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 Unused elements and twists not taken

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manga

manga

Posts : 923
Join date : 2015-03-25

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PostSubject: Unused elements and twists not taken   Unused elements and twists not taken EmptySun Mar 04, 2018 12:18 am

What are some things that weren't used or didn't play out the way you thought they would?

I thought Cutter's sense of time was going to be the edge they needed to keep on top of the Shards War and to deal successfully with humans.

Also, though it wouldn't have fit well with "Rogue's Curse," I kind of would have liked to see Rayek stay with Leetah to help her parent Cutlet. It would have nicely reflected Cutter's raising of Venka (even if I think that's been over-emphasized; failing to drive her out is not the same thing as being a surrogate father, after all).
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BlueCoyote

BlueCoyote

Posts : 33
Join date : 2017-11-23

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PostSubject: Re: Unused elements and twists not taken   Unused elements and twists not taken EmptyMon Mar 05, 2018 9:24 pm

I was honestly expecting the scene where Korafay confronted Rayek that they were going to Recognize and that it would force to a head the whole ghost-Winnie-haunting-Rayek thing. But after all the cannon things they declared non-cannon I'm sort of disappointed by the whole Rogue's Curse thing being kept (I felt it was a weak storyline and unfair that all of Rayek's self discovery and learning don't matter/count somehow). I thought it would have been the kind of delicious irony that they were striving for that the green-eyes feisty maid who finally captured him was a descendant of his hated rival.
When they didn't do that I thought they would be matching her with Reef since they were hinting at that, but then it was just sort of 'eh, we're out of time', and sort of dropped her story. I felt like there were more storylines that they meant to weave together and didn't get around to.
I mentioned Dre-ann in the thread for 24, what about Dre-ann? He was just sort of hanging around humming but not saying or doing anything. Leetah kept saying how great and helpful and knowledgeable he was... but like how? About what? What did he ever actually do? He saved Leetah from falling once, but that could have been done by anyone. I wondered if they were going to have Leetah Recognize Dre-an and it would be some big thing that Cutter had to learn to deal with, I wondered if that was why she seemed to like him so much, but he was just sort of there for no reason and they didn't really do anything with him.
Ember and Teir's delayed Recognition... like what? But why tho? Why was it delayed when it took like four years for the warmen to actually get around to attacking them? There was time for Venka to have a baby before they attacked, why couldn't Ember have popped out the kid(s) and been fit enough to fight even if she was nursing? It would have been far more feminist in my mind to have her go through normal Recognition and then declare that Lifebearer or not, she was chief and warrior First and she would fight. I would have freakin LOVED it if she'd had twins then stuck them in a backpack, slung them on Tier and told him "go look after the cubs while I lead the Wolfriders and Go-Backs into battle!"

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jaRf

jaRf

Posts : 463
Join date : 2015-04-07

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PostSubject: Re: Unused elements and twists not taken   Unused elements and twists not taken EmptyWed Mar 07, 2018 8:40 pm

If I was really to think about it, even re-read FQ in its entirety, that would be a long list.

There were generic things and specific things, and things that were not even really in-comic.

art style
Try to have something more reminiscent of the old main quest / original quest art style. Lines and also colours.
The digital colouring may be more vibrant, but then you have that nasty RGB -> CMYK transition and CMYK is one of the worst colour spaces. Looks like a swamp on November afternoon. Wink

communication
The old scrolls of color would be back. No more FB.
No plain rejection of criticism. (Public) Art is always a dialogue, no matter what. If you paint something on a wall, there will be reactions. Different perceptions, different reactions. Accept that as normal.
And sometimes citique is not subjective, it's rather objective, factual. That could be a hint how to improve certain aspects.

in-story / in-comic generic
Keep focus on the rich set of characters (with depth) that we already have.
Do not introduce many more characters - especially when they remain shallow. Do not introduce new characters just a dress-up dolls for fancy costumes.
Re-tell FQ with more time, relaxed writing, no sudden jumps (like in some Japanes movies, where you're supposed to complement the rest), no rushing, more character-character dialogues.

And give certain things & characters more screentime.
Paint people more-dimensional, not too plain evil / good.
More depth to characters.
Less holes in the story.
No jumps.

