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Elwing

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PostSubject: Final Quest #9   Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:07 am

So, I thought I'd make a topic now that this issue is out, so we can discuss it and those who haven't got it yet can avoid spoilers. Did you get it? What are your thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:26 pm

Would probably be a good idea (and somewhat of a pain, I'm sure) to move the portion of the "Final Quest" thread that deals with issue #9 into this.

Or at least moving forward, make a "Issue" thread for each issue that comes out, so no one accidentally gets something something spoiled by reading the other Final Quest thread.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:13 pm

Ok. Here are my last comments:
Elwing wrote:
All the recycling and cutting and pasting is getting to me. I do want to like this stuff, but I'm very close to the point of giving up on it.

Was there a lot of that in this issue? I didn't notice.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:14 pm

(This is straight up cut and paste from the "Final Quest" thread:

Weighing in...

First of all, I don't think that Venka was disparaging Two Edge. Cutter called him a "misfit"-- but Venka said he was "a shining one." She seems to admire him. But she's also calling him out on his behavior-- he did throw a childish temper tantrum, and according to her, this must not be the first time. She's right in saying that he's brilliant, but a slave to his emotions. He doesn't have himself under his own control. It makes sense that she would point this out, because self control is the defining characteristic of her personality. She clearly, however, admires him.

I think her comment about how lucky the misfit trolls would be if he were their chief is part an expression of her appreciation/respect for Two Edge, and part foreshadowing. Some blurb somewhere, possibly the spoiler for issue 10? said that Two Edge would make a surprising alliance. It sounds as if he is going to ally himself with the misfit trolls.

I wonder if he will lead them or prompt them to attack the Wolfriders? The last thing he did before running away was to express his anger at Cutter for always spoiling his plans. He blames Cutter for stealing away Venka and seems to still hold a grudge about the palace war. If the trolls were to, say, steal Treestump's weapons and attack the elves with them, that would be one way for Treestump's dream to come true.

Skywise's fight with Timmain doesn't make a lot of sense. She's never acted that way toward him before (though, granted, most of the time we saw them together, she was a wolf-- so who knows).. and secondly, I just don't follow her reasoning. An elf like Savah would have never been able to make that kind of journey. I think this is just a set up to keep Skywise away from the palace, so that he can be suddenly surprised by the star-blanket-girl from his dreams.

The scene with Cutter at the end... yeah, it's a little distant. I guess Cutter knows that the only reason Skywise is staying behind is because he's miffed at Timmain. Every other time, it was so he could be close to Cutter and it was a very emotional decision-- but this time, no. Still, it's nice that Cutter recognizes he is upset and quietly cheers him up with dreamberries. That's a role reversal. Usually it's Skywise who discerns Cutter's moods and tries to lighten them. Things seem to have flipped since the original quest.

Rayek... that's going to be trouble. I don't know how or why he thinks the elves would be able to help him with Winnowil this time when they couldn't do it before. This seems like the worst possible moment to bring her spirit back to the Palace... but I guess we will find out.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:18 pm

I can imagine that separating the "final quest" thread into spoiler and non-spoiler bits is not just a pain, but a monumental agony in the posterior. I'm not here to create problems or more work for people- If the mod team agrees, maybe we should just leave what's in the past in the past and start with a clean slate for each issue, and if they don't like my idea, we can just keep the "final quest" topic as an ongoing discussion of all the current publications?
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:28 pm

Lunakat wrote:
Ok. Here are my last comments:
Elwing wrote:
All the recycling and cutting and pasting is getting to me. I do want to like this stuff, but I'm very close to the point of giving up on it.

Was there a lot of that in this issue? I didn't notice.

