/Apology/Solution

sun girl wrote:

Okay Lunakat, I didn't mean to be hostile. I fully intend to respect the positive thread.

Okay- thanks! I'm sorry I misinterpreted that!

Don't know if I've ever, intentionally or not, designated anyone Final Quest Haters.
What has put me a bit off is the tendency towards
"It's different from the OQ, now it sucks!" - exaggarating (sp?) a bit here perhaps. And the - somewhat contradicting - views of:
"The story is so drawn out!"
"The story feels rushed!"

No worries Luna! I'm honestly only concerned about people's opinions getting shut down, good or bad, and I was worried this no-bad-without-good idea was gonna extend to all threads. I'm thrilled that there's a FQ lovers thread! And hey, if the haters need a venting thread to keep the atmosphere clearer for the rest, I'd be thrilled to confine my… stronger opinions there as well. Even if we're not happy with current EQ we should be happy with each other, right?

Ember, I think some people may feel the story is rushed while others feel it is drawn out… I guess I find it's both at the same time, because the pacing seems to change a lot. Some things are barely mentioned (the elves in wrapstuff! the elf who died!!) while others are dwelled upon over long periods (Moonshade's decision to lose her wolfblood - how is Strongbow still surprised by this?) As for different from OQ… well, we're suddenly totally bending the rules on Recognition and soul-individuality, those aren't just surface changes. Hard to take in.

Just to clear things up a little more here (hopefully!)

No ones opinion will ever be shut down here. Unless it that person is being a dick, then we'll be taking action. By being a dick I mean being racist, homophobic, ableist, bodyshaming, sexist, other-ists towards other members. Good healthy discussion is welcome here and always will be, but start being a dick and you are likely to get shut down for it

yeah... I just read that over. It doesn't clear up much.
I might try again later, probably won't because it requires effort XD

Like if I go

"I honesty think all pumpkin-headed squirrels are a bunch of losers who should just go right back where they came from!"

?




And that totally makes no sense on top-of the page...

I will also continue to voice my...disappointment in Final Quest. But I would never begrudge someone their enjoyment of this arc. I hope that my comments have not made anyone feel unsafe or unwelcome.

It's a good suggestion to extend this "no-bad-without-good idea" to all threads - in case you have BOTH in you. If someone can find only one side - no rule is made there must be something else "made up" to balance things. This would be a stupid rule and it contradicts what this place is made for - telling your mind and discuss. It's just encouragement to add the PRO's you have ... everywhere - because this place is made for all facets, for all points of view on EQ/FQ and for all kind of fans.

I'm one of those who sees both ... or should I say: feel both? And often it is easier for me to point out dislikes (be it Windkin's noncredible wings or the storytelling I miss in the recent sixpack) than what I like. Because it is less spectacular, less obvious, because it takes much longer for me to find words for it ... and because I feel stupid to tell "But I still like it. It is still so dear to me even when the heat of first young love has cooled down." And because there's a feeling that this opinion might get brushed away by arguments for dislike.
Supressing the opposite opinion can happen both on FB/EQ.com and here ... be it intended or unwittingly. Swimming against the tide or charging walls is not for everyone. Many prefer to swim with the current ... or stay outside the heavy sea instead.

I'm fascinated by those who vividly express their opinion, stick to it and get never tired to discuss it again and again. It's a mix of admiration for the passion and shaking the head about the energies that are spent on a fictional story.

The SoC and the community there taught me that it is okay to be passionate, to love all this and to feel engaged with "something unimportant" like a comic. They taught me that it is okay to tell your mind, that it is possible to discuss controversely and stay a community nevertheless.
And then EQ.com taught me not to be passionate about anything, not to invest time in something not vital. I was taught to question my understanding. To question my opinion and my ability to express my thoughts ... and to reconsider my comments twice, thrice , ... ten times before posting. For me as a foreign speaker and introvert kind nature this means it takes hours or days ... and everything I might be willing to contribute is already expressed better by someone else or feels irrelevant after this time. But ... that's another story ...

What I wanted to express ... FTH needs a balance of expressed criticism and love to create a mood that enables more members to share their opinion. A balance not in each single member but in general. We are good to show we are critical fans here and encourage controverse discussion. We need to show better that we are loving fans as well and encourage positive contributions and simple childlike love.

