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 Final Quest #23

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Kojiyumi
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ErinC1978

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptyFri Dec 29, 2017 3:52 am

IMO, Wendy absolutely is (was?) a master artist, but it's only occasionally on display in FQ. :-/ Whether she's cutting corners due to an inability to keep up with the time constraints of publication, or not giving a crap anymore, or a Chitter-esque attitude of "hey, good enough," or something else entirely, I have no idea.

Could her tastes really have shifted that much? That's hard to imagine.

A lot of panels and even a few entire pages are lovely. A lot make me wince. And then there are largely awesome, dynamic panels like Clearbrook throwing knives at the top of pg. 14 that are sort of ruined by the copypaste knives that literally don't even look like they should be sticking in the person's body, ugh.

For me, the Photoshop shortcuts are the worst eyesores. Honestly, I'd prefer even the occasional terrible, slapdash drawing like the middle panels of Strongbow on pg. 16 (even beyond whatever's going on with that bow, what the heck is wrong with his face?) to seeing someone's incredibly detailed head reused on a much sketchier drawing of their body for the umpteenth time. And why bother actually doing a new drawing of Kimo's face when his throat gets slit, it's not like that's an important moment or anything.

Sorry, I'm just kind of depressed. I found the previous issue legitimately moving and was hoping for a rip-roaring finale, but my expectations have been well and truly managed. Maybe I'll like it better on reread if I try to ignore the copypaste and song lyrics.
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ErinC1978

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptyFri Dec 29, 2017 4:11 am

Just... I mean, how can the same artist who draws marvelous panels like the Go-Backs in full armor (which gives me chills) or the trolls getting blown up or Kimo snatched up by the whip or Strongbow firing the gun or the pg. 23 battle scene (minus a couple of awkward pasted bits) let ANYTHING on pg. 27 out the door?
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Stargazer

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptyFri Dec 29, 2017 4:57 am

The copy and paste artwork really jarred me this issue. Teir is the worst offender, it looks like the same image used again and again and it’s often glaringly out of place. Yes, some of the art is definitely below par - Strongbows face on page 16, and that awkwardly posed crowd scene with the Wolfriders on page 21...I actually commented to my daughter that that one looked like fan art (with c&p Teir again) and numerous others. And yet there are some lovely scenes too. I particularly liked Two Edge’s face when Ahdri called him lovemate. Overall though, I get a sense that Wendy is rushing to get to the end now .
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ErinC1978

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptyFri Dec 29, 2017 5:36 am

Yes, I am so sick of seeing that one drawing of Teir's head. By itself it's a nice representation of him, polished and cover-ready -- and then it's dumped into images with completely different coloring/shading styles and line weights where it doesn't mesh with anything else.

Another unfortunate example -- Ahdri's many-times reused head smack dab in the middle of pg. 13. Too bad, because it's otherwise a terrific panel.
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Outlier

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptyFri Dec 29, 2017 10:45 am

OK, forgive me if I'm just echoing a lot of what others have already said...

The lack of continuity in this series drives me crazy. Every time I read a new issue I feel like I've just been dropped smack-dab into a completely different story. I always spend the first couple of pages going "What?" and feeling like I should go back and re-read previous issues, but a) I just can't bring myself to do it, I just don't care enough, and b) I think of all the other situations where things have been brought in with no explanation and kind of the feeling of "you should just know this, it's important because we are telling you it is."

To put it in Pini terms, maybe each episode is another colored thread, and it may or may not have something to do with what we've seen before or the teasers, which are a completely different story anyway.

And what a long way we've come. From "No elf must die" and "there can never be a good enough reason for [war] again" and "she's a wolfrider, free to do what she wants." Apparently now it's fine to use Go-backs as a way to use up the humans's artillery, and they are happy to do it.

They sent Leetah to her room.

And apparently after millenia of hiding and avoiding the humans, they are now fine with bringing them right into thier home. What, did they have a little writing desk set up where the Djun and Cutter where going to hash out the terms of elf-human interactions? Were the setting up a room for the press core? What happened to "Go! And don't come back"

It makes me think of the old Monty Python sketch about how to not be seen. "Will the elves please stand up so we can see them" BOOM!

And why is Ember there? Wasn't the whole point of establishing another tribe somewhere far away so that some of them would survive?

But I know it's all been just a set-up to get us to this point so we can have a whole new set of inconsistancies when Cutter calls back the palace, making this whole drawn-out drama of who is going in the palace and who is staying and the importance of free-will moot as Cutter gathers them all up and takes them away from this horrible planet.

For good measure he will probably use the palace for some kind of vengeful act, even though it can only be used for love, because..hey...this is all about breaking all the rules, right?