I notice it a lot in the scale of things. First page, the Djun appears- when his eyes are zoomed in upon, the line-work gets kind of crude. This was drawn on a much smaller size and blown up. Then, as an example, you get the first frame in which Rayek and Ekuar appear. Very fine linework- this was drawn on a much larger format and scaled down. No human being could possibly draw something this detailed. When you look at the frame below it, Venka appears as the middle point of a small crowd- she is drawn in very fine lines, the rest are cruder- and Two-Edge really looks like he was pasted into the picture- he is lighted with heavy shadows, unlike the rest.

And this goes on and on- it's jarring, it looks very unnatural to me. Like the characters were drawn separately and pasted together.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:32 pm

I don't really think it's necessary to hide spoilers anymore. It's been almost two weeks since issue #9 came out, and there'll always be someone who haven't read certain things. Seperated threads for each issue doesn't make sense to me either; after all we don't just discuss the events in issue #9 (or whatever) but things that happened in earlier issues as well as what might happen in later. We've already had a lot of discussions about what might happen in issue #10, and I'm sure as soon as the cover for issue #11 is published we'll go nuts again.

But maybe for issue #10 - and future issues - we can make any agreement to hide any spoiler stuff under the spoiler-tags for the first week.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:55 pm

Redhead Ember wrote:
I don't really think it's necessary to hide spoilers anymore. It's been almost two weeks since issue #9 came out, and there'll always be someone who haven't read certain things. Seperated threads for each issue doesn't make sense to me either; after all we don't just discuss the events in issue #9 (or whatever) but things that happened in earlier issues as well as what might happen in later. We've already had a lot of discussions about what might happen in issue #10, and I'm sure as soon as the cover for issue #11 is published we'll go nuts again.

But maybe for issue #10 - and future issues - we can make any agreement to hide any spoiler stuff under the spoiler-tags for the first week.

I think everyone does it different. For me, I run a website for the New Warriors comic (granted not being published at the moment) - but the general rule was 30 days for spoilers. (Basically until the next issue came out). Some people can't make it to the store the first week or two that it comes out (whether lack of funds and what not). So having a "general" thread, where they may want to discuss something in issue #8 (from an ongoing thread within a general one), may on accident see something that happens in issue #9.

So individual threads, I think work the best. As for "what might happen in issue #10" - that's all speculation. So that's normal conversation - but at least it's contained within the thread about the issue that's trigger that speculation.

Although, as a side note, I eventually found a PHPBB add in that allows you to highlight text and put it in Spoiler tags - so you can't see it without clicking it.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:42 pm

Just got my copy today.

All I can say is oh wow.

Venka was right Two-edge is having a bit of a temper tantrum and is a misfit himself in many ways. Plus you throw Picknose in the mix, he could maybe rule the misfit trolls and aid Two-Edge in some way.

Moonshade leaving Strongbow behind that is a shocker. The same with Skywise leaving the palace because Timmain clipped his wings so to speak. But she is right those elves making their way to the palace must do so on their own accord.

I'm glad Wing and Aroree settling things between the two. Teir and Ember seem to be on the same page for now.

Shenshen is also feeling the affects of the call. Wonder how it may alter her course in the future.

Ekuar would be welcomed readily to the palace. Rayek is another concern for what he carries within. Winnowill wanted the palace for herself and to enslave the elves within the palace for her own purposes. This will be interesting.

The Djun is finally realizing he may not live to see his plans come to fruition. I don't think the people love hime. They are afraid of the elves only and the Djun still controls much of their lives.


Now for my take on the call that Sunstream has sent out. This reminds me greatly of the sea longing the elves in Tolkiens's world have to deal with from time to time. To chose to sail for Valinor or remain in Middle Earth and fade. It is too close for my taste. Wendy has been known to use many elements from Tolkien's work. Just another example how the work of own artist can influence the work of another artist.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:57 am

I thought it was interesting that Rayek knows where the palace is going to appear but Ekuar apparently does not. It will be interesting to see how much trouble Winnie is going to cause...
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:33 am

