain seem dismayed about it. I am anyway; I really wish I had more positive things to say. I don't need negativity, no-one does. But we can't just sit pretty and pretend all is well in the world of Elfquest.

That's why thank goodness for fan fic

Elwing wrote:

My point too. Most criticisms posted here seemed pretty founded and legit to me. I haven't seen much "dissin" for the sake of it. Most people I hear complain seem dismayed about it. I am anyway; I really wish I had more positive things to say. I don't need negativity, no-one does. But we can't just sit pretty and pretend all is well in the world of Elfquest.

Well, I admit my own guilt that I became overly sarcastic in my rants about the book in the FQ11 thread.

So I am waiting for the next issue, to try and be more reflective and try to post pros and cons about the issue, rather than just the cons (which comes easily when I am super passionate and dismayed by what I see).

I do think that, while some of the criticism was valid, a lot of it was over the top. One example that sticks out for me.... someone (i don't remember who) was criticizing an issue of Final Quest and called it "obscene". I remember thinking-- really? I mean, sure there have been a lot of pastels-- but the story and art are not at the level of obscene.

From my pov-- we had collectively tripped over the border of "legitimate criticism" and were spiraling into overly negative free-fall.

I'm glad to be putting the breaks on that! I don't think we have to be artificially positive-- but I do think it's good to step back and balance our perspectives.

Was that me talking about obscene mediocrity? I can be kind of dramatic with my expressions at times and my feelings tend to be very love/hate oriented about stuff that effects me for better or worse.
It can be off putting or overwhelming, so I apologize.

Zadzi wrote:

Was that me talking about obscene mediocrity? I can be kind of dramatic with my expressions at times and my feelings tend to be very love/hate oriented about stuff that effects me for better or worse.
It can be off putting or overwhelming, so I apologize.

Heh - You're not alone. Like I said, I was becoming overly sarcastic in the FQ11 thread after the Timmain/Cutter reveal. And seeing others feeling negative, only encourage and increased my sense of sarcasm, and I could tell I was being over the top (but because many felt mutually upset, it was easy to just keep doing it). Sort of the blood in the water with shark mentality - once it bleeds, there's a frenzy. So I don't think the purpose is to point out who did what - but that we were all guilty - and that perhaps some of us said something that someone else took offense to, and made others uncomfortable sharing their views, because they had positive feedback and the entire thread was pretty negative. (Not all of it, but a vast majority was, and it seemed to spiral further as the thread continued, making it increasingly more uncomfortable for those who had something positive to say, to jump in, without the fear of being attacked by the blood frenzied sharks!)

I gotta ask, and I hope this won't be taken as hostile again... was anyone actually feeling like they would get attacked for sharing a positive opinion?

@Zadzi-- I have absolutely no idea! I don't remember at all who it was-- just the comment itself.

@Sungirl-- Yeah, I think a couple of people were worried about that. That's why Kindred posted this apology and started the "love of Final Quest" thread.

I did read why Kindred started these threads, I just wonder what we negative nancies did to make people think we would actually attack them rather than just disagreeing with them. I haven't seen anybody posting "keep that positivity to yourself!"

edit: you know what, ignore me, I was being flippant and confrontational there. I got too defensive. Just, all these terms being thrown around further up the page such as "guilty" and "attack" and "negative free-fall" and "blood frenzied sharks" seem, like, way too strong to me.

I didn't feel I was being attacked per se, just like my attempts at talking positively about FQ was being ignored/twisted to people's negative opinions.

sun girl wrote:

Just, all these terms being thrown around further up the page such as "guilty" and "attack" and "negative free-fall" and "blood frenzied sharks" seem, like, way too strong to me.

Well since I mentioned the "blood frenzied shark attacks" - figured I would explain. If you look at the initial thread, it's a pretty normal thread. Some positive comments, some negative comments. But by page 7 or so, it was pretty much all negative comments. You had, for example:

Redhead Ember wrote:

I didn't feel I was being attacked per se, just like my attempts at talking positively about FQ was being ignored/twisted to people's negative opinions.

I was probably one of those people. Because as the thread progressed I grew more cynical of the issue; it was, admittedly easier for me, because I saw I was standing in a common area where others were not pleased with the issue (or the run thus far). So when someone said something like, "I wonder if the old human by the lake will come into play" (or something like that), I sarcastically replied, "Calling it now, the old man by the lake was Timmain shape shifted!"

Naturally, I don't actually think that. I was just being a smart ass because of the whole reveal at the end of FQ #11, which didn't shock me, so much as annoy me to Hades and back. And that's just one example. I became increasingly sarcastic in the thread, because someone said they found my comments funny. While, sure the intention is to be "funny" - but that funny was lined with a lot of sarcasm and frustration towards the comic. So while you had people like Redhead Ember above, trying to post positive things, I do not doubt for a moment, I was one of those people, because I was so spun by that point of the thread, that took what she attempted to be a positive response, and replied with an ugly, sarcastic response, making light/jest of her attempts to share what some things she actually enjoyed.

