Final Quest #14

Lunakat wrote:

I think it made sense. He gave human beings weapons of mass destruction and she wanted him to understand how bad that was. He still didn't get it and just worried about whether she liked him still or not. She was like 'This thing you created is going to destroy our world!' And he responded with 'She doesn't like me anymore!'

That's not really Venka's bad. I mean-- how cool and calm does she need to be?

I hear that, and I agree to some extent.  Maybe the elves, being naturally superior and more stable than humans, have a poor understanding of mental illness.  Maybe they really can't understand it.  Two-Edge is not logical. He's a victim of prolonged and extreme child abuse.  He's like a kid who spent the first 15 years of his life locked in a closet, only taken out to witness extreme violence or to have it perpetrated against him.  It's a miracle that he can function at all.  Venka knows that sending is frightening and triggering for him, probably because it was one of the means his own mother used to torture him.  This is why I fling my hands in the air when she refers to him being "a slave to his own childish urges," or when she mentally blasts him and threatens him with the reemergence of his dreaded mother.  That must be absolutely terrifying for him.  He's done a lot of bad, he's made terrible decisions, but he's just not all there.  

The elves have never really sympathized with him or understood him.  They're just too whole to empathize with how broken he is.  That's a failure of compassionate imagination on their part, IMO.  And Venka has been proving throughout FQ that she either can't or won't understand the degree of his trauma.  I'm not saying she has to provide for his needs.  That's up to her and it's almost too much to ask of any individual.  But the fact remains that she is his first and only secure attachment, so when she lashes out, she does maximal damage, especially when she decided to exploit his trigger (sending).

[Edited to add: On top of all this, and what makes it even worse, is that the confrontation happens down in the ruins of Blue Mountain...you know, the site of all the childhood torture. He's probably even more of a mental wreck just being there. Ahdri says that he "loathes" it--that's got to be the understatement of the millennium, surely. "Oh you know, Two-Edge doesn't like it down there. It's where he saw his mom burn his dad alive or whatever."]

Wisp I agree with you, about Two-Edge and Venka.

I like the art of Cutter in the woods, but the blurr on the big Skywise and Leetah faces is very ugly and I am still recovering from the shock of seeing the color on Venka's outfit.
Somehow, I imagine Cutter singing his rhymed rambling in a Disney like manner.
I agree that Filchers death is very well done. Very touching. I like the turn the story has taken now - dealing with death in this way.

I think it's fair to say that Venka just cannot relate to that. She's purely intellectual -- that's her character. She's not perfect. We've never seen her be deeply empathetic. She just tries to reason things out-- even the feelings of other people. I think she has correctly analyzed Two edge-- but that doesn't mean she knows how to be his shrink. It's apparently just not in her.

On a more positive note, I'me really happy to see new art of the old chiefs. (I mean she could have copy pasted them from OQ 13)
Also, Wisp is spot on.

Wow, Wisp, you really nailed it with Venka-TwoEdge thing. It's true, she's got no responsibility to being his 'shrink', Lunakat - but it's also true that any kind of dig coming from her is going to rock him to his core and make the bottom trap door open more because he's attached himself to her.

The elves really are more 'collectively empathic' versus individually. It's like detached kindness. If someone is bothered by something, on any level, they're expected to recover and get on with their lives...no matter how shattered that individual might be (Rayek, Strongbow, Two Edge, even Aroree).

Sometimes I think the elves are just really, really naive, or I should say idealistic.

Shadowpath wrote:

On a more positive note, I'me really happy to see new art of the old chiefs. (I mean she could have copy pasted them from OQ 13)

Yes, that was really nice, and it's interesting that the conehead-form shows up in that sequence too. That's two appearances of coneheads in this issue. It's been a long time since we saw the elves' original form, no? What with Moonshade's elongated appearance on the cover of the next issue, I wonder if the physical transformation of the palace elves will accelerate and whether we'll see some of them transition into the old form.

Zadzi wrote:

The elves really are more 'collectively empathic' versus individually. It's like detached kindness. If someone is bothered by something, on any level, they're expected to recover and get on with their lives...no matter how shattered that individual might be (Rayek, Strongbow, Two Edge, even Aroree).

I never generalized it in exactly these terms, but I think this is right. It's very interesting. It's not actually something I like very much about the elves, or at least not something I can identify with readily. I value empathy and compassion above many other qualities. I'm not sure whether that makes me or them more naive. There is some wisdom in letting everyone work out their own issues in their own time.