I think it's very foolish of Rayek to go to the palace with Winnowill. She's the reason he walked away in the first place - what makes him think anythings changed? And how do you heal someone who's already dead anyway? I guess it's a measure of how much of a strain it has been on him. Although I hope he can be free of her somehow, it seems very rash to just show up without warning.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:05 am

Tymber wrote:
Redhead Ember wrote:
I don't really think it's necessary to hide spoilers anymore. It's been almost two weeks since issue #9 came out, and there'll always be someone who haven't read certain things. Seperated threads for each issue doesn't make sense to me either; after all we don't just discuss the events in issue #9 (or whatever) but things that happened in earlier issues as well as what might happen in later. We've already had a lot of discussions about what might happen in issue #10, and I'm sure as soon as the cover for issue #11 is published we'll go nuts again.

But maybe for issue #10 - and future issues - we can make any agreement to hide any spoiler stuff under the spoiler-tags for the first week.

I think everyone does it different. For me, I run a website for the New Warriors comic (granted not being published at the moment) - but the general rule was 30 days for spoilers. (Basically until the next issue came out). Some people can't make it to the store the first week or two that it comes out (whether lack of funds and what not). So having a "general" thread, where they may want to discuss something in issue #8 (from an ongoing thread within a general one), may on accident see something that happens in issue #9.

So individual threads, I think work the best. As for "what might happen in issue #10" - that's all speculation. So that's normal conversation - but at least it's contained within the thread about the issue that's trigger that speculation.

Although, as a side note, I eventually found a PHPBB add in that allows you to highlight text and put it in Spoiler tags - so you can't see it without clicking it.

It wasn't so much potential spoilers for future issues I was referring to, as the fact that we'll just never be able to talk about just the specific issue a thread is dedicated to.
As for spoiler-tags; we got those already!

SPOILER!!!!!:
 


G0lden wrote:
I'm glad Wing and Aroree settling things between the two. Teir and Ember seem to be on the same page for now.

You mean Windkin. Wing is dead.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:35 am

G0lden wrote:

Moonshade leaving Strongbow behind that is a shocker.  The same with Skywise leaving the palace because Timmain clipped his wings so to speak.  But she is right those elves making their way to the palace must do so on their own accord.

See, I used to sympathize with Timmain and the way she thought. This issue? Made me feel like she was no better than Winnowill.

I don't know. Seemed out of character, for me.

This coming from a woman, who in order to survive, hid as a wolf. Where is this "they must come on their own accord" crap when it came to the High Ones surviving? They hid like cowards, and now she has no compassion? I call bullpoops.

G0lden wrote:

Now for my take on the call that Sunstream has sent out.  This reminds me greatly of the sea longing the elves in Tolkiens's world have to deal with from time to time.  To chose to sail for Valinor or remain in Middle Earth and fade.  It is too close for my taste.  Wendy has been known to use many elements from Tolkien's work.  Just another example how the work of own artist can influence the work of another artist.

There is that saying, that there are no more original ideas, and there's only 7 ideas, for which everything is based.

http://lenwilson.us/seven-stories/

So it's no surprise at all that fantasies borrow closely from one another.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:34 am

[quote="Redhead Ember"]

SPOILER!!!!!:
 


See, I can't read spoilers like that on my iPad unless I click to reply.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:27 am

Because it's touch-screen?

I still think spoiler-tags make the most sense. Not only for threads about the comics as such, but also for the various character threads. Over in the old Scroll you kinda new that you had to be careful if a character thread suddenly got very active just when a new issue came out; the revelation of Teir's parentage, Shenshen's transformation, to mention a few. With a spoiler-tag spoiler-related stuff could be hidden while people could still freely discuss the more general stuff without worrying about being spoiled.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:30 am

Redhead Ember wrote:


SPOILER!!!!!:
 



My misanthropic side is cheering for that...
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:48 am

Stargazer wrote:
I think it's very foolish of Rayek to go to the palace with Winnowill. She's the reason he walked away in the first place - what makes him think anythings changed? And how do you heal someone who's already dead anyway? I guess it's a measure of how much of a strain it has been on him. Although I hope he can be free of her somehow, it seems very rash to just show up without warning.

