Final Quest #17

Kindredsoul wrote:

Zadzi wrote:

...and then she comes out fainting...

*coughcough*shefakedit*coughcough*

You thought so too???

No wait, hold the fuck on. Somebody likely saw him running away from the direction of the Scroll Room. We and the elves that live in the Palace see him running, screaming his head off and nearly slicking a Sun Lady's head off.

They really don't think it's weird Cutter loses his mind and Timmain suddenly getting fainting spells at the same time.
...You know, thinking that over, and putting it up like that, I'd come to the conclusion they had Recognized.
Urgh, no no no, bad me.

Cutter's reaction was the exact opposite of Recognition.
We need a word that means the opposite of recognition
Rejected?
This is my Rejected...oh, it's nice to meet you.

Rejection?

Right. That would make sense-- from an outsider's point of view. But also-- Leetah did examine Cutter a little, so she would know if he recognized.

We know that the reason she is fainting is that he just extricated himself from her, forcibly. It's probably similar to recognition- when one of the parties dies or something. Of maybe closer to what Ember did with Teir.

I like the Ember/Teir comparison. Minus Teir's hysterics, of course lol

Yeah, Leetah would've sensed if it was recognition.

The ember Teir thing is probably there to prep us for the Timmain cutter thing

How so, Lunakat? I could see somewhat in the past, but going forward too?

I mean-- it was introduced earlier in the story to demonstrate the effects of separating two linked people

Or it's a coincidence

Oh, I see. Yeah, makes sense. It might that it was thrown in as foreshadowing but I'm not sure at all.

I keep getting a feeling that paradigm shift in the concept or function Recognition is a main theme in the final quest. We have Strongbow and Moonshade, the typical joined-at-the-hip couple, keepers of the way, now growing apart. We have Ember denying Recognition and the healers helping her. And although Recognition has been presented as something undeniable, we have Timmain pointing out that there will be no children with Skywise unless he chooses, and her stating "what I want to do, I do!" Kind of pointing out that she is not controlled by some higher power.

It kind of fits with the major theme of choice in EQ. They are gaining the choice about thier appearance and their reproduction.

i guess the elves are evolving-- and the Wolfriders are of the past

Outlier wrote:

It kind of fits with the major theme of choice in EQ. They are gaining the choice about thier appearance and their reproduction.

I would be interested in seeing that but only if it included the corollary - I.e. some (non-healer) elves gaining and exercising the ability to choose parenthood. It doesn't have to be main characters but just as some people might choose not to have children, there will be those who find it rewarding and would want more.

Well, Timmain saying it's Skywise's choice kind of fits that. She's saying they can have a child, not because they have to for Recognition - that Recognition already being satisfied in a way with Cutter - but because they want to.

Lunakat wrote:

i guess the elves are evolving-- and the Wolfriders are of the past

Why single out the Wolfriders? The Sun-folk and Gliders relied on Recognition as well. By that argument the Go-Backs are the most evolved tribe. (And they could be.)

And just thinking now of Newstar and Ohler. You'd think that Lutei being a spirit in the palace would have the inside scoop of any Recognition plans for her, but he leads her to Ohler, and there doesn't seem to be any Recognition yet. So maybe Recognition is getting passe.

The Gliders and Sun Folk have evolved their lifestyles to be compatible with the palace and will be able to leave with it when it goes. The Wolfriders have not.

I always had the notion the wolfriders were evolved to survive and thrive on Abode. And that's it.

Outlier wrote:

Well, Timmain saying it's Skywise's choice kind of fits that. She's saying they can have a child, not because they have to for Recognition - that Recognition already being satisfied in a way with Cutter - but because they want to.

Except it seems clear that the male elves were always exempt from the "Recognition is necessary for reproduction" thing. Both Skywise and Rayek come from tribes that are dependent on Recognition and yet both have sired children outside of it.

I never thought their siring children was not so much because *males* are exempt from Recognition-required-reproduction, but because *Go-Back females* are exempt!

I think it's an interesting theory that the function or dynamic of Recognition is changing. I actually really like that. Not sure if I like the choice part, which I know sounds weird. I like the primal part of recognition. How it's all...I dunno. Crazy vulcan side being let loose. I'm romanticizing it, I realize . But I like the impossibility of it happening at times, and how random it can be.

Who knows, maybe that's one last piece of the puzzle that Timmain means in terms of choice. While humans 'breed like fleas', they are shown as simply breeding, or choosing to breed, and it's a fact of life, not just some random spiritual lottery. It's true, in some ways Go_backs are more evolved in that way, but I also found them a lot more like humans. Is this like some missing link of how to truly connect to WoTM? I don't know.

As an aside, I though Timmain said that a child will be born should Skywise wishes it or something like that. But if he recognized Cutter, is there a possibility to where he wonders to himself with a thought in his head about it? Like the way he thought something and confided it to Cutter, and TImmain picked it up? Does Skywise then have 'more guts' when he talks to Cutter instead of Timmain, because Timmain is just too much of a goddess or something?

wingthing wrote:

I never thought their siring children was not so much because *males* are exempt from Recognition-required-reproduction, but because *Go-Back females* are exempt!

That's kind of the same point, actually. The Go-back females couldn't have gotten pregnant by them if it took Recognition for the guys to be fertile. Yet we have Venka and Yun, and the latter was born of a one-night stand. It seems clear that Recognition controls if and when an elf female ovulates but the males aren't shooting blanks while they wait.

Well... that's just a biological mammalian basic though, isn't it? Males are always fertile and females are fertile during the window of ovulation. It's just that it seems to take Recognition for (non-Go-Back) elf females to ovulate.

Right. And I guess Timmain can just control it all together. Which makes sense, I guess, since she can shape and reshape her body.

manga wrote:

It seems clear that Recognition controls if and when an elf female ovulates but the males aren't shooting blanks while they wait.

That's the way I think it would work, too. But I always wonder about Mender's comment about humans wanting every time to be like Recognition.

It seems like so much of the final quest seems to center around Recognition, but I wonder why?

Seems like we're set up for the fourth and final story being the separation of elves to space and Abode and I am starting to accept that the only reason for the Cutter-Timmain deal is for Cutter to manage being both places.

Preview for #16 is up, guys - I posted it in the other thread

Sweet