Everyone except Cutter, of course. He gets to have group therapy with his heart circle.

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Hmmm, I'm not from the 'go for immortal elves' camp, but this talk about wolfblood was really annoying. As if the special thing about Moonshade (for Strongbow) was her Wolf blood scent..

I can take or leave the Strongbow/Moonshade drama at this point, but there was something almost...bittersweet about the wolf scent discussion, especially as it related to Yun. Her scent is a reminder that Skywise has left his people, and his wolfblood, behind. Same with Moonshade. And like (I think) Lunakat noted, the fact that there are so few individuals left at the holt really drives home that the wolfriders are a vanishing breed. Ember can say that she'll run things like Bearclaw, but she really can't. The world has changed all around them, they've changed, and nothing will turn back the clock. Watching the wolfriders wind-down as a culture is the saddest thing in FQ for me, personally. It's like watching my own childhood end.

Elves not understanding mental illness is an unfortunate reflection of reality. Humans know more about the depths of space than they do about how to treat mental illnesses.

Speaking as someone who's been suicidally depressed since twelve, that's very disheartening.

Leetah once worked on Two-Edge. She said "A moment more, and the madness would have left him." But would Two-Edge have truly been cured of the pain Winnowill caused him if the memories of his suffering remained?

Edit: Coming back to say that Kathleen's sentiment about watching the Wolfriders fade away as a people, a culture, is indeed the worst part about this. They're going to go extinct. It's inevitable. At best, by the time the Rebels and Jink hit the scene, only four or so will be left. And they will be the ones who gave up their wolf blood or had it involuntarily removed.

I don't think Venka represents all elves-- just herself.

I didn't say that. I would say it in a way grouchier manner and probably make some caustic comments that would leave a few hurt feelings behind. That was Wisp.

I always got the feeling that Winnowill did physical brain damage as well as mental damage. So if Leetah had been able to maintain her trance, she would have healed the physical damage. The mental damage would have been way easier to deal with if the brain damage was removed. We tend to forget that mental illness happens in the brain, which is a physical organ.

Good points, Kathleen!

Does anyone else think Aroree's looked weird during most of Final Quest? Like, not like the old Aroree?
I guess the same can be said for some of the other characters too, but for some reason Aroree stands out the most to me.

She looks very fragile and sad. In 14, she kinda reminds me of Gibra.

She always had the sad eyes but she's somehow gotten more fragile or something. In Shards she was less fragile, looked substantial. I want to say she looks more adolescent somehow, while before she looked more...well, womanly.

Aroree's character design has changed so much. I mean, they say she changed after Voll died, but a sad expression doesn't completely change your face shape. Then, in Shards, she started to look substantial and cheerful, but as soon as Wendy took back over, she went back a wisp with huge, upside down v shaped eyes.

If you go back and look at SaBM and KotBW, even as late as Dreamtime, Wendy drew Aroree with a womanly figure.  She's tall and willowy, but she had muscular thighs, ample hips relative to her wasp waist, small but noticeable breasts, and strong shoulders.  All those features were accentuated in Shards, and I thought she looked great.  

Wendy's aesthetic since at least Masque of the Red Death is for tall, slender builds in both male and female characters.  Characters who were slender now look achingly thin and "stringy".  This extends to the faces as well as bodies.  Characters like Strongbow and Nightfall started looking really gaunt, and now it looks like voluptuous Moonshade will get the tall-and-thin treatment.  

I agree, Zadzi, Aroree does look adolescent and insecure, especially with the knock-knee posture and hunched shoulders.  Also, since she stopped wearing "turtleneck" outfits, her neck looks really long.  The bobble-head effect probably contributes to her looking a bit immature.

I had no idea about the Masque stuff, thanks for illuminating that, Wisp. I guess it would make sense that the aesthetic would carry over, for better or worse.

When I look at Aroree, I see one of my little sisters from back in her really awkward high school days, when she was reedy but it was really more about the way she carried herself which stood out. Aroree got the same thing going on and it makes no sense, because she's supposed to be past all that mental and emotional damage that was done to her. She doesn't look it though.