There is no Elfin Postal System - how's he going to send a message? I don't think he can send that far and even if it's advisable with Winnowill in his head. Ekuar can't really get there without him - though perhaps we'll see next issue that Rayek has gone off a little ways so Ekuar can relay the request.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:11 am

We will have to wait and see, but being patient and rational has never been Rayek's forte... I think he will rush right in. here's hoping on some serious Winnowill trouble- the story needs it!
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:59 pm

We say being patient and rational has never been Rayek's forte but he's the guy who MacGuyvere'd a claw-grab mechanism to retrieve his sword using rocks and dismantled pieces of his ornamental collar.

I know he's been rash and impatient but it's not his only setting. It will be interesting to see what happens.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:26 pm

I didn't say he is dumb- he single handedly figured out time travel, for one. Quite a feat for a bronze age elf. Rayek may well be one of the smartest of the lot (along with Two-Edge!) But he is, eh, a bit limited at thinking things trough. And very rash. Thank goodness for that, never a boring minute with that guy.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:52 pm

Tymber wrote:
G0lden wrote:

Moonshade leaving Strongbow behind that is a shocker.  The same with Skywise leaving the palace because Timmain clipped his wings so to speak.  But she is right those elves making their way to the palace must do so on their own accord.

See, I used to sympathize with Timmain and the way she thought. This issue? Made me feel like she was no better than Winnowill.

I don't know. Seemed out of character, for me.

This coming from a woman, who in order to survive, hid as a wolf. Where is this "they must come on their own accord" crap when it came to the High Ones surviving? They hid like cowards, and now she has no compassion? I call bullpoops.

Having just read it myself I'm still in the flux of making up my mind about it myself... The thoughts that come to my mind are:

-Timmain labored, trying to learn survival on a planet hell-bent to destroy her and her kin.

-Even after learning a 'first part' of the lesson (hard work, becoming part of the world, risk and life and death), her companions begrudgingly accepted the fruits of her labor but did not seek out the same path as she did. (which makes me wonder if she was feeling a bit peeved at her fellows. perhaps to the point of disliking what they had become, hence walking away and spending so many thousands of years in wolf-form, as I recall).

-When she came back, Elves were at each other's throats over the 'treasure' of the Palace, not in kinship, or even reasoning why they were doing what they were doing.  She seemed ticked at Rayak for just assuming what was best for everyone according to his own standards and acting on it without consultation with anyone who might contradict him (even his interactions with Winnie were self-absorbed: both were focused on their own goals and interpreted the other's words as support for themselves.) I do not recall Timmain rebuffing Cutter, as he has been concerned with the bigger picture and has sought out the big picture, but Skywise has been fixated with the stars and has just assumed that all remote kin would wish to be free of their oppression and reach for the stars, while missing the whole draw of the wolfriders to the holt.

At first I felt the Timmain's rebuff was to point out to Skywise that it would be left to each Elf's decision to find where they belong, if they even felt like the Palace was anything they wanted. She may have been reasoning that other Elves in the past may have followed her path and formed new paths for their decentants that were even stronger than that of the Wolfriders....

Then I thought, what if there were Elves that were on other continents, via various means, that wanted to get back but couldn't cross the ocean or other terrain, besides the various hardships humans posed.... Winnie had been able to pass from her island to a distant shore as she pleased, but she had almost 10,000 years to do it and hadn't even stepped foot back on land.  There would be those that would spend decades or centuries to devise ways to find their way back, some dieing in the process.

...and so I'm wondering if it's a similar thing to what Khavi did with Tier: saving him by telling him she wouldn't save him, giving him the drive to press farther than he could normally on his own: Those that wish to rejoin the palace must work for it, as hand-outs cause weakness..,. buuuut, if you end up in a real pickle, the sending goes on and on, and it's supposed to be a link, implying two-way communication, so ask for help if you need it.

