Tools, handcrafts and weapons

@Embala: the one issue reminded me of V the Visitors:
http://flashbak.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/v7.png

Here's something I've been pondering for a while now.
Does anyone know where Moonshade gets the dye for the purple she seems to like so much? The colour sure looks familiar; a special agreement with Pike that she gets to use all the bad dreamberries?

Wikipedia says "Vegetal-tanned hide is not very flexible and is used for luggage, furniture, footwear, belts, and other clothing accessories." I guess Moonshade uses either brains or urine.

"That was a great hunt! Now let's line up and help Moonshade with the tanning process... "

In Dreamtime Moonshade has a sort of basin she stores the hides in. Maybe every time Someone needs to "go" - and is near the basin - he or she just goes there.
Funnily enough, the only time we've ever seen that rather... unpleasant... part of the process it was as a punishment.

Redhead Ember wrote:

Here's something I've been pondering for a while now.
Does anyone know where Moonshade gets the dye for the purple she seems to like so much? The colour sure looks familiar; a special agreement with Pike that she gets to use all the bad dreamberries?

All the 5 fingered paw-flowers that Skywise and Cutter went through to try to find a 4 fingered one? There was a enough....

I've been reading this topic with interest but had nothing to contribute until now. The mention of dreamberries made me think - the World of Two Moons is a fantasy world, with plants like dreamberries, whistling leaves, strangleweed... and five-fingered paw-flowers. So I suppose it would be possible for a variety of plants to exist that give vibrant dyes and help tan soft leathers.

(I also suspect there is some kind of contraceptive plant in existence, considering the size of the human families.)

Vegetable dyes tend to be fugitive. Maybe Moonshade has an additional formula to keep multicolor clothes (Nightfall's orange and green, for example) from running together.

I always thought that was separate pieces of leather sewn together...

I think Trollbabe meant that the colors would run together when the clothes are washed... or get wet otherwise...

Which brings to my mind that I don't recall any scene of elves washing their clothes... maybe they never do!

Vurdah was washing Skywise's clothes in Heart's Ways, but of course that could've been the first time they ever got washed.

Right. I wasn't paying attention.

I thought it was interesting that Skywise had bright red underpants in that story. One of the advantages of discovering the Sun Village might have been moth-fabric underwear.

Maybe the Trolls, and the Troll caverns, yield some minerals that produce leather dyes less fugitive than vegetable colors like berry juice.

Let's be honest. Skywise was wearing a red speedo.

Dunno, dont really care... dont usually check guys out, especially when there are more shapely creatures around... (ducks for cover).

Did this imply they had soap or scented something or other? Generally "doggy rolled in something" type smells dont go away with just water. Not easily, at least.

They may have had plants containing saponins, the deodorant mineral potassium aluminum sulfate, or possibly distilled vinegar. If the Sun Folk had vinegar, they would have also had alcohol. I'm not sure they did until they heard of dreamberry wine.

The Trolls had "cleanstone", which I took to mean pulverized lime, another product to which the Sun Folk might have had access.

It came up the other day in the Dolling thread, discussion about brightmetal. I have my theories, but is there any 'canon WaRP approved" explaination behind it being called "bright" besides not being bronze or rusty?

Ive been reading on metals and whatnot, nickle is what generates thr highest bright luster in earth metals. Nickle steels are generally bright white, while carbon steels without nickle, chrome, or other alloys are usually dark. The highest carbon steel, ironically called "cast iron" is extremely dark, as the carbon is so high it starts to precipitate out of the grains, and a 10 series carbon steel mixed (forge welded) with a high nickle-low carbon steel will have high contrast when etched to show the grain structure.

Anyway, if there isnt an "official" explaination, I figure the case could be made that the trolls (who have at least one meteorite in possession, the lodestone) may have found a few nickle bearing meteorites or ore deposites and found they preferred steel made of that material, versus rapidly rusting dark plain carbon steels.

You are the Blacksmith here, you must know best, what "brightmetal" is. I simply thought of steel being bright metal. I do not remember reading something about the 'canon WaRP approved" explaination.

Quote :

I do not remember reading something about the 'canon WaRP approved" explaination.

dito

I agree with the "brightmetal = steel" opinion.

This reminds me of pots and pans.  There are one or two stories in which Wolfriders mentioned cooking pots, which Wolfriders actually would not have used.  They ate raw meat, and had to be careful not to draw attention to their holts with fire and smoke.