Dre-Ahn
What most people already wrote: Explain him. Currently I wonder what his task is, besides being another figure that remains rather shallow, no matter how mysterious he is.

Ember / Teir
For several years of comics we were told that both are close, and eventually they recognized later in FQ (which is also a good time ago now). Still, Ember pushes all the thoughts of cubs away, because she's so totally busy being a chief of the tribe and stuff. Makes me wonder how Cutter could have her (and Sunstream). He was also chief on a quest. And totally busy and stuff. Smile

Oh, and don't make Teir be his own grandfather. Yeah, I know it's different, but seriously, ... they could have left his father a mystery or just some other elf (after they introduced 1000s of characters), now there's something like a huge elfin incest and everyone is anyone's brother, sister and grandparents at the same time... (exaggerated but you get the direction)

Cutter
Again: His end was flimsy storytelling because of the off-EQ-world / off-comic reason "we're exhausted, we need to end the series, ah, let's kill the main character, then every series must end". No matter what. The bite itself, well, okay, why not? Doesn't need all that heroic stuff all the time. But that nobody really cared, that he, for himself, didn't care, no use of preservers, other possible healers and so on. And please, not Skywise complaining about "unspent time with each other" - when he just had left with the palace for good.
I think the series could have ended without him dying.

And maybe save him that Tim-Tam.

Strongbow / Moonshade
That there is a conflict within this old couple after so much time... well, yes. But somehow the whole outcome and "solution"... meh.

Kahvi's relations
I wish there had been more talk between all her relatives. She was in the furs with everyone and is everyone's mother. So lovers and children have a common part, something to talk about, to exchange news and views about her.
More screentime for that.

Two-Edge
Was there something in for him in the end? Tending more to his troll or the elfin side? Get to kick his "mother's" butt? Something?

Winnie
Add more depth. More reason. More history. Explain why, make it more understandable.
Less of the "pure evil for no other reason than the off-world reason that you need an anti-part". Less of the Disney-style-evil-Queen.

Rayek
Now let's get to the big Kahoona, right? Wink
God bless fan fiction. God bless fan art. We can do there what is good and right and cancel all that Rogue's Curse.
To me R's Curse felt more like the idea of someone who had a sudden idée fixe about some dark, slightly exotic gunslinger-wild-west-comic-crossover-hispanic-touch-tragic-lover thing. But it does not really feel ElfQuest (which is also partially due to the different art style).
So let's all just assume it is not canon.
And let's forget this silly thing, that re-set, reversed his whole character with that "No, can't let her go, she must love me back first."
I think we already discussed that at length, but still, it was one of the worst points ever in EQ, also on a meta-level, m'kay?

To stay with Leetah to raise "Cutlet", as Manga suggested, would have been okay, too (if Cutter really was to die). On the other hand, well, probably it would not have been easy with Winnie still being spooky.

I think if Venka wasn't his daughter she'd have been a fairly good choice as a lifemate for him.
Korafay... oh, well. Hehe. Would be a similar level like recognizing ShenShen. Much contrast. Probably sparks.



There are plenty more characters, if I think about it. A good bunch of open things, loose threads.
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Wisp

Wisp

Posts : 169
Join date : 2015-09-23

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PostSubject: Re: Unused elements and twists not taken   Unused elements and twists not taken EmptyThu Mar 08, 2018 11:20 am

This is a great topic, and one I'd have to think about to really come up with more good possibilities. Certainly, I'm with everyone who's flagged Dre-Anh. I don't understand what his character was supposed to represent. I understand that he was supposed to be symbolic of something more than being a fully fleshed out character (how typical of FQ, no?) But whatever it was was way too opaque. I have no idea what his point was, and aside from basic character design, see nothing interesting or redeeming in him whatsoever. Even his humming magic was lame.

Ember and Teir's recognition storyline was boring for me. With all the kidnapping and fighting and running it should have been fun, but it the end it was all a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. I strongly disagree that basic world-building rules should be broken once for the sake of surprise. I think you can make compelling stories while keeping to the framework of a fantasy world. Dewshine and Tyldak's recognition is a great example. Even Nightfall and Redlance's recognition tiptoed right up to the boundary of Recognition in-universe, but stayed on the right side of the line. Ember and Teir's drama destroyed the concept of recognition for me. A shame.