And when you have people spinning elements you find good in something, and you can't have a normal conversation, without someone being a sarcastic arse about your positive comments; it does, indeed, hamper the idea of sharing the things you enjoyed.

I'm swimming against the crowd here, but I might as well throw down, esp. with ish 12 coming out soon...

I just hope the people who DO have negative opinions to share won't be feeling silenced. I know there is a separate "love of Final Quest" but with everyone promising to watch their tone and be more accepting in the main thread, I must second the question asked earlier - do we need a "Shark tank" thread where people can unabashedly frenzy-feed to our heart's content?

OFF TOPIC ALERT!


I love all you guys, btw. I think you are all awesome and I am grateful to know you all. Just had to get that out there.

CARRY ON AS YOU WERE

wingthing wrote:

I'm swimming against the crowd here, but I might as well throw down, esp. with ish 12 coming out soon...

I just hope the people who DO have negative opinions to share won't be feeling silenced. I know there is a separate "love of Final Quest" but with everyone promising to watch their tone and be more accepting in the main thread, I must second the question asked earlier - do we need a "Shark tank" thread where people can unabashedly frenzy-feed to our heart's content?

Well, I - personally - plan on trying to review both what I liked and disliked about the book. There's typically something I like about it - but I have, admittedly, focused on the negative. I am going to strive to share both good and bad about the book, and try to tone down my sarcastic bitterness.

(I have to admit, I did chuckle at the "Shark Tank" thread...)

Nibblet wrote:

OFF TOPIC ALERT!
I love all you guys, btw. I think you are all awesome and I am grateful to know you all. Just had to get that out there.
CARRY ON AS YOU WERE

Ditto.

(Total Ghost reference right there!)

wingthing wrote:

I just hope the people who DO have negative opinions to share won't be feeling silenced.

So hope I. I said it elsewhere and still day it out loud. Father Tree Holt is a good place because it is allowed and welcome to utter criticism! Despite I was overwhelmed and swept away myself by the concentrated critiques I know how much such a place was - and is! necessary for fans that are not just happy-go-lucky with the FQ. I needed it myself to some extend ... needed it so much to tell my mind without fear of admins who bring me back in line instantly. I need to tell "I like the FQ ... like it despite my own critique ... love it still" without feeling the need to explain myself.

Quote :

- do we need a "Shark tank" thread where people can unabashedly frenzy-feed to our heart's content?

Please ... please no. We don't need more seperation. We need to find a way to cooperate and interact again - not cells for each taste. Ive understood the "Love for EQ! thread as a reminder. A signal for those fans who got silent and backed out of the discussion - a signal that FTH is for this love as well. An invitation to encourage them ... not a start to divide the fans apart.

Opposing views and controversal discussions were always the spice in the buffet on the Original Scroll. I was stunned by the fact that heated discussion and being a tight knit did not exclude one another - and I've adored the people for it. For all the passion and love for EQ and the love and care for each other.
When things got out of balance it was not only the fault of the events on the Scroll of Colors. And it was not caused solely by the "snarky" voices ... we who stopped raising loving voices have our share in it as well.

It's the mix that makes a great holt and a truely good place. The interaction and mutual inspiration. I so wish we'll find a balance again and that I'll add to it better than before.

You are unbeatable, Nibblet!

Four lines to express to the best what I tried poorly in as many paragraphs.

I don't think anyone is saying anywhere that we can't share negative things about the books. I think they're just asking to be a little more gentle and observant of others feelings. Which, as a tribe of people who may be passionate about the book, we're also human and care about whether or not we're making others feel unwanted.

I think this site, this forum, again, is awesome, and I feel the need to keep saying that.
Everyone I've come across here who speaks/writes does so in an intelligent way and whether it's debate or poking fun or whatever, it's felt pretty inviting so far.
I think maybe it would be good to include whatever good things we do like in EQ when we see it. My main concern is authenticity above all else...
I do wonder sometimes if maybe some of what's been going on lately has some bearing at all on how things used to be in the last forum, in several people not feeling they could speak their mind honestly for a while, and now that they get to, it's like such relief or something. I have no idea, I was barely on the old forum for more than like 5 mins before all that crap went down and all the feelings were hurt and then the forum itself just disappeared.
It's true for me that the quality of the FQ has gone downhill in terms of story and it's been frustrating, and even though I try to say positive things, I feel like another part of me wants a bigger pay off or something, if that makes sense. Like I want to GUSH about EQ like I used to...and I always had issues with it, things I was annoyed by, but I also was able to overlook them because I loved the story.

In general I think it's hard to be positive about something you used to feel passionately about when you feel the quality of it has somehow gone down. I actually think those who have good things to say can stand to be MORE vocal about it to remind us of how much we once really, really enjoyed EQ.