Inauguration Day and after

Do you trust Elizabeth Warren?

Trollbabe wrote:

If radical pro-choice feminists think Clinton is a war hawk who only cares about rich white women, I see no reason to trust her. https://www.versobooks.com/books/2121-false-choices

If you didn't like her in the first place, then this link a good backup for what you thought to just cement your opinion, it doesn't challenge anything.
I didn't like Hilary btw. But I also know she's a lot more qualified and wouldn't just run her mouth and drag us into war purely out of ego. Which, btw, will happen.
I never understood how people had this idea that Trump was 'honest' because he comes off as blunt. It's hilarious - bluntness is not honesty. He's never come off as honest just because he has no filter.

Yeah- people often mistake rude bluntness for honesty.

Everyone knows Elizabeth Warren is running for the next election-- right? How do y'all feel about her?

Trollbabe wrote:

White supremacists appeal to those who feel helpless and disenfranchised.  For example, white people who can't find a good job might feel threatened by ranks of minorities and immigrants who are obviously employed.

I've heard this as "justification" for a lot of Trump voters. While I understand it on a basic level, I don't feel much sympathy. I'm a white person who can't find a good job-- and, if you knew me at all, you'd know I fit the "disenfranchised" bill quite nicely. Yet here I am, neither wearing a white sheet nor voting for a megalomaniac man-child with exactly no goddamn experience! So afaic, those "helpless"-feeling people need to come up with a WAY better excuse for getting in bed with white supremacists.

Good point Bluetree. I think it really comes down to bigotry. Everything else is just an attempt to sugar coat that-- because it reveals something ugly about American culture.

Not to denigrate American culture, but there is a lot of ugliness in it; I think a lot of people were surprised by that reality in this last election. We refuse to acknowledge that part of our culture-- answering any criticisms with outraged patriotic breast-beating, stony silence, or outright threats-- and it eventually ends up biting us in the ass one way or another. When we think we're tired of it, we welcome rude bluntness as honesty, as you said above. It's just one pathological twist after another that doesn't lead anywhere positive.

Until we can get closer to something like true two-way dialogues (leaving agendas and chips-on-shoulders at the door) becoming the norm, we're just gonna keep sliding downhill.

Lunakat wrote:

Yeah- people often mistake rude bluntness for honesty.

Everyone knows Elizabeth Warren is running for the next election-- right? How do y'all feel about her?

She's going to be 71 if she becomes president and I think she'd be too old. While she's said some important things, I think she's somewhat milquetoast.
Honestly, I'm tired of centrists, I'm tired of democrats, I can't stand the GOP, and I can't stand libertarians.
Bring me someone of color who is youngish, vibrant, and very left-leaning.

Democrats have been idiotic in trying to placate GOP and move more to the center. It doesn't work and did not work and will not work. They need to grow a spine but consistently cave (most of them, not all, of course).

I don't get this threat of immigrants and people of color 'taking away jobs' from poor sad white people. I've literally never heard of an immigrant or minority 'stealing' a job. A lot of immigrants are very hardworking people who came here and pulled themselves up by their bootstraps in an environment which wasn't always nice to them, and managed to succeed. Hell, I came from one of those families. And I know a lot of families like that who also succeeded. Doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc...
Or in other cases, they're doing demeaning crappy jobs that a lot of 'regular ol' white folk' wouldn't stoop down to doing.
All the jobs getting 'taken' away are basically outsourced by big money companies... that's who these people should be pissed at, not minorities, but it seems logic just isn't a very strong suit in this case, is it.
They're racist, period, but also want to have their hands held and be told that it's perfectly reasonable to be a casually racist because they're disenfranchised.

Just as one more point , I want people to watch this video which happened within the days that followed the ban. That insanity in the airports which was going on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jx-TYX4lTg
These people came here and put their heart and soul into this country, and love it like crazy, They put the US on a damn PEDESTAL and look at it like the best place on earth. Their love for it is unparalleled even in comparison to natives (lol using the term loosely) because they worked their asses off to get here. But these people are somehow being treated like complete crap, and like 2nd class citizens or not citizens at all despite all they do or how loyal they are. These people are your strongest allies, they're one of the reasons why this country great and they're exploiting them and punishing them for their loyalty.

Elizabeth Warren is no more centrist than Sanders-- who is, incidentally, currently 75. Much older now than she will be then. Hillary Clinton is 69 and Donald Trump is 70. Reagan was 69 when he was first elected. So what difference does it make if Warren will be 71? Obviously, that's not a disqualification. If you know anything about her-- you know she's left of center.

She founded her career on bankruptcy law-- has spent her entire political career defending consumers, the poor and the middle classes from corporate interests. You can't find a politician with more integrity than Elizabeth Warren. I don't see the conflict.