Kin made a great start with this discussion and the "The Love of FQ" thread. It's a "safe harbor" for the moment, made to encourage those who are shy or unwilling to get engaged in a controverse discussion for now. As someone else already pointed out I hope from there it will spread all over the threads and discussions ... and that we will end up with a good mix of all facets like I remember it from the original Scroll of Colors. I hope I will add to those facets again ... I'll try.

(and now I will post this with all the ramblings, typos and questionable terms that are and might be there because when I start to reconsider ... XD)


P.S. Regarding Tam's post I want to make absolutely clear that it was neither a single comment nor a single tribemate that caused this subliminal uncomfortable feeling for me. It was the sum of what was said ... even more: What was not said.  

edited for P.S., mischosen vocabulary and typos

sun girl wrote:

…why should we have to come up with pros? What if we can't? We have to just shut up?

(I am not taking that as hostile, as I read your other posts following)...

What I am suggesting (I am not an admin here, so I am just throwing out ideas to try and keep a good flow, and a place where people feel welcomed, no matter their views)...

For example, I use myself as a prime example as someone who has been VERY negative about Final Quest, and not at all, afraid of speaking my mind about it. However, realizing that this has made some folks feel like they can't share their views, has made me realize perhaps I could ease up. I could still express my views, but it's very easy, when others also share your view, to keep digging deeper and deeper.

Regardless of how I feel about the story, the plot twists - I can easily still find good things about Final Quest. Whether it's about how a couple of panels looked (removing the dialogue from them, and just respecting it from Wendy's talent for drawing) - there's still good in Final Quest to be found for me. It's just at the moment, it's not in the story. But the art still shines. So I could say, something like:
_______________________
CON: Once again, the story in Final Quest continues to throw more and more loops, and makes it feel like Wendy is one of the writer's from LOST and just making things up from month to month, to just try and shock people, rather than have that focused story I am used to.

PRO: While I didn't care for the story, I thought the three panels of Cutter, with the wolves behind him, was beautifully done. I also think that the color on Leetah's garment are really well done. I also liked the panel where they showed Skywise realizing the humans are about to slaughter the Wavedancer.
_______________________

Naturaly, that's not going to work every time; because there's going to be general discussion (where someone might quote the pro or con portion and discuss it). But at least, initial posts about the issues, we can try to share both.

Again, not mandatory at all (I am no one on this forum!) - I am just looking for ways to have some peace and make it feel like everyone is welcomed here.

Tymber wrote:

(I am no one on this forum!)

I mean this in the nicest way possible, but DUDE! STFU!!!! Of course you are. Everyone is someone on this forum.

Nibblet wrote:

Tymber wrote:

(I am no one on this forum!)

I mean this in the nicest way possible, but DUDE! STFU!!!! Of course you are. Everyone is someone on this forum.

Hah! Thank you! What I meant, was no one in power - not an admin, moderator or anything. Just someone who realizes that he's made a mistake and as a result (was a part of the reason that) exiled some people he really appreciates and wants around the forum.

Thank you, my dear. <3

I look at Elfquest as two things:  a creative project, and a consumer product.

Both should be subject to criticism.  Many writers and artists attend workshops and submit their work to juried competitions, because they value other people's opinions of their work.

I mentioned before that my late mother was a competition quilter.  I think the quilt that is currently on my bed is not one of her best designs.  I don't care for the selection of colors in the sections where the blocks meet.  I suspect she purchased the pieced top and quilted it.

I still like the quilt, and my husband is currently sleeping under it.  Someone else might think it's the most beautiful quilt they have ever seen.

We complain about many consumer products and services, yet continue to purchase and use them.  For all the criticism it's received over the years, the American restaurant chain McDonald's is still thriving.

Same with Elfquest.  I think the two biggest differences between Final Quest, and the first few issues of the Original Quest, are the drawing style and media, and the fact that the story doesn't revolve around a central character.  I doubt that readers who were completely satisfied with the Original Quest are going to appreciate every aspect of the current series.

I agree, Trollbabe!