Nightfall is the other one, and while she removed her hair band or whatever, Nightfall's been up and down for some time. First she sported some adorable little baby fat or something, I don't know, she was more curvy...then she was more muscular. Ok cool. But she looks so bloody ANGULAR these days and her expression is so...I think Lunakat pegged it when she said Blue Steel. It's just so weird. She showed a little expression for Strongbow the last issue but for the most part she seems really like she just had a facelift and a bunch of botox or something.  I miss the softness and intensity of her expressions, she used to have so many....When Cutter almost died back at the Frozen Mountains and Leetah and Rayek were healing him...Nightfall was freaking out! She was so expressive! Such emotion! And now she's all steely. Maybe it's 'maturity' or whatever, but I miss her emoting.

Anyway, I am really waxing nostalgic here. It's not realistic to expect the same treatment, really. I just get sad about it sometimes.

Just got done reading, still need to assimilate. Initial thoughts-I think the plant people are other High Ones who dealt with the planet in their own way. Some of the prose stories dealt with how hard it was far the High Ones to kill, SO it makes sense they would give up their bodies and become scavengers. The scene where they find Cutter seems very similar to the preservers when they find Skywise. "Can't make wrap stuff.IS not all still-quiet.'"

And whoever mentioned it feels like saying goodbye to a culture, I didn't realize that's what it was, but that's exactly how it feels. Passing around the old dream berries, remembering the good old days. I also feel I'm watching my childhood die.

EDIT: OK, read it again. Now I'm thinking that we're setting up a conflict between two groups of High Ones. On the one side we'll have Timmain, who, as the new group says, cannot learn how to change. Even after all this time, all she can focus on is getting back to where she came from. She wants the elves to revert back to thier former configuration and leave the planet.

I think the new group are also High Ones who have completely changed to become part of the world. They have no interest in going back, no interest in thier former lives.

I wonder, will Cutter join with them as a way to resist Timmain? Will this be the "be careful what you wished for" as he has to rebel against Timmain?

That's an interesting idea. Maybe these new elves will offer the ones who would like to stay an alternative way to exist on the planet. Shen Shen has already come up with her own approach-- that could work for some. For others, maybe the plant geared and self shaping elves (Redlance, Ohler, Leetah, etc.) there might be other options.

Aroree looks weird because her proportions have changed. Her head is bigger-- which makes her childlike.

Outlier wrote:

Just got done reading, still need to assimilate. Initial thoughts-I think the plant people are other High Ones who dealt with the planet in their own way. Some of the prose stories dealt with how hard it was far the High Ones to kill, SO it makes sense they would give up their bodies and become scavengers. The scene where they find Cutter seems very similar to the preservers when they find Skywise. "Can't make wrap stuff.IS not all still-quiet.'"

Whoa. I never even thought of that, but it makes a lot of sense. I'm not sure about them being high ones but I don't have anything against them being high ones either. But you're also right in the way they communicate...it's almost like the antithesis of the preservers while still being like them in that weird hive-ish communication.
Preservers were like, if it's dead we can't do anything with it, while these are all, it's alive, we can't eat it/consume it/whatever.
So I guess they won't exactly be taking any efforts in 'healing' Cutter. What if the others show up and the new elves shift back into their passive tree / whatever state and Cutter will look crazy for talking about them ("I heard them !" etc.). Rambling, etc. And maybe only Redlance will 'get it'....

Yeah- I think the Preservers were out to wrap up sleeping creatures because Winnowil told them to. But they didn't want to wrap up Skywise because he was injured. They were differentiating between something asleep and something unconscious or dying/dead. Whereas these elves are scavenging dead 'shapes'-- they are waiting for Cutter to die (or go 'all still') so they can eat him.

Like this:

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/mushroom-death-suit_n_5148802.html

Man, I come from a green funeral culture. That mushroom stuff is awesome but also so wtf..I want it. But I hate saying I want to go to a funeral like that because it sounds awful

You know... re-reading Venka's obscenely over-the-top "scolding" of Two-Edge (yes, let's essentially mind-rape him to show him the error of his ways... sigh)... I think Rayek's got the right idea. Kill all Djunsmen. Sink them and their functioning guns to the bottom of the sea. They're the only ones that have the guns, right? I doubt Dying Angrif gave out the blueprints to anyone who asked - and being the psycho he was, he probably had all the smiths chained up on the boat or else just murdered so THEY couldn't pass on the secrets.

So wipe them all out and this great blood feud Venka fears will never come to pass.

Venka did not mind rape Two Edge. She just told him what was up.