She's boring. I want my candidates more charismatic and diverse. Sorry if that sounds supercificial lol. Yes, she has integrity. But she's a supporting figure. She's not a leader though. She doesn't smell like one to me. She could be the right hand person of someone who is president though.
If the right gets to do it, I want the left to as well. And I want them to do it better. I don't want some sensible white lady in sensible shoes, I want someone fabulous and young and unapologetic . The presidency is a pageantry, and let's stop acting like it isn't. Warren is cool but not cool enough. I want to see who's going to really stand out in the next year that's young and lean and hungry and speaking to the left.
I want someone who's going to echo the diversity of this country. I liked how Obama came from a really diverse background but I hated at times how centrist he was. He was wonderful but always trying to bridge the gap and be sensible with insane people who just obstructed. Seeing how things are now, screw 'em. Let them rot. They want to be left behind and moan and complain, let them. They don't give a damn about the disenfranchised. They just let them believe they do because the disenfranchised just act like a base that's so used to being abused and like to complain. You need someone with strong socialist ideas who's going to pay them off. Make them either life out their life in peace and quiet, or change it. Say all you want about socialism but we are responsible for the people here. Give them a chunk of money and then they are responsible for what they do with their life after that. You want to join this century, go ahead. The good old days are not coming back. So make a new start. Join us.

It's time to catch this country up to the present century. At some point it's not just up to the politicians to make the public feel warm and fuzzy. If Trump's shown you anything, its that we on the other side need to drag this country into reality, whether they like it or not. We're not going to go backward to accommodate people who aren't able to diversify. They're literally dinosaurs. Get them a museum.

I think I'm understanding that you want someone who is from a more diverse ethnic background, and also younger?

Do you think it's possible, though, that her age and experience is a plus? I would also argue that, considering we have never had a woman as president, her gender represents diversity. (Other countries, Chile for example, have managed to break that barrier- and I think it's about time we did as well.) And she has never once flinched from defending the rights of different minorities.

Also... and I don't consider it terribly relevant... but she actually is part Native American. The who story that she lied about that was fake and concocted by Republicans. It's on her mother's side. And she never took money for it. She never got financial aid over it. She never was hired on the basis of it. That was all a lie.

Regarding charisma.. I understand the appeal. But I do think it is the least important thing in a president. Both Bush Jr.  and Trump basically won on the basis of charisma. but proved to be incredibly incompetent in nearly every other way. Reagan had tons of charisma, but instituted policies that were damaging. Warren may not be as charismatic as you would like, but she has always fought on the right side, never been afraid to stand up and speak out for what she believes in. She's a strong person who stands up to opposition and has in depth understanding of the workings of our country. Everything Sanders espoused she has worked toward.

I really think, if you liked Sanders--  you might like Elizabeth Warren. She's basically Sanders in a skirt, with a little more diplomacy to her, but just as much ethics and moxy.

I don't find her boring at all. Read her autobiography. It's fascinating. She's had three successful careers. She's an independent thinker and highly intelligent. Everything she's ever done or said indicates that she cares deeply about bettering this country. She's outspoken and she's never compromised herself. I can't see what there is not to like.

Next election I will probably do what I did last year - vote for an independent candidate. If Elizabeth Warren is running, I'll be sure to read up on her.

Sorry about the video. I tried watching videos at the library, but my laptop battery burned out and I don't have the money to fix it.

Last week I got a part-time job for which I applied in July. I did the math and compared it to the job I lost to Obamacare. One-third the wages, and no insurance for either of us, of course.

Again, I'm not the kind to blame minorities, religious groups, or immigrants, documented or undocumented. Nor do I justify the emotions or behavior of those who do.

I just think that white supremacists look for opportunities in these people, just as shady contractors head for storm-damaged neighborhoods.


Interesting that Warren's age might be an issue. Critics thought Reagan was too old, before he survived a gunshot wound to the chest. But Trump and Hillary Clinton were around the seventy mark last year when they ran. Bill Clinton was the first Baby Boomer President, and Obama was even younger. So maybe age isn't as much of a factor anymore.

Lunakat, Warren is like 1/32 native american, she's a nice middle class lady from Oklahoma. Republicans mangled the story a bit, yes, but come on - she isn't a minority.
She's cool otherwise.

As for age, I think in general anyone running for office at 70 or older is really pushing it tbh. Just health wise or whatever - there's so many more factors that become a risk at that age. It think the youngest someone can be is 45? I don't know where I'm getting that, but I read it somewhere, can't remember where.

There is a minimum age. I guess you weren't too keen on Sanders then.

Yes-- she never claimed otherwise. The Republicans didn't just mangle that story-- they completely made it up. But it is something in her family background.

Like I said though... I think she qualifies as bringing diversity, not for her ethnicity, but for her gender.

I know how it's meant, but reading that the mere gender of someone can bring in some diversity really sounds silly to me...

Also, there will probably be no credible candidate for an election in the US running on a "socialist ticket". Most of the Cuban immigrant vote will go to the opponent (happy Republicans, then) and I can imagine quite a few of the other Latino vote as well. Among the Asian electorate as well, such a candidate would have trouble (Mainland Chinese, Taiwanese, Koreans...).

In Germany, people who fled East-Germany or the UdSSR are the staunchest supporters of the conservative party (the two main parties are the conservative party and the social democrats). In Israel the once strong left (socialist) party dwindled down to single digits after the influx of Jews from the former communist states in East Europe. People who have negative experiences with communism tend not vote for socialist parties (understandably, huh).