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Wisp

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptyFri Dec 29, 2017 5:11 pm

Ditto to everything you said, ErinC1978.  Some of the art is so good, but it's mingled with such lazy crud.  Those Strongbow panels are terrible. His jaw is in the wrong place and the whole pose is so unnatural.  It doesn't help that "They sent Leetah to her room" as Outlier mentioned.  It's....offensive?  And the way she's drawn going into the Father Tree with her sad limp arm hanging by her side...it makes her look so spineless.  

Aside: this is one year into her pregnancy.  How is she not showing at all?  I'd actually be really curious to see an elf mid-pregnancy.  We've seen heavily pregnant elves before, but rarely at a stage where they're showing but not enormous.  

I hate that the Wolfriders used the Go-Backs as cannon fodder.  I hate that the Go-Backs were gung ho to do it. (I liked seeing Pike farewell his son in the background, however). I even dislike how that one Troll died saying, essentially, "Don't worry about me, I'm just dying over here. Got to save Wolfriders first."  And why did Dart have to convince Mender to chill out and save Treestump?   They're out of the heat of battle and a tribemate is literally dying in front of him.  What a crappy healer and, you know, person.  

I hate how Kimo died so predictably.  I mean, why was he trying to reason with the big bad again?  And where the heck's Newstar?  I thought she stayed on WoTM with Ohler.  Her son just got killed, thought she might turn up.  I think Wendy just doesn't really care for fans' attachment to Kimo as a potential romantic partner for Dart and wanted him definitively out of the way.  

I haven't really loved Shuna as a character in a long time, but the art of her in this issue was really good and emotive I felt--more so than Wendy has managed with a human character in a long time.  

As for the "final twist"...saw it coming a mile away, and the Wolfriders should have too.  I cannot suspend my disbelief to a point where I find "surrender at the foot of the Father Tree" remotely plausible.  Dumb dumb dumb.
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Josine

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptyFri Dec 29, 2017 5:48 pm

Ok but is this tree really fucking flammable or what??? Where do those explosives come from??

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ErinC1978

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptyFri Dec 29, 2017 8:47 pm

I can kinda sorta see where the elves might assume there's not much the humans could do to them at that point, but really, why indulge them at all? :-/ Back in the day Cutter threw a starving family back out into the desert at knifepoint, and those specific humans hadn't even done anything terrible yet.

There has to have been a less contrived way to have gotten the war-men to the Father Tree at the critical moment. I'm not all that bothered that their forces were whittled down so thoroughly -- we see a LOT of Windkin and Rayek picking them off -- but if their motivation has switched from domination (since they no longer have the men for that) to pure revenge with no thought for survival, couldn't one of them have broken away as the commander negotiated terms and made a mad dash for the Father Tree?
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ErinC1978

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptyFri Dec 29, 2017 8:56 pm

Wisp wrote:
And where the heck's Newstar?  I thought she stayed on WoTM with Ohler.

Seriously. Apparently there wasn't an appropriate drawing of her to copy-paste into the paper doll diorama on pg. 27.
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Outlier

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptyFri Dec 29, 2017 9:12 pm

ErinC1978 wrote:

There has to have been a less contrived way to have gotten the war-men to the Father Tree at the critical moment.

I was thinking about that, too. It seems to me that one of the points of the hostage-taking of Ember was to establish that the humans had gun-powder. The term "cannon fodder" has been used for the Go-backs, and it made me think couldn't we have gotten to this point just as well if the humans had cannons?

The group of elves and trolls could have still been pinned in the cave, maybe taken unawares and dropping the little palace, without having to show this dark blood-thirst in Windkin, Rayek and Mender.

Maybe Kimo could have died trying to get that information to the Father Tree, instead of having a pointless death.

The Djun could have blown the tree to smithereens from some high ground.

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ErinC1978

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptyFri Dec 29, 2017 9:34 pm

The Go-Back attitude toward death has bothered me as far back as Shards/Dreamtime. Back in the OQ, they struck me as practical and more than a little callous, but not to the point of not mourning their dead. It felt more like:

* Fight now, mourn later, let your grief fuel your revenge.
* We live for battle. Death is going to result and as a society we're okay with that.
* Spirit-life in the palace has got to be pretty sweet, so losing someone is sad but also joyful.
* Glorious death in battle is a particularly awesome way to go.

Over time their stated attitude seems to have morphed into "we only live to breed more Go-Backs and actively look forward to death and in no way give a crap if any one of us dies," which strikes me as kind of a cartoonish extreme and also not consonant with observed behavior.
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wingthing

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptySat Dec 30, 2017 12:40 am

Aaaahhh... nothing like another TERRIBLE issue of Final Quest to bring me out of hibernation.

