Delayed/Cancelled Recognition

manga wrote:

Let me ask you this: the elves live forever (or reallllllly long times). They appear to have perfect pregnancies with none of the dangers or complications we humans can have and ludicrously easy births*. And their attitude towards sex is so open they don't hold to species barriers, let alone gender ones. It means less to them than having a coffee with someone you don't like.

In light of this, why should they care? What's a quick roll in the furs and a decade or two of child-care (with none of the isolated house-wife crap to deal with too)? Especially when you factor in that that they don't have enough numbers to satisfy the 50/500 rule of species survival.

Exactly! I don't think the joining felt like a molesting for Dewshine either, think they were both equally insecure about it, and relived to be free from the pain that is unanswered recognizion.

As you say, their numbers are so few, so I think almost everyone welcomes a new life.

Dewshine said "I'll be a wolfrider and have a wolfrider's cub- or I'll die"... or something to that effect. She wasn't really okay with giving birth to Tyldak's baby until Scouter gave her that little speech.

She even asks Leetah to help her fight it- but Leetah responds that recognition is a "blessing" because it brings new life. So, I think, Leetah refuses to help her? Or was it just that she thought she couldn't help her and was trying to make the best of it?

I saw it more as a way to make her think a little about it, don't refuse it until you have thought it through.

Maybe Scouter's reassurance helped her realise that her child would be a Wolfrider's cub, even if the sire wasn't a Wolfrider.

Lunakat wrote:

Dewshine said "I'll be a wolfrider and have a wolfrider's cub- or I'll die"... or something to that effect. She wasn't really okay with giving birth to Tyldak's baby until Scouter gave her that little speech.?

Yep, she feels pretty clearly violated. I agree that Leetah probably didn't think it was possible to deny Recognition. In fact, I'm going to be honest. I don't think that Leetah would have had the imagination to consider it. She never thought of changing DNA or shaping flesh until someone else suggested it. She's a dear, but very sensible, not a fantasizer.

I just reread the same issue, and now I'm wondering if it would even have been possible with anyone other than Ember. She herself says she found it within herself to refuse. It's possible this is unique to her, and if Teir had recognized, say, Yun, they would have been unable to reverse it.

Redhead Ember wrote:

Maybe Scouter's reassurance helped her realise that her child would be a Wolfrider's cub, even if the sire wasn't a Wolfrider.

Mmmm :-) And she wouldn't be alone with the parenting, even if the whole giving birth within the tribe does feel kind of safe.

kathleen3.0 wrote:

I just reread the same issue, and now I'm wondering if it would even have been possible with anyone other than Ember. She herself says she found it within herself to refuse. It's possible this is unique to her, and if Teir had recognized, say, Yun, they would have been unable to reverse it.

I only read the issue once when it first came out, but that was the feeling I got, too. It seems like a lot was made of Ember having the power to refuse Recognition inside herself, a power it was implied that she got from Leetah when Leetah denied her Recognition, which I don't think was particularly apparent at the time. Maybe because she didn't seem to have the severe effects that Dewshine and Tyldak did even though she and Cutter put off Recognition longer?

It also seems like it was mentioned that the healing maybe didn't shut-off Recognition, but only muted it, so they can reverse the effect and succumb when it suits them.

To me this also seems to tie to the thread about the Future Quest and the palace or the way. It seems like the full blood elves are gaining back some of their shape-shifting and having more control of their biology. Ember is denying Recognition (yeah - I know she's not full-blood. Latent healing ability?) Leetah and Skywise are holding back on the effects of the palace to change them. I feel like it will get to a turning point where the more wolf-blooded elves will have to make a choice to either get rid of the DNA that holds them to the world and their shapes or...die? Or live in a timeless prison, as maybe Cutter and Strongbow are doing? I can definitely see both of them volunteering for some kind of torture like that to protect the rest.

Outlier wrote:

it was implied that she got from Leetah when Leetah denied her Recognition, which I don't think was particularly apparent at the time. Maybe because she didn't seem to have the severe effects that Dewshine and Tyldak did even though she and Cutter put off Recognition longer?

That would make sense. And since Treestump and Rillfisher were by all accounts quite happy to Recognize each other, Dewshine would not have inherited such a power.

manga wrote:

And their attitude towards sex is so open they don't hold to species barriers, let alone gender ones.  It means less to them than having a coffee with someone you don't like.

If they dislike/hate each other they certainly won't have a tumble in the furs (I don't see any Wolfrider having sex with Winnie, with the exception of Skywise, maybe).

In most cases Recognition is a happy-happy event, but if it's not, it's basically rape. I never really liked it.

Imagine if Strongbow had recognized Winnowill. Obviously, Tyldak's treatment of Dewshine was nowhere near as harsh, but his attitude towards her was the same.

I was just rereading some stories, and saw the scene where Vaya dies. The lines "...we shared a dance, I won't let you share in this" made me wonder if the Gobacks, shying away from most things magical, inadvertently 'dissected' Recognition into separate parts: the bonding, the sharing, the procreation, the lack of control.... The Wolfriders would initially have no reason to fight Recognition, it was just part of the Way, but the Gobacks, trying to shed themselves of magic and stumbled on ways to suppress parts of Recognition, modify the situations where parts of it work and don't work.... I'm not saying that Vaya was recognizing Pike, but after so much time inadvertently 'playing' with things that were not supposed to be, perhaps they found they could choose Recognition or it's constituent parts? We already saw that Tier's magics were not typical of any known Elf, and being of Goback decent (or rather, quite closely Wolfrider, as he'd only be 2 generations after the split)... hmm.. broke my reasoning with that one.