In other words, one way to look at it is Timmain's pushing to keep teaching her kin how to survive and is adverse to forcing ANYTHING on anyone against their will.

I'm still pondering, though...


Elwing wrote:
I didn't say he is dumb- he single handedly figured out time travel, for one. Quite a feat for a bronze age elf. Rayek may well be one of the smartest of the lot (along with Two-Edge!) But he is, eh, a bit limited at thinking things trough. And very rash. Thank goodness for that, never a boring minute with that guy.

Impulsive does come off as unthinking quite often (I'm dealing with that with someone presently, a very smart individual falling short of their potential by impulsive actions). Rayak was impulsive to begin with, and he hardly has a moment alone with his thoughts to think as it is, with two strong willed minds fighting for dominance....

As far as the wisdom to head straight for the palace, it's hard to say yet, there's not enough revealed yet for me. I think it would have been foremost on "the circle of three"'s minds (Timmain, Sunstream, and Skywise, as well as others, I'm sure, but those that studied together to train Sunstream for what he needs to do) that Winnie would eventually be called back to the Palace sometime in the future: an immortal spirit unbound by physics and an immortal palace with a stated range of 'a bubble extending out through several stars'... even if they just dumped Rayak and said they didn't want to deal with it, on that planet something is bound to kill him some day, and Winnie would be free to travel the stars wreaking havoc wherever she could, or show up unannounced at the Palace one day.

So, even if it's unrevealed to us yet, I think there must be some sort of plan in place to deal with her now that Sunstream is doing his thing, and that Rayak (who could deduce that the Palace was going to move according to the message before it was sent) may have interpreted the signal as a sign they were ready for him, or at least has hopes that it is what it means: to a degree I'm guessing that his torment with Winnie is just as strong as unanswered Recognition but worse in that it's about as opposite to the concept as you can get (Inverse Recognition?)

Your comment, Elwing, sparked a thought: it is funny that there are a select 'exceptional' intellegent magic users (or in Two-Edge's case, skilled to the point of magical ability with a physical thing: I do not see how he could have been a better metal-smith if he had been gifted with magic-metalshaping as an ability) and that they are all coming together in a way. Made me think of a 'dream team' of broken misfits:

Winnie
Rayak
Two-Edge
Eukar (mentally whole but of unsound body)
Teir (though his breaks are mending)
and others as interpretation suits...




On another, semi-related note, (and this might not be fixed to this issue, I kind of caught up all at once and don't remember which issue is which yet) I found the discussion Mender had about his using healing to fight with to be interesting, and in a way, refreshing. Mender has always had a flickery mental image for me: on the surface my mind puts him almost a cookie-cutter cutout of Leetah, Cutter, and Ember mixed together, the typical nurse/healer that seeks to protect and cure.... But he has a definite switch to him that doesn't fit his mental image I have of him. When the switch gets flipped he becomes seemingly more fierce than Bearclaw, an elfin dynamo of flesh-rending. I haven't felt any instability in him as is worried about him becoming like Winnie, but then I'm still trying to figure him out.

Most of everything else in the story is going along about as it could be expected to a degree, but for some reason Mender sticks out like a sore thumb to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:56 pm

Elwing wrote:
Redhead Ember wrote:


SPOILER!!!!!:
 



My misanthropic side is cheering for that...

It was Wendy who posted on FB a while back that she wouldn't mind if it happenned. I couldn't help but pointing out that since she's the author it technically could.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:04 pm

Ha, I would like that as a little throw away scene. A bit like hitting a certain secondary character with random bolt of lightning just to liven up things. Wendy is perfectly capable of doing that.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:10 pm

Ruffel is not a secondary character! She has a name.







And nobody got lived up by the experience.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #9   Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:48 pm

Well yes, but she was killed off simply to make Skywise angsty. She was hardly central to the story...
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