Looks like a lot of what I want to say has already been covered, re: plot holes, contrivances, character assassination, the pretentions of a Disney musical in the middle there.

So I'll just say: At this point, every character has been so monumentally STUPID, they have all gotten exactly what they deserve. Burn it all down, baby, and wake me up when it's finally over.

Also, I pray Shuna is dead, but I'm calling it as a "healer ex machina" right now. Mark my words, she'll live to the bitter end and beyond, because why would Wendy stop playing favorites now.
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Kojiyumi

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptySat Dec 30, 2017 3:53 am

Everyone's already said everything I would say.

This is pretty much my feeling at this stage going into each issue... and by the end.

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*✲゚*。✧KOJIYUMI✧。*✲゚*


ණ⃛(ᵒ͈̑ᴗ̂ᵒ͈̑ )” Getting stuff done at the speed of smell! ─=≡Σ((( つ•̀ω•́)つ

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Embala

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptySat Dec 30, 2017 6:37 am

I'll have to wait until next year or a bit longer to read my copy. From what I can read here your scene sums it up nicely, Koji. XD

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Anduinel

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptySat Dec 30, 2017 10:40 am

Yeah, got a copy. (There's a sale on all Dark Horse comics over on Comixology right now if anyone wants to get a digital copy for $2 rather than waste the money on full cover price. [link])

The events in this issue hit a level beyond contrivance. This was a level of plot-induced stupidity and out-of-character nonsense that was just unbelievable - if anyone had acted with a modicum of common sense, there literally wouldn't have been a story. It didn't read like it had been written by someone who valued these characters at all. As mentioned above, it feels like the Pinis want this to be over as much as some of us do, and they're less interested in writing these characters as themselves than they are in just moving the pieces into place to get the ending they want.

Terrible writing, but that's nothing new for this series.

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Wisp

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptySat Dec 30, 2017 11:22 am

@Kojiyumi...yesssss. There has never been a more fitting time for that gif. Sheesh, what a shitshow.

Also, don’t we know Shuna survives? I feel like we saw her in the future sending and reminiscing about what happened to the elves? Talk about squandered characters though. Why did Shuna need to be in this story at all? The ice holt humans didn’t really matter in the end, it definitely seems the go-backs, wolfriders and trolls could have handled the remnants of the invasion force without reinforcements. So that means Shuna, Kimo, and Shenshen were all dispensable. I found Shenshen’s transformation interesting initially, but there was never any follow-through or payoff with her story. All so bad....I just can’t get over it.

I did listen to the EQ Show podcast for #22 the other day and I had to laugh when one of the hosts noted that Moonshade’s death was almost meaningless in light of what we now know of elf afterlife and the palace. The podcast is usually super complimentary of everything in FQ, but even they couldn’t deny that the metaphysics has undercut the story this point. None of the elf deaths at this point pack any punch. Poor Kimo died too late in the series for me to care...
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Josine

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptySat Dec 30, 2017 11:33 am

This has been said before but I still don't get how they can let Kimo die and not include a panel with Newstar and Dart mourning him.
Also I thought Rayek had shielding abilities? Surely the instant that the human threw his whip in Kimo's direction, Rayek's first reflex should've been to shield him? Or even before that, when Kimo stepped forward. Sigh.

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ErinC1978

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptySat Dec 30, 2017 5:04 pm

Speaking of lack of continuity -- regarding the spider warrior who's helping the war-men. Didn't they shoot that guy in the shoulder back in #20? And he's still helping them? I'd think it could be a kinsman, but he has a gap in his teeth in the exact same spot. I know hatred is powerful, but...
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Lunakat

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptySat Dec 30, 2017 10:18 pm

This is how it ends... one more issue.

Wendy Pini gave it her all-- this whole series. She put her heart and soul-- and lately spiritual philosophy-- into it. For a large portion of its run, Elfquest was magic. It was heartfelt and gorgeous and just unique in the world of comics. And all of us got to feel that magic and be touched by the story in our cores at some point along the way.

I give Wendy props for trying new mediums and not being afraid to tackle Photoshop. She was experimental and brave, with varying results. There's no guarantee of an outcome, but I'm sure she has worked hard to give us the best she is capable of, right up until the last issue. People change, grow older, change their tastes and preferences and perspectives and goals.

I'm going to just chose to be grateful for the gift we were given of this long runnning story rather than parse out the details of what I did or didn't like about the last two issues.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptySat Dec 30, 2017 10:26 pm

Thank you for these words, Lunakat. Thank you for the balance. I see the truth in it and agree.