Trolls, Gliders and Sunfolk used metal and ceramic pots.  On the Scroll of Colors, someone posted a picture drawn by Wendy Pini on a bathroom wall, of Ember using a chamberpot.  The caption was something like "A bold tot on a cold gold pot."  I took it to mean a gold-plated metal or ceramic pot.  As much as Austin Powers would like to own one, a solid gold toilet would be impractically heavy.

Generally the Sun Folk used ceramic pots.  Perhaps they saved fuel by harnessing the volcano's heat to fire the pots.  Other cookware might have been made from non-ferrous metals.

I wonder what kind of plants feed the caterpillars which produce "moth-fabric" silk?  Here on Earth, sericulture depends upon mulberry leaves.  The caterpillars of Sorrow's End had to eat some kind of desert plant that was still available during long droughts.

I can also see the Wolfriders just going with what the Trolls called it, so they might not have known any difference. Im always interested in the secretive Troll Culture and, in this case, wonder what the metal was "bright" compared to. Could be a reference to its ability to be made into mirrors to reflect flame light down long tunnels, could be that they had "dark metal" such as lead or cast iron that had other uses... Im just curious.

We see torches in some of the halls of the Trolls in their inner domain. They kind of look like gas lights, but fat/oil lamps are perfectly within tech level, except that if the Trolls are having to trade for meat from the surface, what oil/fat are they using? I know nothing about slugs, as to their excess energy storage, but I cant imagine there would be that much extra to have lamps lit full time all the time as depicted.

Natural gas would be a gut reaction, but as Ive said before it seems as though there isnt all that much tectonic actiity, with the exception of one single volcano. The trolls never reference cave-ins as youd expect with thousands of years of tunneling, and the pathways between father tree and frozen mountains seem to remain open over the course of 8000 years or more. Without the churning of organics into the deep pressures of far underground, you wouldnt get fossil fuels like coal and crude oil, or natural gas. I havent seen all that much evidence of such things illustrated. Wood is burned in place of coal for Two-Edge's steam engines, theres chemistry in gunpowder (which doesnt strictly require fossil fuels), but I dont see anything else, is there? If someone remembers something, remind me.

There is at least one primitive-capable gas source, in bio-gas, i.e. methane, produced from waste. After a few explosions from miner's sparking pickaxes and forge fires, they'd figure out they need to manage it, likely by burning it off, which would then produce light. It wouldnt be too far fetched to extend that to using it for heating and lighting. Filter it through enough cleanstone/limestone/sand/whatever and youd get rid of the smell before burning it (methane is oderless). All biological waste, including uneaten cave slugs and missing pieces of miners clogging up the mineshafts, could be fed into a central waste chamber to break down into nice, flammable, renewable methane. It would also scale with the population, after a battle or plague, the community would shrink and not need as much light, requiring less gas, and more gas generated by a larger population.

While this would also help with the forges, low pressure methane might not have enough oomph to forge steel or reduce ores, at least without an oxygen source. This would also be nice for miners far from surface vents, but I havent figured out anything naturally occuring that generates any significant amounts of oxygen, except possibly an exotic form of lithium oxide or something... Definately not hydrated lime....

One advantage Trolls have underground is sensitivity to light. We use lamps and torches, but not as much as a human castle or cavern would employ. We are also acclimated to the cold temperature and damp air underground. Methane gas makes sense for our needs.

This discussion of fuel reminds me of a problem I have had with underground fires. How do cave-dwellers keep the sight and smell of smoke from drawing attention to their activities?

Trollbabe wrote:

One advantage Trolls have underground is sensitivity to light.  We use lamps and torches, but not as much as a human castle or cavern would employ.  We are also acclimated to the cold temperature and damp air underground.  Methane gas makes sense for our needs.

This discussion of fuel reminds me of a problem I have had with underground fires.  How do cave-dwellers keep the sight and smell of smoke from drawing attention to their activities?