I wonder, if essentially what happened to me, is sort of what happened with others. As I said, I didn't feel like I could say anything negative about ElfQuest; because if it started as a healthy discussion, if I continued to defend my view, I soon had a swarm upon me, which resulted in me, eventually deleting my posts off the FB pages, and not going there anymore.

I wonder if others, felt the same, and thus don't post on the ElfQuest FB page, and now post here. So what happens is we have people content with Final Quest posting on the FB pages, and this has become a place to freely discuss what we don't like about Final Quest. But what has alienated me from wanting to post on FB (not being able to freely discuss the negatives, without feeling attacked), has happened here (there are those who feel like they can't post about the positives, without feeling attacked).

It's like two tribes of opposing views.

And I hope to find a happy, middle ground.

i don't post negative comments on the Pini's Facebook page out of respect. I mean... it is very public. Someone compared it to a front porch. It really is just for promoting and lauding their product. I don't want to be rude to them, or throw criticism in their faces with other customers, potential publishers and promoters watching. I just don't think it's the place to have an in-depth discussion or launch criticism.

I also don't like posting my opinions about a comic book on Facebook, because what i say then is broadcast to all my friends and family. I don't really think they would appreciate being inundated with my thoughts on Elfquest and Final Quest. I don't want to be broadcasting all that.

This forum, however, is a perfectly great place to do that. This is where we should all freely discuss. We don't have to be "two tribes with opposing views" here-- we can be one tribe that enjoys a lively discussion, weighing all povs. That's the fun of a forum!

I hope everyone continues to feel very welcome here.

Lunakat wrote:

i don't post negative comments on the Pini's Facebook page out of respect. I mean... it is very public. Someone compared it to a front porch. It really is just for promoting and lauding their product. I don't want to be rude to them, or throw criticism in their faces with other customers, potential publishers and promoters watching. I just don't think it's the place to have an in-depth discussion or launch criticism.

Oh, I'd never do it on Wendy or Richard's FB page. But I was expressing myself on the ElfQuest facebook page.

Nibblet wrote:

But I think it's kind of the same thing-- isn't it? I mean-- the only purpose of that page is to promote the comic book. To write on their personal pages would actually be more private-- and, consequently, I think a better choice in that respect. I should have been a little more clear by what I meant. I mean.. I do respect them as people and don't want to hurt their feelings.. but that's not why I wouldn't post negative comments on the main Elfquest Facebook page. It's more that I wouldn't want to do anything to upset their marketing or the public image of the comic book.

I think this forum is great for hashing everything out. And I think that the old Scroll of Colors was fine for that too- because it was off the beaten path. You had to log on, read a ton of message, etc to find out what people were saying. I don't think most people were gonna do that who weren't fans there for the purpose of dialogue. But the Facebook page is mostly just headlines, newsflashes and people clapping for them. It's like an ongoing press release. So I'm not gonna post anything negative there-- cus I don't want to mess with their good press.

Maybe the Scroll of Colors Facebook group would be the best place (other than here) for that now?

FWIW I think social media is too complicated. I recall Google came up with something that allows you to choose who sees what, but again, who has time? This forum is simple to follow, and is organized by topic.

I hope my marketing topic thread was not too negative. I think Elfquest has been a creative success, but it could have been more popular.

I didn't know this thread was here, but it warms my heart to read it now and see how much people care about keeping this a friendly, close-knit forum-- and how much I personally am cared about; that really makes me feel wonderful, folks!

For the record, I have never felt that I might be attacked for posting positively about the Final Quest or anything else. And I really don't have a problem discussing negative or critical things about the Final Quest. I mean, to be honest, I think Windkins arm flaps are just, well, silly. They don't look like they could possibly work to really fly with, and since he can float anyway, why does he want them?

The thing is that when someone posts that the Final Quest is just a disaster, a train wreck, etc., there really isn't any way to discuss that. "Is not!" "Is too!" is hardly interesting as a discussion, if you see what I mean...

And then as Lunakat said, sometimes it felt like things were just getting into a negative feedback loop. I think this should be a safe place to say negative things. It's just that cynicism can breed more cynicism, until the whole feel of a conversation just gets-- unpleasant, if you know what I mean.

But you know, when someone just says, "the pacing is ruining it for me," or something like that, I really don't mind. I just don't have much to say in response other than, "Really? I'm not having a problem with it." It just seems-- tiring, I guess, to just talk about why I don't feel about it the way other people do, instead of talking about the things I'm enjoying.