I'll take this to my heart and do my best to follow your example.

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manga

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptySat Dec 30, 2017 10:55 pm

Well said, Lunakat. This has been far from my favorite sorry line but I'm grateful for the years of enjoyment before. Heck, I wouldn't have my husband and kids if I hadn't met Ebony on the old EQ list.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptySun Dec 31, 2017 2:45 am

I like your way of thinking, Lunakat.

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ErinC1978

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptySun Dec 31, 2017 4:29 am

You're right, Lunakat, and in light of those words I feel bad that I've been ranting so much the last couple of days.

I think part of why I'm struggling with this latest issue is specifically because EQ has so often been so very wonderful. It's one of a very few media properties I've returned to again and again. Through the years it's been something of a touchstone for me. Twenty years ago, during college, I was given The Forbidden Grove as a gift, and fell in love with Cutter and Skywise and Leetah and the others. I still reread all the Wendy-drawn parts of the saga, Wild Hunt, and a few other stories at least once a year. I've genuinely liked a lot of FQ, even, and have read on fairly hopefully, sure that despite everything there's going to be a grand payoff.

The last six or so issues in particular have bounced between good and terrible for me. Every time one issue gets me excited about FQ again, the next one's been cold water in the face. I'm starting to realize that whatever happens in the final issue may not make me feel good about the story as a whole, which may be a first for me in Wendy-drawn EQ.

But it's important to remember that I'm not owed whatever it is I've been hoping for or expecting. Ultimately, ElfQuest belongs to Wendy and Richard. And Wendy herself has set the bar so very high over the years. How many artists always reach the heights they achieved in the best of their work? And very few artists indeed have achieved the heights of ElfQuest at its best. Whatever the final issue holds, nothing can take that away.
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Miss Gillespie

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptySun Dec 31, 2017 10:34 am

sure, we're not entitled to Elfquest, but the Pinis never merely work on the comics just to do comics. They wan't the story to get out there, they like the idea of having fans, they really wanted to get that movie and maybe even get a little bit famous in the process. Elfquest was never just for Elfquest's sake.

The Pinis commercialised their baby, and we are their customers. As much as we are not entitled to an iPhone, as customers we can still complain when the quality goes down. As much as we are not entitled to Elfquest, we have every right to complain when story and art get worse and worse.

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Wisp

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #23   20 - Final Quest #23 - Page 3 EmptySun Dec 31, 2017 11:38 am

I hear you, Lunakat, and point well taken. For our own sanity, it’s probably healthier not to dwell on the negative so much. But what you say also resonates with me, Miss Gillespie. The disappointment is real for me, and I’m still coming to terms with it in every issue. I don’t want to pretend I’m not going through that process. I’m glad if other people can focus on the good exclusovely, I mean that genuinely.

EQ has been in my brain for over 25 years now. It literally shaped the way I think about characters and stories. Heck, I wouldn’t be in the career I am now if it weren’t for elfquest. Wendy was an inspiration. In the days before the internet, before I knew anything about her beyond what I could glean from her artwork, the letter pages, and interviews in the gatherums, Wendy gave me hope that fantasy could be more than a passion, it could be a livelihood too. A woman could live and work independently on the strength of her talent and imagination. Nothing that happens to the EQ brand can ever change that. My loyalty carried me through a lot of, frankly, subpar stories and artwork. Years and years worth. It’s dragged me all the way through FQ. Seeing glimpses of Wendy’s genius is almost as excruciating as it is appreciated. And that’s the thing that makes FQ feel like such a trial to read; I wouldn’t still be here if I didn’t want it to be good, if I didn’t hold out some hope of payoff. I’ve gotten bitter as I come to terms with the fact that the story does not work for me. I’d venture to say that it is objectively not good.

Heroes fall the hardest. Hearing more from Wendy over the years has not been an unalloyed good. It could be worse. A female novelist I admired even before I encountered EQ was eventually exposed as a bona fide child abuser and sexual predator. Wendy’s not a monster by any means, but she has her foibles which we’ve all seen now. Such revelations, whether more or less extreme, make me take a second look at my childhood idols, the work they produced, and by extension, the life choices I’ve made because of them. 2017 has been a year when I really craved the consolations of nostalgia. But maybe it’s better that everything be stripped away for an entirely fresh start. Maybe this seems an overblown reaction to a comic series, but I feel like a lot of folks here have been touched by EQ on a deeply creative level too.

That’s all. I can’t promise not to gripe in the future. Feel free to skip my comments if I do. Maybe you do already and that’s fine. That’s the beauty of a message board format.

Happy new year, everyone. Here’s to a creative 2018.
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