Also, I have the impression that people throw around the term 'socialism' without knowing what it actually means. Or does Sanders really want to replace capitalism with an egalitarian, class-less society? Does he propose a collective ownership-system (like kolkhozes in the Soviet Union?)?
I think he wants a welfare state (makes sense, most other developed countries have one, heck, China is building up one right now), he wants a fairer society, but he doesn't want communism or something like that.

People here are very easily throwing the term socialism around with communism, it reads like something out of some bad cliff notes summation of like who the hell knows what.
In the good old days, it was communism which was the enemy, now it is Islam and Muslims. Keep up, Miss G , with our prejudices lol! They do tend to convene though and communism is always bad, Somehow socialism gets thrown in... I have no idea how it ties in... I'm still trying to figure it out myself.

Yeah, I think I want a pregnant women go color with a lot of tattoos to be president actually. Not kidding. I mean, it can be a man too. He can be pregnant , that's ok.
We need different types of backgrounds and class and gender as the 'norm', because that *is* the 'norm'. We need to shake things up. Democrats are so boring, wtf happened to their spine. In general so many politicians are like that. I think that's why people liked Trump. Hell, some of the people who voted for him voted for Obama. They wanted someone hungry and lean and nonconventional. We need more people like that. I mean, people who actually give a shit about the country and not just lining their pockets (i.e. advertising for their kids businesses/clothing lines etc)

Anyone see SNL btw, with the Spicer stuff? It's freaking amazing. Melissa is amazing. I haven't liked SNL in forever, but her Spicer imitation is so good, it's almost scary. At least the guy can take a joke, which is something. This is the same man who was having some weird war with dipsy dots few years back, wtf Spicy , get it together LOL.

Lunakat wrote:

There is a minimum age. I guess you weren't too keen on Sanders then.

Yes-- she never claimed otherwise. The Republicans didn't just mangle that story-- they completely made it up. But it is something in her family background.

Like I said though... I think she qualifies as bringing diversity, not for her ethnicity, but for her gender.

I honestly couldn't care less about gender. I just want someone to be real with me, which of course is hard with politics. But I am not dismissive of her.
I did like Bernie. Not as much as my family... btw , 2 of my siblings are in the Navy and were Bernhards. They still are. As is my other sister who is not in the Navy. Me, I loved him but I always knew the country was NOT ready for him. The country isn't ready for uncomfortable options which might be reality, in the form of possibility. Some were, a lot were. But you know, I think you have to remember, the man is out there with some of his ideas (good ones), he asked for people to put forth their vision (a lot just want to slink back to the good ol' days), he was Jewish but didn't want to work with AIPAC (major points off), and just didn't backpat and reassure people that it would all be ok. Unfortunately a lot wanted that. Bernie was a bad ass. Our country not being ready for someone like that reflects badly on us. We went with the seemingly outspoken but lying guy who just made empty promises. The used car salesman. The reality star.
The guy who is like what a millionaire is supposed to look like, who looks like because he's rich he might give them a job?

As an aside, my parents somehow ended up with a membership to the Mar-a-lago years back. Hell if I know how , it was through some of my dad's work and being invited. I remember them going a few times and my mother coming back fuming. She was like, It's like a private birthday party for him! Every day or something! He checks to see if you're eating enough caviar and then looks mad all the time if you are or if you're not!
The stories were surreal.
Damn, we live in interesting times.

Well, if the country isn't ready for Bernie, they may not be ready for Warren either. She's about as real and honest and down with integrity as it gets.

Actually-- a lot of sanders supporters voted for Trump. I personally know three. They just wanted an outsider-- they didn't care who it was. I think that's very superficial, but I'm not them. It's just so odd because there couldn't be two people more diametrically opposed than Trump and Sanders on any significant issue.

Really? How positively odd and yet interesting!
I think the term 'anti-establisment' was a catch phrase but also what people wanted ultimately.

I mean I get it, just didn't realize it would manifest in such a surreal way lol

Most people don't research. They tend to
Just rely on what they hear.

I agree, most people don't want to do the research. It can be overwhelming, but it's as simple as looking up voting records for someone already in public office, visiting a website, looking people up on Wikipedia, or searching their name under "news."

Locally, Bernie Sanders carried one or two districts in the primary. The area that voted for him was inner-city, poor and predominately black. Business owners actually painted murals of Sanders on buildings facing heavy traffic.

Lunakat wrote:

Actually-- a lot of sanders supporters voted for Trump. I personally know three. They just wanted an outsider-- they didn't care who it was. I think that's very superficial, but I'm not them. It's just so odd because there couldn't be two people more diametrically opposed than Trump and Sanders on any significant issue.

ewww, ewww, EWWWWW!

In Germany we call this kind of voters "protest voters", they usually vote for fringe parties with radical aims ("no matter whether left or right, as long as they are radical").
But I thought Sander supporters were mainly leftish college kids, I assumed they were to smart* to fall into the "protest voter"-trap :/



*yeah, I know that going to college doesn't equate with being intelligent