Point being, if Tier can 'make up' magical abilities out of necessity and situation, would any of the Elves' magic be tied to any rules, other than some things are easier than some? Might Magical abilities (including Recognition and other things) simply be available for manipulation by any who wish to put forth the effort to learn?

I just read about Egg returning himself from the dead after his encounter with Timmain, and if I recall correctly, Leetah basically killed herself, healed herself of a mortal wound, and resumed normal living... then went on and healed a relatively less grievous wound with One Eye, who by all rights should have survived with her experience, but he wanted to be free and join the Palace.... Recognition should be much easier to manipulate.

Is there any 'set in stone' rules with any of the Elves' magic?

Miss Gillespie wrote:

In most cases Recognition is a happy-happy event, but if it's not, it's basically rape. I never really liked it.

Rape AND forced empregnation. With all your tribemates telling you to just suck it up and get on with it because we need more cubs...

Recognition is a horror movie, man!

So where would that put Leetah and Cutter?

But seriously, what's 20 years out of eternity to continue the species? Parenthood doesn't rewrite your life for them the way it does us. Not that it doesn't affect them - we've seen how Leetah has grown - but Nightfall, who hungered so much for a child, and Dewshine, whose Recognition was an unpleasant shock, are both centuries past their children's youth and on to new adventures.

However, much like unplanned pregnancies in our own society, Recognition ties you permanently to someone you might neither like, nor respect. Furthermore, it's a psychic bond. Redlance and Nightfall state just post Palace War that they've taken that bond themselves, but they clearly wanted Recognition for that reason, as well as for the kid's sake. Dewshine and Tyldak maintain a psychic bond despite years of separation.

and it does make you feel fondness for them...remember Dewshines "and more...something ELSE that is mine is trapped here!"

so recognition is probably like endorphines on crack, AND meth, AND hyperspeed.

Not sure your points are holding up. "Final Quest" has made the point that Dart and Serrin are strangers now. There is definitely a bond but it seems to take nurturing to endure. And Dewshine and Tyldak disproved the "now you're permanently tied" in the OQ when they walked away from each other after answering the call - not to mention Tyldak leaving newly pregnant Dewshine to the attacking trolls.

Yes, Dewshine felt something still for Tyldak in SABM but that was only three years later, not necessarily time enough for the bond to die completely.

I'm not disagreeing that Recognition isn't all sunshine and roses but I think you're using terms that are far too strong.

(Never gonna forgive it if Strongbow and Moonshade split.)

It seems it can be awesome, okay or terrible, depending on the circumstances. I think it's okay that not all aspects of being a conehead alien descendent are great. Some seem to suck. I'm down with that.

I think that while Recognition is a strong bonding-force its nowhere near as strong as that of love.
In OQ6 it's stated how the bonding power of Recogntion was replaced by the bonding power of love between Cutter and Leetah.
Dewshine and Tyldak chose to not even try to get to the 'love' bit, probably because Dewshine's bond of love with Scouter was already so strong. On the other hand; that same bond of love between Dewshine and Scouter was what allowed love to grow between Dewshine and Tyleet.
Dart likely loved Serrin - and Talmah. However, his love for Shushen - and grief over his death - was stronger than that love.

Maybe this; Bond of Love being way, way stronger than Bond of Recognition is also why Bearclaw seemingly were able to get over other lifemates and cubs dying, but as soon as Joyleaf died he went suicidal. Long before their Recognition the love-bond between the two of them had already grown incredibly strong so strong, in fact, that their lengthy spat was seen as a huge issue by the entire tribe. While we of course don't know anything about Bearclaw's other lifemates, it's entirely possible that until they recognized they'd just been tribemates.
Of course this could mean that if Cutter and Leetah had known and loved each other before they recognized, then nothing could've helped Cutter when Leetah disappeared in the Palace.

Yeah, I don't think Recognition is a particularly strong bonding force. Seems like it would be more like a terrible itch or a craving you just can't kick. It just kind of lives in the back of your mind until you take care of it.

I also think calling it rape is applying our cultural biases to it. Knowing that at any moment you will be struck with an overpowering desire for someone not of your choosing is going to make sexual intimacy mean less, and that's what we see with the elves. There's no point in placing a high value on "saving yourself" for a particular someone or having sexual fidelity when neither of those are the individual's choice. Sharing the furs is just a pleasant way to kill some time.

It makes me think of how stupid I always thought it was in some fairy tales when they had a dragon that would be eating virgins. I gotta solution to that.

Well, Outlier, the problem to your solution is it's not much better than the probem when you consider the question of what age to apply it.

Too true. And I did think of that argument soon after I posted. I guess to me, that would be one of the benefits of deemphasizing the importance of sex - having it be more of the decision of the individual when they were ready for sex than a certain age or societal pressure (or whether they might be dragon-fodder.) Until someone starts thinking they WANT to change it, sexual status should not even be an issue.

I think of all the people I knew in college who just saw it as something to get over with that they didn't seem to care with who. I always thought that was sad.

On the other hand, if sex was recognized as a significant act and people actually held off until they were married, you'd get the same effect.

(Somehow this reminds me of the discussions about a certain recent Games of Thrones episode...)

Even though EQ is a fantasy comic and it's main protagonists are not humans; the authors are humans, the readership are humans. There are aspects of the elves, that showed readers how our live can be better, too. Like welcoming interracial couples, homosexuality, to forgive etc.

And then it shows that, "marriage" arranges by a higher force is something to be accepted, even if it's just for procreation

The comics are not an objective documentary but they exist with our world as a backdrop