I think all of the newest generation of elves was a complete wasted opportunity. I know essentially nothing about Pool or Sust, very little about Freetouch or Korafay, nothing at all about Venka's daughter, Skywise's daughter, Cutlet, Ember and Teir's future child, etc. These characters did not have a role to play. Freetouch and Korafay came the closest to having personalities, but they had no real function in the story. Ultimately, FQ had too many characters, and a lot of time was devoted to fan service. A character would pop up for one page just for a cameo and then disappear again forever. It wasted valuable page space and did not advance the stories or characters.

Otherwise I agree with what everyone else has said. Two-Edge didn't have a very satisfying arc, nor did Rayek and Winnowill.

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Prism

Prism

Posts : 711
Join date : 2016-05-02

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PostSubject: Re: Unused elements and twists not taken   Unused elements and twists not taken EmptyThu Mar 08, 2018 9:42 pm

Once again(sigh),there's so much to touch upon. So,here goes........................................................
(1) Once Ember and Teir Recognized and they were out of danger,then have them consummate. Ember's tribe was in a safe place with plenty of time to raise a child. Besides,Dewshine threw herself wholeheartedly into battle while pregnant with Windkin,heavily pregnant Kahvi was hunting bear solo,Nightfall was acting as a guard while ready to pop and Brill decided to give birth in the open ocean despite the danger. By the time of the final confrontation,Ember's cub would'v been an adult or a stripling at the least. Wendy's Pro-Choice Agenda at work and ignoring the history of several successful elf pregnancies during dangerous times.

(2) Moonshade. Show her learning magic and the wonders of the Palace.Reintroduce Ahnshen and the idea of a new flirtation. Show her interacting with the Sun(Star)Folk and confronting her old prejudices. In her High One form,keep her square face and give her a figure similar to Winnowil at least. But she literally became a Stepford Wife,High One style!

(3)Korafay,Freetouch,Sust and Pool. They all needed more growth and characterization. Venka,Tyleet,Mender and Windkin got growth and character development it during Hidden Years.

(4) Either introduction of new elves that made no sense,Hidden Ones and Dre-Ahn who got way too much storytime or barely blips about the others.Fire Elves,Shapechanged, that couple. Same goes for Firstcomer Troll.

(5)Cutter died like a wimp and I'm being polite in my choice of words! If Wendy felt that it was his time,at least have him killed fighting Djunsmen instead of from a stupid spider bite!

(6)Why is ShenShen still human in the epilogue!? Iceholt Humans are welcome in the Holt,so she can go back to elf form now.

(7) Don't wanna go in the stupidity of Dart/Mender,TimTam,medieval level guns being Weapons of Mass Destruction,the most inaccurate and stupid way to show an invasion or how New Agey FQ became.

Think of more later.
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Miss Gillespie

Miss Gillespie

Posts : 613
Join date : 2015-04-25
Location : Shanghai

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PostSubject: Re: Unused elements and twists not taken   Unused elements and twists not taken EmptySat Mar 10, 2018 2:31 am

Instead of incorporating and trying to solve all story threads, just concentrate on two or three. The rest can be shown in the background (the Mender and Dart thing would've been better in the background for fans to speculate about).

Have a real story-arc and think it through. Having FiQu as Cutter's final quest is not necessary bad, but it has to have a coherent story line. However, it doesn't help that Cutter isn't an old man...

Don't ret-con and claim you're not ret-conning. If you don't want to be accused of it, maybe just don't do it.

No time-jumps

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BlueCoyote

BlueCoyote

Posts : 33
Join date : 2017-11-23

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PostSubject: Re: Unused elements and twists not taken   Unused elements and twists not taken EmptySat Mar 31, 2018 11:12 pm