I researched some of this years ago when I tried to make a Troll Quest MMO game. What I came up with:

a) Lighting is too expensive to use for normal, everyday, general purposes. The king would want every luxury (and security) and would have lighting near the throne, but miles away in mines and whatnot, there would need to be an efficient way to keep track of everything besides 'memory'. I was going to have the Trolls be able to 'see' around them and 'see' signs for intersections. The justification for it was braille-like carvings in the floor, that sensitive feet would be able to read without light or without taking one's hands off a tool or cart. This would also keep others from understanding where they were any better than a troll. No basis in EQ, but it made sense to me.

b) ventilation is a big issue for any underground creature. We have ground squirrels in the local desert and they have adapted to living up to 9 months underground without coming up much. They only get moisture from green plants (which are only out for 3 months) and standing water, which they usually drowned in if it's deeper than half an inch. Their lungs, however, are developed to work well underground sealed from the surface for months, and their kidneys are extremely efficient to reduce dehydration. This also allows them to sprint across the ground quickly (they are favored by hawks and eagles) and can still walk/run back to their homes after being injured (seems nothing but getting run over or eaten kills them). They were so successful around here they almost overrun the countryside, until a freak storm dumped a foot of snow right after they came out of hibernation and they froze to death. Hardly see them anymore.

Anyway, point being that underground creatures adapt to conditions. Trolls would likely have much more efficient lungs than over-dwellers.

c) Heat rises. Heat from the forges would be great, and we have seen a shaft-like room with the forges when Cutter served his penance. A shaft-like room would allow for updraft powered clearing of forge fumes, and certain layouts of other underground structures could use this to pull fresh air through the rest of the tunnels. I figure it would be simple for the trolls to disguise the inlets as coarse rock formations. As to the outlets, Id think folds in high cliff faces, perhaps on the lee side of hills that commonly have clouds and rain, would obscure the smoke.

d) There is a method used for centuries in the middle east that uses wind, channeled through ducts into underground rooms, with natural springs spraying through the airflow to produce a swamp cooler effect. Besides the ability to provide any cooling needed, spraying smoke or powders in an air stream can effectively filter it out, scrubbing the air of anything unwanted and allowing the air to pass. Also, there is a way to use falling water to pump air using a trompe, which would also scrub smoke and debris (but not change the oxygen content, so using one to oxygenate a forge from scavenged forge fumes would be counter-productive). A trompe has been used for powering forges in the past real world.

e) Living underground, the trolls would have access to all manner of water power, much like ancient Rome, which ran all sorts of deep mines even below water tables. Water wheels, trompes, swamp cooling, and other things would be well within their technology level.

On a side note, troll tunnels would generally be slanted for drainage, perhaps with gutters to keep the path dry. As to sanitation, and whether they would just hold it until they got to a proper area or relieve themselves wherever and let the drains carry it would be up to culture and biology. My head canon encompasses a sloped bathing/etc area of 'cleanstone'/limestone with various ability to dump the used material into old mine shafts or unused caverns. For that matter when you have a group of long-lived intellegent beings watching stalagmites grow, some form of recycling over the centuries might have developed, and for that matter, waste might be valued for (above listed reasons in an earlier post about tanning leather) and for fertilizer (The Martian anyone?

Another reason tunnels would be slanted is to aid in carting or packing away tailings. They wouldn't be steep, but they wouldn't be slanted such that they would have to pack the tailings uphill. The map I generated encompassed all but the mist-scrubbers and trompe in it, and had all sorts of smoke-vents in hard to find places (but not impossible, as a feature, though it would have taken climbing equipment not to fall to your death if you found one and decided to follow it). It was fun to design.

WOW! That is so cool! I like to read about the forge topic. Technology is not my thing to think about, but important it is when you think up stories or draw pictures.

interesting stuff you told about those ground squirrels.

In "The Martian", the astronaut grows potatoes in human feces that have not been composted. This is a movie about an extreme survival situation, so it's accepted by the audience.

In real life, gardeners avoid using human feces and manure from either carnivores or omnivores, as they tend to carry disease. Composted manure from healthy herbivores is safest for gardening. I say "composted" because the fresh stuff can be full of pesky weed seeds.

We Trolls use pulverized dolomitic limestone to "salt" our own waste. We can use it later for compost, but we may leave it buried for decades before doing so. (FWIW Trolls who harvest old latrine pits have reported finding coins and tools dropped by mistake.) Larger Troll communities may have sewage treatment complexes on the surface, but only if they are far enough away from humans or Elves to draw attention.

Prize fungus farmers have their own secret formulas for growing a wide variety of edible crops, as well as some fungi that glow in the dark. They gather ingredients above ground at night time.

As a Troll, I prefer old growth forests with multiple canopies of vegetation. This allows us to grow and harvest a wide variety of foods in the same place, at different levels.