I love the idea of having two threads, one positive and one negative. I might actually post in both places, you know, because there are things (like Windkin's arm flaps) that I really don't like. It's just that for me, the negatives are incidentals in an overall positive experience, whereas for many of you, it's vice versa. And that's ok. Really.

*hugs all round*

Didn't see this thread before now. O.o
Wow..don't really know what to say, but yes..there is a reason why I haven't been around here so much. Every time a new issue came out the last months, I really wanted to log in here and talk about it, the good stuff, and the bad, but when I did that I felt everything was so negative, and I lost the excitement I felt after reading a new issue. Don't get me wrong, not everything is brilliant, and it's so ok to talk about that to, but come on...

Davrille wrote:

Some of the comments in the last couple weeks, to me, have a note of looking for anything to criticize, no matter how spurious or taken out-of-context. A couple have even made me wonder if we've read the same comics all these years.

Just as I felt.

It's sad if we need to divide into groups pro/con. just try to not look for just bad things, look for mistakes ++? And please respect others opinions, no need to be mockingly, rude, and such. If someone don't like something, that's ok if they can...justify it, if you now what I mean?

I think it's actually impossible to divide into groups of pro/con. If you do that, it stops being a discussion and just starts being lists of good things and bad things, and a lot of us are here because we feel that's already what's happened on Facebook and the official Elfquest site. Plus, I think a lot of people here do have parts they like and parts they don't, and I feel it would be kind of strained to always be saying "Wait, can I post this here? Can I say I don't like this in the love thread? Can I defend this part in the other thread?"

And I think no one here wants to be constrained to some kind of two-positives, one negative posting rules. Who wants to police that, anyway.

You know, if we were all sitting around at a cafe or in someone's living room, we would have this feedback of body language that the conversation was getting uncomfortable and, even if not recognized by everyone, eventually most of the group would realize and steer the conversation back to more neutral ground. Online, there's no such feedback, so visitors who feel uncomfortable with the conversation just disappear, and the people who are left just reinforce each other, sometimes here into little snark-fests.

To be honest, my first response in reading this thread was that the people who were feeling uncomfortable should just speak up and post more often, because it is kind of this feedback loop that a couple people with one opinion stop posting, then others who weren't too bothered before start feeling more isolated and leave too, then first-time visitors who might have joined the conversation leave thinking this place really isn't for them.

But you can't control anyone else's behavior and make them post ("How? With my fists?"), and not everyone wants to fight to be the one dissenting voice that might stop the downward spiral, so I guess all we can do is decide what kind of community we want and be mindful of when we are started down that path so we can step in and make it a place where everyone feels welcome to express their opinions.

Very wise words, Outlier.  Thanks.  I agree that I should have participated more and spoken up about my feelings, instead of just going away. And I agree that we shouldn't make rigid rules about one thread or another-- just try to keep a more positive tone on one, while allowing for more negative expression on the other.  

I'm glad we're having this conversation about what kind of forum we want to have.  It's very productive.

Not dividing into pro and con groups ... I don't think that was ever intended. Not by the fans who have mostly praise for the FQ. Not by fans who are disappointed and happy to be allowed to utter their criticism here. And not at all by all the fans who feel sitting in between.

And not by Kindredsoul for sure when she opened the "for love only" topic. I see it as an encouragement to start there with positive loving comments and praise ... not a suggetion to keep it solely there. I HOPE it will spread all over the threads and that the voices and points of view will mix everywhere.

I think the problem built up because things got out of balance on the EQ FB page where negative comments are suppressed or feel inappropriate. When fans who felt the need to utter criticism finally found FTH where they were not only allowed but welcomed to speak freely it was like bursting of a dam. Their voices were concentrated and overwhelming loud like flood wave. And other fans ducked away (like me) or their voices were not heard anymore (like Redhead).

I dream of FTH as a place where there are no walls, not almost-catastrophies but lively various landscapes with forests, dark and golden, streams with rapids, waterfalls and smooth passages, sunnyblue sky and thunderstoms - inhabited by individuals with own minds, different ideas, wishes and ways, acting as one tribe.