I have so many complaints about FQ, but most of them pretty much boil down to Narrativus interruptus. I could see where i thought the story was going to go in some bold or interesting route, and then suddenly they'd back out of it and try to shoehorn in some weird thing that didn't make any sense and totally didn't jive with everything we'd seen before.
Two-Edge and Venka
Two-Edge really got pretty shafted in this story, but as parcel with Winnowill's storyline if she gets no resolution than neither does he. They spent so long playing up his love for Venka that I thought we'd have a really shocking lovemating between them, perhaps even a Recognition? I don't know why they randomly decided that Venka was going to have a cub totally out of the blue with a couple of rando Go-Backs (other than to make us wonder why the hell couldn't Ember have popped out hers and Teir's cub in time to still fight the Djun?) but it felt like they maybe were going to have that cub be Venka/Two-Edge's but chickened out partway and pointed at two random Go-Back who had appeared on-camera in proximity to Venka and declared them her "lovemates who've always been there" *shifty eyes*. It would have made more of a something out of the nothing apology the Trolls got from Timmain if there had been a so much more pretentious moving speech about how they were all kin of the same world and this elf/troll child was proof of love conquering all.
Windkin/Ahdri
First let me preface by saying how much I hate hate hate the Blair-era character design for Windkin and I dunno why they kept it. They took his character design from HY and gave it to Pool (but they never used his powers except in WH, in FQ Pool is just an archer and doesn't do anything) and went with the crazy hair and stripper outfits design instead. Add to that, in FQ Wendy drew Windkin's hair One Time, decided that was a real pain and just copy-pasted the same hair on his bald head over and over again for the rest of the series. And that they decided his character design included wing-elements and they were going to stick with it, even though you have this whole huge storyline about how he wanted wings to be like Tyldak, but then Tyldak was killed by humans and he didn't want wings because it was too sad, but then Leetah said "But I can totes gives you wings!" and he was all "Lol, ok!" And then they give him gross veiny skin-flaps on his arms and called those wings, and they only connect along his arms but not his body, and that's not how wings work, and he can already fly so whhhhyyyyyyy????
And Ahdri, poor Ahdri. Supposedly Windkin has been lurking around old Sorrow's End forever pining for her in her wounded and cocooned state, (though apparently not being able to send to her doesn't worry him somehow) and when he finds out (against all probability) that the defective trolls somehow dug with precision all the way to where Ahdri was buried in the top of a stone spire and that she has been free, he has like one moment where he is freaked out/glad to see her then is all "meh, I don't care now. Ima have a fling with Aroree and then be everyone's messenger-boy." And they just totally dropped whatever relationship or whatever was supposed to be there. I kinda thought after SatS that they were gonna hook Ahdri up with Treestump and Clearbrook but then just randomly out of the blue she hooks up suddenly with Two-Edge at the end? Is this his consolation prize for not getting to be with Venka? Like "sorry you don't get the girl you wanted, her daddy threw a fit and has a better agent than you. Here's some random blonde, look she has rock powers, she's perfect for you!"
Mender
Speaking of consolation prizes... why did Mender end up with Dart? Other than as a Dumbledore-level breadcrumb appeasement to the LBGTQ community? If Mender was down with both sides of the furs why couldn't there have been a three-mating between Teir/Ember/Mender? What about Yun? In HY and WH they had Mender and her getting along quite well, why suddenly is he falling for Dart? Why are they suddenly declaring Lifemates after like a season? A year? It was just very rushed and didn't feel terribly substantive.

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Our "We Hate Sonny Strait" song only has one verse,
but it's sung to the tune of Hava Nagila
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Paranthropus

Paranthropus

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Join date : 2015-07-23

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PostSubject: Re: Unused elements and twists not taken   Unused elements and twists not taken EmptySun Apr 01, 2018 1:08 am

BlueCoyote - YES!!! All of this!!
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Startear

Startear

Aquarius Goat
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PostSubject: Re: Unused elements and twists not taken   Unused elements and twists not taken EmptySun Apr 01, 2018 8:41 am

I initially liked the Moonshade plot, but I felt that the execution could have been better. As said above me, have her have more interactions with the Sunfolk and being challenged on her old views. Maybe even prior to choosng to live in the palace.

I also. Hm. I kind of felt cheated in a way. In the dream everyone was so sure she would die, and then when she stopped identifying with the Wolfrider way was such a nice twist on that dream. It symbolized growing apart and it was so cool! When it turned out she did DIE it felt so forced and like we had been fooled all along, she was going to die.

I am, as no one will be surprised by, wondering what happened to Chot. How did he get caught by Ekolin? He was searching for Jethel, did he find him? They wrote Fire-Eye out of the story, and I am fine with that! But I expected some answers.

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